Cartel war in Puerto Vallarta today

[am1]

If only the demand would stop that cartels would go away or maybe not so easy now as they would go into other high profit illegal activities. But if only there was never any demand they would be no cartels or not like we have now.

 

[dioxide45]

If only the demand would stop that cartels would go away or maybe not so easy now as they would go into other high profit illegal activities. But if only there was never any demand they would be no cartels or not like we have now.

Demand is mostly caused by addiction. It isn't like the demand can just be turned off. Many drugs are intentionally laced to make them more addictive. It seems that you are blaming the addicts? You know, people with a disease? There's a reason addiction isn't a crime.

 

[jp10558]

Yet, their lives are oftentimes nowadays made miserable, perhaps even unlivable, by the cartels. And how do the cartels become so wealthy, so powerful? American consumers having an insatiable lust for their drugs.

I hate American drug abusers with a passion. Good thing I'm not a judge.

If only the demand would stop that cartels would go away or maybe not so easy now as they would go into other high profit illegal activities. But if only there was never any demand they would be no cartels or not like we have now.

Personally I think Alcohol and prohibition are instructive. Much as we might not like people becoming addicts, we allow people to do all sorts of things that are bad for them for good reasons of personal liberty. The simple solution IMHO would be like Alcohol... give out licenses and tax it, and have it sold at Wal-Mart etc. Guess what - I doubt Mexican Cartels could out compete in price, and almost no one would take black market over legal market if available. QA and safety would also likely go up.

 

[Eric B]

While we're on the subject of correcting all the world's problems, would it be possible for OP (@easyrider) to fix the spelling of "today" in the title of the thread. I keep getting emails for posts about some "toady" and it's quite distracting....

[Moderator Note: Ask - for spelling/typo corrections - and you shall receive.] <<SueDonJ

 

[andre10056]

And now the lust to lose money in a timeshare scam.

I've read that this or that cartel is involved with timeshare scams. To the extent that it reflects an orientation about how pathetic and stupid their gringo customers are, that might make some sense. Imagine telling someone non-stop lies and getting that person to hand you a $40,000 check! That would be of interest to any criminal type.

However, the cartels know drugs. Obviously, they'll continue to sneak their encapsulated, non-dog-detectable drugs over the border in vehicles. They'll continue to use container ships as long as only about 2% of containers are inspected. They've probably already developed drone means of getting stuff across the border. Submarines. Boat transfers from Mexican "fishing" boats to American registered "fishing" boats out in the Pacific. Etc., etc., etc. So why would they branch out into something new?

Would a contract killer crew that makes tons of money doing contract killings branch out into timeshare sales? Possible although unlikely.

I've read that they need money laundering. But bitcoin (or whatever cryptocurrency) is the perfect money laundering (and paying bribes) mechanism. Such "branching out onto other criminality" is not at this point needed.

I will say this, however. Timeshares people are lied to and THINK they're getting something different from what they ultimately find out they get. Drugs, on the other hand, the abuser knows exactly what he (or she) is getting and that's PRECISELY what they want.

Even kids know that drugs are poison. And yet, so many believe they won't have an addict's problems. Other people may, but not them. I'm not sure how people can so readily delude themselves.

 

[andre10056]

Personally I think Alcohol and prohibition are instructive. Much as we might not like people becoming addicts, we allow people to do all sorts of things that are bad for them for good reasons of personal liberty. The simple solution IMHO would be like Alcohol... give out licenses and tax it, and have it sold at Wal-Mart etc. Guess what - I doubt Mexican Cartels could out compete in price, and almost no one would take black market over legal market if available. QA and safety would also likely go up.

So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?

Please note that the average person a good ways towards becoming an addict will oftentimes clean out his parents' life savings to buy drugs.

Then, when they do become addicts and/or are ultimately thrown out of the house due to their having stolen whatever money or valuables that can be sold for money, there is no indignity they won't stoop to in order to generate funds. If they're strong, they'll oftentimes use extreme violence in order to steal someone's wallet or whatever. When I was in Pittsburgh, I often saw big guys emerging from alleys counting out bills.

Also when I was in Pittsburgh, you'd see the addicts (mostly all white if you'd like to know) sprawled out on the sidewalk or even in the middle of the street. The fire department personnel would come to administer Narcan but would first restrain the addict because an addict would most often become violently enraged at someone having disturbed their drug-induced "bliss".

Those fire department personnel told me a horror story about what a drug addict did to a do-gooder ladies Christian group who intervened and administered Narcan to that addict while sprawled out somewhere.

 

[jp10558]

So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?

