Canadian Tuggers / Healthcare in Canada

[dioxide45]

If you're suggesting that drugs are only developed profitably here in the US, you may want to reconsider. 3 of the 5 or 6 largest pharmaceutical companies in the world (Novartis of Switzerland, Bayer of Germany, and GSK of the UK) are non-US entities.

These are all three companies that have their roots that started long before many universal health programs around the world. Their primary profit center is still the US market and other countries without price controls on pharmaceuticals in place. Price controls help no one.

 

[Elan]

Their primary profit center is still the US market and other countries without price controls on pharmaceuticals in place.

If true, perhaps that's because unnecessary drugs and procedures are prescribed more often in a system that rewards such behavior?????

 

[calgarygary]

First, people on Medicare do buy insurance. It is called supplemental insurance. Second, in most countries with true universal healthcare(excluding Canada which prohibits private insurance as I understand it) people can and do buy insurance. Its just like a pollice department. It provides protection to all but people still hire private security and burglar alarms.

Second, isn't it more important to protect the health of our nation then the profits of insurance companies? It seems to me there is alot of moral outrage by people about a government option but NO moral outrage by the same people about people who can't get health care in this country, the rationing of health care by insurance companies, and the huge profits these companies make at the expense of others. Some people are very outraged that in some fantasy the congress and the president would get better healthcare then they get but could care less that right now they have health insurance and health care and others don't.

Unfortunately your information regarding health insurance in Canada is incorrect. There is a large for profit segment in our market selling secondary insurance. They are very similar to the various insurance providers in the U.S. but because they are not insuring hospital procedures, doctor visits, etc. their costs, and the overall costs in Canada are significantly lower than the U.S. For profit insurers still provide prescription plans, vision care, dental care, etc. in Canada.

 

[calgarygary]

These are all three companies that have their roots that started long before many universal health programs around the world. Their primary profit center is still the US market and other countries without price controls on pharmaceuticals in place. Price controls help no one.

Unfortunately, I don't believe the facts reported by these companies in their filings support your claim. Although the U.S. is an important profit center it is substantially smaller than Europe for Bayer and GSK but closer to Europe's profit for Novartis.

I state this not to be argumentative but to point out that these are large, global companies that have succeeded in regulated health care systems and achieved substantial profits even in those systems perceived as "socialized". They have managed to be world leaders and developers of pharmaceuticals even while achieving most of their profits from regulated systems.

 

[calgarygary]

This is a much contested number. People have no problem with people who need healthcare getting it. The 50MM number you provided consists of people who can get healthcare with their employer but choose not to, people who can afford healthcare but are young and healthy and choose not to pay for it, people transitioning from one job to another and some have suggested even illegal immigrants. The true number of uninsured that really need a government option is only about 20MM. Paying what the bill would cost over 10 years is far more than it should to only cover less than 10% of the US population.

As I have said before, statistics can be manipulated and I certainly believe that they might have been by the site that provided the 50million uninsured number as I also believe that they may have been by whichever site reported the 20 million number. I think that this highlights the fundamental difference between many Americans and most Canadians on this issue. Here in Canada, we find it completely unacceptable that any Canadian is without healthcare. To ask Canadians to accept that 2-5 million of our population would be without care, whether by choice or not, would be unthinkable.

 

[Liz Wolf-Spada]

Perhaps I don't understand the concept of single payer, but to me Medicare is essentially that. You can get Medicare part A with no additional cost, (single payer the government), you can add part B (still single payer the government, but you the user have a $100 co-pay, that I'm sure does not cover the cost) and it is in the supplemental insurance market, which is optional, that you see competition and private insurers. Maybe if the government could guarantee the big costs of hospitalization and catastrophic insurance, the insurance polices for doctors, lab, prescriptions etc. would cost less for the user.
Liz

 

[BevL]

As I have said before, statistics can be manipulated and I certainly believe that they might have been by the site that provided the 50million uninsured number as I also believe that they may have been by whichever site reported the 20 million number. I think that this highlights the fundamental difference between many Americans and most Canadians on this issue. Here in Canada, we find it completely unacceptable that any Canadian is without healthcare. To ask Canadians to accept that 2-5 million of our population would be without care, whether by choice or not, would be unthinkable.

