Card counting

[jehb2]

I'm not a gambler which explains why we've never stayed at our Flamingo TS in Vegas. But I'm in the middle of the movie 21 and I want to know how come Casinos can kick you out if they suspect you of card counting especially if it's not illegal?

 

[nicklinneh]

easy! it's a private place, so they can regulate who's there. and they want people to lose. watch "rainman" also. -ken

 

["Roger"]

In Nevada, the courts have treated this as no different than my kicking you out of my house or off my land. It is my (or the casinos) private property and they can welcome (or not welcome) whomever they want. In New Jersey, they cannot kick you out.

That does not mean that the casinos are helpless. For card counting to be successful, you have to memorize every card played. In addition, you only have a gambling edge toward the bottom part of the deck. Two defense mechanisms would be to start a new deck when about half the cards have been played. Then the card counter would never have an advantage.

Another would be to shuffle a bunch of decks together with the thought that no one could memorize as many cards as would be needed to keep track of every card played. (I only saw Rainman once, but I believe the movie depicts several decks shuffled together. The expectation would have been that a "normal" person could not have done the memorization required to successfully bet toward the bottom of multiple decks.)

Several years ago, there was a story about how a "team" of college students from either MIT or Harvard devised a system to beat the casino and succeeded. The articles I saw never explained what their system was beyond saying that the different students worked as a team in placing their bets.

My suspicion is that they were just doing card counting, but letting different students alternate who bet what during different portions of the deck. That would allow them to disguise the fact that they were card counting. (The table operators and security cameras are trained to look for people who increase the amount of their bets as a deck nears the bottom. But if one student bet high toward the bottom on one deck, then modestly high during the top of another, but let a second student bet even higher latter in the second deck, the fact that they were card counting might not be spotted. In that case, the casino might not resort to the defensive measures that they had available.)

 

[gmarine]

For card counting to be successfull you dont need to memorize every card played. In most systems each card is played is assigned a value of +1, -1 or 0. You arent trying to memorize each card, you are just keeping a total score. When the running total favors the player, for example having more face cards in the deck, the player would increase his bet. And do the opposite when the count favors the house.

When playing perfect basic strategy the house has an edge of about .5%. Good card counting using a plus/minus system gives the player an edge of about 1%.

Vegas casinos can basically ban you from the casino and do almost anything they want to deter card counting.

Atlantic city casinos are very different and cannot ban you but they can and will notify the other casinos who can and will do what they legally can to deter card counting. In Atlantic City a casino can refuse to let a player join a table in the middle of a shoe and can also can require a player to bet the same amount each hand during an entire shoe. Doing either/both of those effectively removes the advantage of card counting.

 

[pjrose]

Several years ago, there was a story about how a "team" of college students from either MIT or Harvard devised a system to beat the casino and succeeded. The articles I saw never explained what their system was beyond saying that the different students worked as a team in placing their bets.

If you haven't seen it yet, you might want to rent the movie "21" - it is about these students and their system.

 

[TUGBrian]

per my last visit...many casinos are switching to a new type of auto shuffler...where the dealer constantly re-feeds the cards back into the machine (already holding multiple decks)...this way there arent any cards for you to count obviously as they repeatedly go back into the machine to be put back in play.

there are still a few tables that offer single or double deck manual shuffle...but they reshuffle after only a few hands anyway.

casinos dont make a fortune for nothing!

 

[Liz Wolf-Spada]

I loved the book, "21".
Liz

 

[pjrose]

I loved the book, "21".
Liz

Whoops - I'm a big reader, so 50 lashes for me for recommending the movie without even thinking about the book!

1, 2, 3, 4, .......48, 49, 50!

 

[Icarus]

If you haven't seen it yet, you might want to rent the movie "21" - it is about these students and their system.

Did you read the first post in this thread?

-David

 

[pjrose]

Did you read the first post in this thread?

-David

Yes I did; mine (#5) was responding to and quoting Roger who described the students but didn't mention the movie.