Yes. I think if you want to do drugs, and you do so in private areas - you do you. Otherwise we get on quite the slippery slope on who decides what's best for adults. I don't think what we've been doing has been working, and again, prohibition we had gangster fights in major cities over alcohol, now we have them over other drugs, but not alcohol anymore. We've proved there's a LOT of harm, like this cartel war in Mexico, but also all over the US trying what we've been trying. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results is quipped to be insanity.

Please note that the average person a good ways towards becoming an addict will oftentimes clean out his parents' life savings to buy drugs.

And I've seen people do the same gambling, or just to buy random junk. What you miss is when the drugs are illegal - there's a lot less help because people are scared to admit to breaking the law. We've got patches to help you stop smoking for instance. But you can't just go buy methadone, and it's not like we're developing anything to help people quit.

Then, when they do become addicts and/or are ultimately thrown out of the house due to their having stolen whatever money or valuables that can be sold for money, there is no indignity they won't stoop to in order to generate funds. If they're strong, they'll oftentimes use extreme violence in order to steal someone's wallet or whatever. When I was in Pittsburgh, I often saw big guys emerging from alleys counting out bills.

Ok, and muggings will happen because people lost their jobs too. Or couldn't get a good enough job so decided being a dealer was a quick way to lots of money. Muggings and violence and stealing are already against the law, and you're assuming that all addicts will run out of money and start mugging people. I am suggesting that lowering the prices a lot by making it so legitimate stores can sell them would shrink the number of people going broke. I don't think the reason smokers aren't mugging people for the next pack is because smoking addicts are more moral, I think it's because as much as cigarettes cost now, they're no where near the costs for illegal drugs and people can mostly afford enough to not go into withdrawal.

Also when I was in Pittsburgh, you'd see the addicts (mostly all white if you'd like to know) sprawled out on the sidewalk or even in the middle of the street. The fire department personnel would come to administer Narcan but would first restrain the addict because an addict would most often become violently enraged at someone having disturbed their drug-induced "bliss".

And we've seen people get violent when a drunken party is broken up or a bar closed before they'd like. The issue is behavior, not the drug. If they were in the equivalent of a bar or at home, why would anyone disturb their "bliss"? And should we then not care if someone behaves that way but isn't using an illegal drug?

I just think that trying to prohibit what people want to do doesn't work. Decrying people doing things you don't like doesn't do much either. People are clever and even North Korean style lockdowns haven't prevented all contraband from getting in or out. And I don't know why we'd think we can get rid of black market demand now when we couldn't for the last hundred years.

 

[Snazzylass]

So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?

Please note that the average person a good ways towards becoming an addict will oftentimes clean out his parents' life savings to buy drugs.

Then, when they do become addicts and/or are ultimately thrown out of the house due to their having stolen whatever money or valuables that can be sold for money, there is no indignity they won't stoop to in order to generate funds. If they're strong, they'll oftentimes use extreme violence in order to steal someone's wallet or whatever. When I was in Pittsburgh, I often saw big guys emerging from alleys counting out bills.

Also when I was in Pittsburgh, you'd see the addicts (mostly all white if you'd like to know) sprawled out on the sidewalk or even in the middle of the street. The fire department personnel would come to administer Narcan but would first restrain the addict because an addict would most often become violently enraged at someone having disturbed their drug-induced "bliss".

Those fire department personnel told me a horror story about what a drug addict did to a do-gooder ladies Christian group who intervened and administered Narcan to that addict while sprawled out somewhere.

another post with which I agree but don't want to hit the like button. My only comment is you can remove the word, "Pittsburgh" and replace just about any US city. I've seen videos on Insta of Portland, OR & San Francisco of what you are describing. However, I regularly see reports of overdoes in small park across the street from the mayor's office in downtown Indy. A common response is, "there must be a bad batch going around."

 

[Snazzylass]

Personally I think Alcohol and prohibition are instructive. Much as we might not like people becoming addicts, we allow people to do all sorts of things that are bad for them for good reasons of personal liberty. The simple solution IMHO would be like Alcohol... give out licenses and tax it, and have it sold at Wal-Mart etc. Guess what - I doubt Mexican Cartels could out compete in price, and almost no one would take black market over legal market if available. QA and safety would also likely go up.

Is Marijuana legal in your state? Because what you are suggesting has already played out with pot and it sure hasn't worked out like you suggest and what many states must believe.

Yes, it worked with Alcohol for whatever reason, but it sure hasn't worked out with pot. Mexican Cartels absolutely are undercutting the legal price. Keep in mind, they don't have to pay taxes whereas states assume this is going to be a revenue generator like adding a state lottery. It's been tried and it didn't work.

 

[davidvel]

So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?

Please note that the average person a good ways towards becoming an addict will oftentimes clean out his parents' life savings to buy drugs.