That pretty much sums it up.

Again, an anecdotal situation - I posted at the beginning about our experiences with the healthcare system here.

My son was experiencing odd symptoms, some swelling of the glands in his throat, neck, headache. Went to the doctor Wednesday, a walk in clinic. Sent him for some blood tests. Maybe mumpss, maybe some sort of infection. No charge.

He goes back Thursday, not an infection, viral, probably mumps. No charge.

He phones this morning in a panic. He got up and his eye is swollen shut, along with most of the left side of his face, and shooting pain along the side of his head. I roar down to his place and trundle him into emergency. It took three hours, but he left with a diagnosis of shingles, some medication to "tide him over" and a prescription. No charge other than the for the medication at the pharmacy later.

He has to see an opthamologist first thing Monday morning to make sure his eye will not be affected. WOuld I have preferred today? Yep, but he's under strict orders that if certain symptoms start, get back into ER with the instructions that were written out and he'll be attended to immediately No charge for his appointment Monday.

A follow up appointment next Thursday to see how he's doing. No charge.

I realize there's a cost, so when I say no charge, I hope it's clear what my meaning is. It's not all coming out of my pocket directly.

My son is 24 years old. He works part time, goes to school part time. His jobs are such that he would not, I'm sure, have any sort of included medical if he lived in the States. He's a part-time student but doesn't have a large enough class load that he could be covered on our private insurance - I'm not sure what the rules would be in the States but I'm guessing similar. However, there was absolutely no hesitation this morning. No, "How are we going to pay for this? What if there's tests, maybe a hospital stay?"

The thought that everyone in Canada has that kind of coverage makes it worth the taxes we pay. It's not a perfect system, but when the chips are down, it does okay.

Again, I'm sorry for the long post but this subject hits close to home today.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

That pretty much sums it up.

The thought that everyone in Canada has that kind of coverage makes it worth the taxes we pay. It's not a perfect system, but when the chips are down, it does okay.

QUOTE]

Your sentiment is great and what is lacking by some in this country. I don't know what has happened in the U.S. We care about infidelity, sex scandals, etc. etc. but we don't care about our fellow citizens health. Some of us care about not paying taxes, being taken advantage of by poor people, various ideologies. Some of us have lost sight of simple compassion, empathy, and humanity. Some of us only see the moral responsibility of people to take care of themselves and don't see the moral responsibility of each one of us to help each other. In the end the failure of the U.S to provide health care for all its citizens is not about money. It is about a lack of desire and morality. Money and idealology is just an excuse. We find enough money .as a country for other things. Our local governments are more then happy to build sports arenas and stadiums for rich team owners. We subsidize agriculture and oil and banks and other industries and we don't call that socialism or some other name.

 

[itchyfeet]

That pretty much sums it up.

The thought that everyone in Canada has that kind of coverage makes it worth the taxes we pay. It's not a perfect system, but when the chips are down, it does okay.

QUOTE]

Your sentiment is great and what is lacking by some in this country. I don't know what has happened in the U.S. We care about infidelity, sex scandals, etc. etc. but we don't care about our fellow citizens health. Some of us care about not paying taxes, being taken advantage of by poor people, various ideologies. Some of us have lost sight of simple compassion, empathy, and humanity. Some of us only see the moral responsibility of people to take care of themselves and don't see the moral responsibility of each one of us to help each other. In the end the failure of the U.S to provide health care for all its citizens is not about money. It is about a lack of desire and morality. Money and idealology is just an excuse. We find enough money .as a country for other things. Our local governments are more then happy to build sports arenas and stadiums for rich team owners. We subsidize agriculture and oil and banks and other industries and we don't call that socialism or some other name.

 

[ricoba]

How have these last few posts not crossed the line of political statements?