 

[MULTIZ321]

Also see the book "Busting Vegas:The MIT Whiz Kid Who brought the Casinos to their Knees" by Ben Mezrich


Richard

 

[Pit]

Also see the book "Busting Vegas:The MIT Whiz Kid Who brought the Casinos to their Knees" by Ben Mezrich


Richard

Did they make that into a movie yet?

 

[caribbeansun]

Exactly and if you want to work that hard you have to avoid the shuffle-master machines and find casinos that deal with fewer decks in the shoe.

For card counting to be successfull you dont need to memorize every card played. In most systems each card is played is assigned a value of +1, -1 or 0. You arent trying to memorize each card, you are just keeping a total score. When the running total favors the player, for example having more face cards in the deck, the player would increase his bet. And do the opposite when the count favors the house.

When playing perfect basic strategy the house has an edge of about .5%. Good card counting using a plus/minus system gives the player an edge of about 1%.

 

[Passepartout]

It's not too difficult to find single-deck 21 in Nevada. There's a Nevada border-town 45 miles from here, though on weekends the single-deck tables go to $10 minimum wager and seats are hard to find. Big gamblers that we are, weeknight $3 mini and comp'ed buffet is about all the fun we need.

Jim Ricks

 

[jimbiggs]

The simple answer to your question is, any business has a right to refuse service to anyone.

I'm not a gambler which explains why we've never stayed at our Flamingo TS in Vegas. But I'm in the middle of the movie 21 and I want to know how come Casinos can kick you out if they suspect you of card counting especially if it's not illegal?

 

[mssuzan]

Ben Mezrich's book "Bringing Down the House" is the book behind 21, but does not have the hollywood ending - I liked the real ending better.

 

[MULTIZ321]

I haven't read "Bringing Down the House".

Ben Mezrich's web site http://www.benmezrich.com/books.html has both books listed"Busting Vegas: The MIT Whiz Kid who brought the Casinos to their Knees"and "Bringing Down the House".

I'm not sure which was published first but I think it was Busting Vegas which I also think tells the same story as "Bringing Down the House".

As Susan said, they're the books behind 21.


Richard

 

[fnewman]

It's not too difficult to find single-deck 21 in Nevada. There's a Nevada border-town 45 miles from here, though on weekends the single-deck tables go to $10 minimum wager and seats are hard to find. Big gamblers that we are, weeknight $3 mini and comp'ed buffet is about all the fun we need.

Jim Ricks

Yes, there are single deck tables in many casinos but all I have seen in recent years deal the cards face down to make card counting almost impossible.

Even in casinos that deal 6 decks from a shoe (face up), counting is pretty impractical because they will generally reshuffle when up to 1/4 of the shoe has not been dealt.

 

[MusicMan]

The simple answer to your question is, any business has a right to refuse service to anyone.

In this day and time, I'm not so sure that's true.

 

[Mosca]

What is most interesting, I think, is that the smallest house edge in the casino is on video poker and on the table games; specifically blackjack and craps, but in varying degrees on 3 Card, Caribbean, 4 Card, Spanish 21, etc; and the highest house edge is on the slots. However, in order for that house edge to be so low, the player has to play optimum strategy.

The house take on craps last year in Vegas was over 16%, compared to 7% for slots. In fact, slots pays back the highest percentage to the player out of all the games played. the reason for that is that no one plays the optimum strategy. At blackjack, for every card counter there are 5 guys splitting tens. At craps, for every roller betting 5x odds on the pass line, there are a dozen people playing hard ways or tossing $20 on the field. On the video poker, there will still be people who will throw the wrong cards. But on the slots, it is what it is; the odds are fixed, and no matter how stupid the player, all he or she has to do is feed the money and press the button.

It's true, you can look it up. The real odds aren't the same as the real take, because players are not smart.

 

[Patri]

This whole conversation is Greek to me so I'll stick to slots (if I ever actually gamble)