Then, when they do become addicts and/or are ultimately thrown out of the house due to their having stolen whatever money or valuables that can be sold for money, there is no indignity they won't stoop to in order to generate funds. If they're strong, they'll oftentimes use extreme violence in order to steal someone's wallet or whatever. When I was in Pittsburgh, I often saw big guys emerging from alleys counting out bills.

Also when I was in Pittsburgh, you'd see the addicts (mostly all white if you'd like to know) sprawled out on the sidewalk or even in the middle of the street. The fire department personnel would come to administer Narcan but would first restrain the addict because an addict would most often become violently enraged at someone having disturbed their drug-induced "bliss".

Those fire department personnel told me a horror story about what a drug addict did to a do-gooder ladies Christian group who intervened and administered Narcan to that addict while sprawled out somewhere.

Fentanyl is legal in the U.S.A., as are morphine and other opioids. Those fire department and physician types administer it daily.

 

[am1]

To reply to all that have gone off the rockers if it was only a matter of personal choice then that is one thing but there is too much baggage to allow people to do what they want. Lots of legal drugs are abused and the people cannot help themselves. There is a public cost to all of it. If there was no demand there would be no one supplying it. Need to be harder on crime from possession, to trafficking to importing. More money should be spent on stopping it at ever step of the way.

 

[andre10056]

Fentanyl is legal in the U.S.A., as are morphine and other opioids. Those fire department and physician types administer it daily.

Perhaps they are but they aren't being sold over the counter at Walmart. There are good reasons why "controlled substances" should be controlled. But you knew that.

 

[TUGBrian]

I dont think there are thousands of parents whos kids have plans to travel to cuba to party in the next few weeks during spring break though.

 

[TUGBrian]

well this thread took an odd turn...

 

[bizaro86]

I dont think there are thousands of parents whos kids have plans to travel to cuba to party in the next few weeks during spring break though.

Not Americans, but plenty of people from other countries have historically taken spring break in Cuba.

 

[geist1223]

Let's make it simple Legalize everything for anyone over 21. Two Rules. If you give Drugs to a Minor you will be Executed. If you hurt anyone else while on Drugs you will be Executed. There is no Trial. Guilt is presumed.

 

[andre10056]

I dont think there are thousands of parents whos kids have plans to travel to cuba to party in the next few weeks during spring break though.

Bottom line, the Mexican people are wonderful. But the cartels are a danger to those same wonderful people as well as visitors. Monitor the news closely.

 

[davidvel]

Perhaps they are but they aren't being sold over the counter at Walmart. There are good reasons why "controlled substances" should be controlled. But you knew that.

Perhaps? You said: "So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?"

I simply noted they are "legalized" in the U.S.A. I never said they were "being sold over the counter at Walmart," nor did your post I responded to. I never said they were not controlled. Not sure what you are babbling about.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

Puerto Vallarta updated
Sunny & 81 F

The airport is again operating [Monday Feb 23]
Most of the flights seem to be domestic - Viva - Volaris - AeroMexico .

The restaurants in the PV Marina are mostly closed - likely due to lack of staff and delivery of supplies.[ I expect more to be open tomorrow]
We did see a few Taxis operating.

Our resort restaurant only has 4 choices today
Burgers - Wings - Chicken Alfredo Pasta -Fish Fillet .

Life is tough
LOL

 

[andre10056]

Perhaps? You said: "So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?"

I simply noted they are "legalized" in the U.S.A. I never said they were "being sold over the counter at Walmart," nor did your post I responded to. I never said they were not controlled. Not sure what you are babbling about.

You responded to my post #31 above in which I responded to someone who advocated that those drugs be sold inexpensively at Walmart. And, because I "replied" to that post, that statement was indeed part of my post (the one you responded to).

But thank you for informing me, in response to my asking, So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?, that I should have instead asked, "So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) no longer be controlled substances?"

That clearly would have added so much to the discussion.

Good catch for which I thank you. You're a TUG Forum legend.

 

[davidvel]

You responded to my post #31 above in which I responded to someone who advocated that those drugs be sold inexpensively at Walmart. And, because I "replied" to that post, that statement was indeed part of my post (the one you responded to).

But thank you for informing me, in response to my asking, So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?, that I should have instead asked, "So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) no longer be controlled substances?"

That clearly would have added so much to the discussion.

Good catch for which I thank you. You're a TUG Forum legend.

You may have be responding to someone else's post regarding Wal Mart but I was not. I was responding to your post and bolded it, that said "So you're advocating that fentanyl and opioids (like heroin) be legalized?"

I responded, "Fentanyl is legal in the U.S.A., as are morphine and other opioids. Those fire department and physician types administer it daily."