 

[Carolinian]

There are currently publicly owned hospitals in the U.S. Have they killed privately owned hospitals? No. The Tennesse Valley Authority is a government run and owned utility that provided needed electrification for part of the nation. Did that kill privately owned utilities? No. Has the Post Office killed off Fed Ex or UPS? No. The National Pubic Broadcasting system is a government entity. Has that killed NBC, CBS, etc.? No. Medicare is a government run insurance program. Has that killed private health insurance? No. Has Social Security killed off the huge retirement investment industry.? No.

Who are the elites? Is the head of Blue Cross or Humana or Aetna and elite? Does making hundreds of millions of dollars in salaries and billions of dollars in profits make the insurance companies and their executives elites? Aren't they making that money by denying and RATIONING care?

Isn't the provision of medical care to our friends, families, and fellow countrymen a moral issue? Or is it ok to let the elite go to their expensive clubs, drive their expensive cars, live in their expensive mansions, send their children to expensive schools, while denying care to people whenever they find an excuse in their policy such as pre-exisiting condition, innacurate application for the insurance, failure to get a timely referral, exhaustion of benefits, experimental treatment, treatment not deemed necessary by the clerk at the insurance company? Is this all Okey Dokey?

''From those according to their ability; to those according to their need'' - Karl Marx

 

[Carolinian]

How have these last few posts not crossed the line of political statements?

This whole thread has been political from the ''get go''.

 

[Carolinian]

Oh and the lack of proper staffing by specialists, the lack of proper medevac, the lack of proper diagnostic machines is Natasha Richardson's fault? Aren't you trying to blame the victim?

And what about this case? www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=32851 Are you going to blame the victim in that one, too? Fortunately the victim lived in that case, but no thanks to Canadian medicine! If she had not come south of the border, she would have ended up like Richardson.

While I sit mostly on the fence on this issue. You are looking at a one off case. This is not indicative of all situations in Canada. Had she gone to the hospital as soon as the accident happened, should would have been fine. There was no problem with the first response time at all. Medical assistance was at the initial scene, but the injury wasn't taken seriously enough. Don't blame the system when the people involved made judgment calls of their own. We don't know what the first responders advice was.

I am not saying the system wasn't at fault, it may have been. However, the result may have been the same at a ski resort in the US.

 

[John Cummings]

Perhaps I don't understand the concept of single payer, but to me Medicare is essentially that. You can get Medicare part A with no additional cost, (single payer the government), you can add part B (still single payer the government, but you the user have a $100 co-pay, that I'm sure does not cover the cost) and it is in the supplemental insurance market, which is optional, that you see competition and private insurers. Maybe if the government could guarantee the big costs of hospitalization and catastrophic insurance, the insurance polices for doctors, lab, prescriptions etc. would cost less for the user.
Liz

Liz,

You are basically correct. Both traditional Medicare and Medicare Advantage Plans are financed by the Medicare tax on both employees and employers. Medicare Part A ( hospitalization, etc. ) is free to the subscriber and the optional Medicare Part B ( doctor visits, etc. ) costs $96 /month. Medicare Advantage Plans are run by private organizations and are funded by Medicare and some may charge a small additional monthly premium. I have a Medicare Advantage Plan from Health Net that is extremely good. I do not pay any premium to Health Net and ZERO co-pays for any doctor's visits, labs, etc, and I also get prescription drug coverage. It even pays for me to belong to a gym if I wish to. There is no need for any supplemental insurance if you have a Medicare Advantage Plan. Approximately 15 different companies offer Medicare Advantage Plans in my area with some being insurance companies and other non-profit organizations and all competing with each other. If you have the traditional Medicare then most people buy a private supplemental insurance that fills the gaps not covered and typically costs between $100-200 /month.

 

[Carolinian]

Medicare is a hybrid that is really not comparable to the Canadian or British system. The government-run system in the US that is most comparable to the Canadian or British system would be the VA, but even that is not the best comparision given the finite and known number of veterans. Ask a veteran about wait times and whether the care at the VA is as good as in the private system.

 

[Carolinian]

Prominent UK journalist describes government-run healthcare in UK

Britain's National Healthcare Looks Like Medieval Medicine
by James Delingpole

03/24/2009


Victims left for hours covered in blood, denied pain relief; elderly cancer patients lying in their own filth; dirty, chaotic wards akin to "war zones"; a shortage of basic equipment, including trolleys and thermometers; shouting nurses; ill-trained, badly supervised medics; disease outbreaks; starvation and dehydration; mounting piles of dead…

Scenes from a hospital in war torn Chechnya, perhaps? Mugabe's Zimbabwe? Romania in the days of Ceaucescu? The aftermath of Antietam? The Middle Ages?

Why, no. This was an English hospital the day before yesterday. And the day after tomorrow -- if President Obama gets his way -- it could well be an American hospital too.


All too often when I tell my U.S. friends just how dire the state of our nationalized health care system is in Britain, they assume I must be exaggerating for effect. "But we've English friends who tell us that it's the Envy of The World," some of them say (of which more later). "Come on, it can't be that bad. At least it's fair, and at least it's for free," say others.

Then consider, my friends, Exhibit A. The foul sub-third-world conditions I've just described came not from my overactive imagination but from a newly-published official report into the parlous state of affairs at two state-run hospitals in the central English district of Mid Staffordshire.

According to the report by the Healthcare Commission, standards of care were so "appalling" that between 2005 and 2008 as many as 1,200 patients may have died unnecessarily.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

Britain's National Healthcare Looks Like Medieval Medicine
by James Delingpole

03/24/2009


Victims left for hours covered in blood, denied pain relief; elderly cancer patients lying in their own filth; dirty, chaotic wards akin to "war zones"; a shortage of basic equipment, including trolleys and thermometers; shouting nurses; ill-trained, badly supervised medics; disease outbreaks; starvation and dehydration; mounting piles of dead…

Scenes from a hospital in war torn Chechnya, perhaps? Mugabe's Zimbabwe? Romania in the days of Ceaucescu? The aftermath of Antietam? The Middle Ages?

Why, no. This was an English hospital the day before yesterday. And the day after tomorrow -- if President Obama gets his way -- it could well be an American hospital too.


All too often when I tell my U.S. friends just how dire the state of our nationalized health care system is in Britain, they assume I must be exaggerating for effect. "But we've English friends who tell us that it's the Envy of The World," some of them say (of which more later). "Come on, it can't be that bad. At least it's fair, and at least it's for free," say others.

Then consider, my friends, Exhibit A. The foul sub-third-world conditions I've just described came not from my overactive imagination but from a newly-published official report into the parlous state of affairs at two state-run hospitals in the central English district of Mid Staffordshire.

According to the report by the Healthcare Commission, standards of care were so "appalling" that between 2005 and 2008 as many as 1,200 patients may have died unnecessarily.

You are not scaring anybody here with this rubbish and your Karl Marx quotes! We have been having an intelligent factual discussion.

 

[Carolinian]

You are not scaring anybody here with this rubbish and your Karl Marx quotes! We have been having an intelligent factual discussion.

While I would agree that the government-run health care systems of Canada and the UK are rubbish, maybe you ought to look at the facts of what happened to Shona Holmes in Canada's system:


Shona's Health Care Nightmare
by Connie Hair

07/25/2009


Shona Holmes is a Canadian citizen. She came to the United States to warn lawmakers at the Republican Health Care Solutions Group hearing last Thursday about the dangers of government-run healthcare. Shona survived a brain tumor, having surgery performed at the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Ariz. The subject of a national ad campaign for Patients United Now, she is also warning the American people.

Shona sat down with HUMAN EVENTS this week for an interview.

After seeing her primary care physician in Canada, Shona was given a wait time of four to six months to see a specialist. She was experiencing serious problems with her vision; she rapidly gained weight and began exhibiting other strong indications of an aggressive brain tumor.