Which is still correct, despite you commenting that they were not legal. Yes, you should have said what you meant, not a question that implied an inaccurate premise. My only point was that fentanyl and opioids are legal in the U.S.

Not too confusing. Thank you for the accolades.

 

[Zak0022]

Another view.

Hearing that is quite frightening. Your buddies are safe, I hope. It's definitely best to wait for verified updates because situations like these can change quickly and there are typically a lot of rumors at the beginning. I hope that everything settles down fast and that nobody is harmed.

 

[andre10056]

Hearing that is quite frightening. Your buddies are safe, I hope. It's definitely best to wait for verified updates because situations like these can change quickly and there are typically a lot of rumors at the beginning. I hope that everything settles down fast and that nobody is harmed.

If I were in Mexico right now, I wouldn't have been much concerned about my safety as long as the killing of "El Mencho" (or whatever his ridiculous nickname was) was entirely a Mexican mission. Which I believe is what the Mexicans, appropriately concerned about not divulging their sources and methods, initially reported.

When I was in the service, protecting one's sources and methods and other important intelligence information was paramount.

But not any more apparently. Now the priority is "patting yourself on the back". The Americans wanted everyone to know that they were participants. Apparently, they provided intelligence information, no doubt gleaned from satellite surveillance.

Of course, we all know that satellites could provide such information. But it might have been nice to keep secret that the Americans provided such information in this case. Now there is a greater likelihood that Americans might be targeted. But worse is that the cartels now know that there is a group liaising with Americans in obtaining that information. And they've got the bribe money to insure they'll find out who those people are. And if an example can be made of them, perhaps there won't be others so willing to liaise with American intelligence.

Not to mention the fact that the cartels now know they've got to be far more sensitive about doing things out in the open during daylight that can be picked up by satellites.

It might have been nice to keep one's mouth shut rather than wanting everyone to know as you childishly pat yourself on the back.

 

[Roger830]

But not any more apparently. Now the priority is "patting yourself on the back". The Americans wanted everyone to know that they were participants. Apparently, they provided intelligence information, no doubt gleaned from satellite surveillance.

Of course, we all know that satellites could provide such information. But it might have been nice to keep secret that the Americans provided such information in this case. Now there is a greater likelihood that Americans might be targeted. But worse is that the cartels now know that there is a group liaising with Americans in obtaining that information. And they've got the bribe money to insure they'll find out who those people are. And if an example can be made of them, perhaps there won't be others so willing to liaise with American intelligence.

Not to mention the fact that the cartels now know they've got to be far more sensitive about doing things out in the open during daylight that can be picked up by satellites.

It might have been nice to keep one's mouth shut rather than wanting everyone to know as you childishly pat yourself on the back.

Rather than back patting, perhaps the strategy is to take credit for providing the info so that revenge is not taken on some of the locals that may have been involved.

 

[ondeadlin]

Former federal prosecutor here, which means I've seen a lot of data and research about crime and violence (and, as an aside, there is a ton of great research). There are some obvious and understandable reasons why the cartels are a long-term problem in Mexico.

The No. 1 reason that people turn to crime is lack of economic opportunity combined with a young population. It's not the preferred choice for most young people, but it's a choice they'll take if they don't have a lot of other options. Crime has fallen steadily in the United States over the last 50 years thanks to both steady economic opportunity and an aging population. Where do we see the least improvement? In areas with less economic opportunity (there is a bit of a chicken and egg issue here, but not as much as you might think). The biggest reason drug dealing and other illegal activity continues to thrive in Mexico is that there is a lack of other economic opportunity for a younger population.

Another major factor is the price for committing crime. In America, for example, almost all violent criminals (emphasis on violent) are eventually caught, prosecuted, and sent to jail, with the sentences increasing for repeat offenders and more serious violence. The Mexican criminal justice system is less effective and more corrupt than the American criminal justice system. You are less likely to get caught. If caught, you are often able to bribe your way out of prosecution. Even if prosecuted and sentenced, you are often able to buy your way out of prison. The price for being a criminal is simply lower. Also, the reason why cartels have private armies is, again, because Mexican law enforcement either is incapable of stopping them from doing so or chooses not to. The private armies then make the cartels even more immune from policing and the problem becomes a feedback loop.

Sure, there are ancillary factors (such as American demand for drugs and the fact that America's gun culture pours guns into Mexico), but lack of economic opportunity and a weak Mexican state are the real drivers here.

Sidenote: The discussion of Mexico and Mexican timeshares on this board has tracked a bad trend in American politics over the past 20 years. People tend to pick a side, see everything as black and white, fail to acknowledge that neither side is perfect, and personalize those on the other side as completely wrong and unreasonable. We'd do well to see more nuance in both arenas.