“The most worrisome problem to me was my vision,” Shona said. “There were a lot of physical changes but my vision started to go. So my family doctor set up an appointment with a neurologist and an endocrinologist and, from the onset of my symptoms, it was four to six months to see a specialist. They were in two different hospitals in two different cities.”

After talking with friends in the United States, they urged her to see a specialist here. After making calls to try to get a specialist in Canada to at least give her a diagnosis, she began calling America.

“I have a lot of American friends and they were ranting and raving at me saying don’t be crazy, go see another doctor,” Shona said. “And I said it just doesn’t work like that in Canada. I can’t. So I tried to move those appointments up. You can’t. They don’t even have wait lists. They don’t even take your name. They don’t even ask what’s wrong.”

“So I called a couple of hospitals in the U.S. and was told to go immediately to the Mayo Clinic in Arizona,” Shona continued. “I spent a week there and got a full diagnosis.”

The doctors she happened to see at Mayo were Canadian. Shona said that made her feel more comfortable. Everyone in Canada had told her that American doctors were only after money. The doctors told her to go home and get the surgery she required since she had coverage there. They said they would make some calls and inform the doctors in Canada of the urgency. The tumor was pressing on her optic nerve. She was three to four weeks from permanently losing her eyesight, at best. The outlook was grim.

Diagnosis in hand, she still could not get in to see the specialists. And to make matters worse, once back in Canada, she and her husband got a call from doctors at the Mayo clinic informing them further tests showed she had another tumor. Even with that information, Canadian doctors refused to take her out of the scheduled order, the first of her two appointments at this point still being over a month away, the second over two months away.

Shona and her husband made the decision, borrowed money from every friend and family member, took a second mortgage on their house and paid for the surgery in Arizona. She was sure she could get reimbursed by the Canadian government, as she found out they had already sent 36 patients that month to America for brain surgery.

“They admitted there’s a shortage of neurosurgeons, they’ve admitted that the wait times are too dangerous but because I went without that pre-approval, they wouldn’t pay for it,” Shona said.

She said she’s still had issues with the health care system at home. Getting a diagnosis on adrenal issues from two more tumors was a struggle.

“There was one test that could diagnose my problems,” Shona said. “It’s an 8 a.m. blood draw and an 11 p.m. blood draw. Our labs are only open 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. on a normal day, sometimes 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. I’m not allowed to go into a hospital and have a blood draw done at 11 o’clock at night. It’s illegal. So I couldn’t get that test.”

“I’ve actually had to fly to Los Angeles,” Shona continued. “Had my blood done in the morning in Canada and flew to Los Angeles, had a blood test done and they diagnosed me [snapping fingers] like that.”

Shona said it took three years in the Canadian health care system before she finally had surgery to remove the adrenal tumors. But she says her life and her eyesight were saved thanks to the American health care system.

[sentence deleted - political] She’s even been the brunt of harsh attacks by her own hometown newspaper for daring to speak out about the perils of government-run health care.

“The people who are supposed to care about sick people, the backlash I’ve experienced since I’ve spoken out, I’m shocked,” Shona said. “I’m really shocked.”

[sentence deleted - political] What is becoming abundantly clear here these days is if America surrenders to government-run health care, it’s going to kill a lot of Canadians, too.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

Medicare is a hybrid that is really not comparable to the Canadian or British system. The government-run system in the US that is most comparable to the Canadian or British system would be the VA, but even that is not the best comparision given the finite and known number of veterans. Ask a veteran about wait times and whether the care at the VA is as good as in the private system.

I know alot more about the VA then the average person. Care at the VA has been rated excellent and better then many private hospitals by independent studies. I know many veterans who have received great medical care at VA hospitals and would only go to a VA hospital although they have other choices. Yes, veterans have other choices besides the VA and the VA is still the choice of many. Mistakes at the VA are highly publicized because of their public nature and because of the fact that the VA is constantly monitored internally and externally. The mistakes at private hospitals are generally buried with their patients. Unlike the private sector, care is not rationed at the VA. A veteran gets all the tests and treatment that the doctors think are necessary without filling out one piece of paper work. The VA medical system is a key part of spectacular medical research and breakthroughs. In fact, it is part of the VA mission. Many of the doctors in the U.S. received their residency training at the VA. VA has lead the way in computerized medical records and the efficient delivery of pharmaceuticals through their computerized mail out system. Veterans Groups throughout the nation recognize the great care that Veterans receive at VA hospitals and become outraged at proposals that are sometimes floated to throw the veterans into the private health care system by giving them health care vouchers.

Fear tactics, distortions, and misrepresenations will not fly here!

 

[pgnewarkboy]

While I would agree that the government-run health care systems of Canada and the UK are rubbish, maybe you ought to look at the facts of what happened to Shona Holmes in Canada's system:


.

Don't misquote me. BTW we have actual canadians posting about health care in Canada. You can read their posts to learn about the quality of care and ask them about it. It is first person information as to opposed to so called " real stories" you are posting.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

Shona has suffered vicious attacks at the hands of the Obama-bot bloggers who hate anyone who doesn’t worship at the Big O. She’s even been the brunt of harsh attacks by her own hometown newspaper for daring to speak out about the perils of government-run health care.



Welcome to the Obamination. What is becoming abundantly clear here these days is if America surrenders to government-run health care, it’s going to kill a lot of Canadians, too.

Carolinian is the only one to make blatant political attacks. It is being done with the full knowledge that it will eventually shut down this otherwise intelligent and important discussion that has been ongoing. It seems clear to me that is the ultimate goal of Carolinian.

 

[Carolinian]

Carolinian is the only one to make blatant political attacks. It is being done with the full knowledge that it will eventually shut down this otherwise intelligent and important discussion that has been ongoing. It seems clear to me that is the ultimate goal of Carolinian.

Those are not my words. They are quoted from the article. It it offends you, I will edit Connie Hair's words. Her comment is not what is important in the article. What is important is what happened to that real Canadian Shona Holmes.

OK, I have gone back and deleted the two sentences that make references to Obama, and noted their deletion.

 

[Carolinian]

Don't misquote me. BTW we have actual canadians posting about health care in Canada. You can read their posts to learn about the quality of care and ask them about it. It is first person information as to opposed to so called " real stories" you are posting.

OK, so you were calling the report of the UK's Healthcare Commission, a government entity, ''rubbish'' simply because it does not track with your beliefs. Did you go to these two government-run hospitals in Mid-Staffordshre to be able to dispute the facts they found, or is yours just an armchair opinion? You say you want a factual discussion, but I do not see that you have possession of any facts to dispute those that the Commission found in their own investigation on the ground in Mid-Staffordshire.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

This whole thread has been political from the ''get go''.

A discussion of health care is not by its nature political. This thread has not been political from the "get go". You, Carolinian, have made it political and intentionally so.

Your irresponsible and intentionally inflammatory use of "Karl Marx" quotes when discussing the moral responsibility of humans to help each other says much about you and those who share your sad view of the world.

Your[deleted by BevL] and [deleted by Bev L] was designed to shut down this discussion because you didn't like all the really good information being discussed.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

OK, so you were calling the report of the UK's Healthcare Commission, a government entity, ''rubbish'' simply because it does not track with your beliefs. Did you go to these two government-run hospitals in Mid-Staffordshre to be able to dispute the facts they found, or is yours just an armchair opinion? You say you want a factual discussion, but I do not see that you have possession of any facts to dispute those that the Commission found in their own investigation on the ground in Mid-Staffordshire.

You quoted somebody named "Delingpole" which included a vicious political attack on Obama. I don't have a clue what some British Commission said or didn't say and I don't give any credence by a second hand report written by someone with an obvious political agenda. Once again there is NO committee releasing a bill that calls for true universal health care. So you have set up a bogey man solely for the purpose of obfuscating the real issues.

Even if this commission existed and Delingpole didn't misrepresent their finding how does it help the people in the U.S ? Maybe we could say that we will learn from the mistakes of the Brits and do it better. We surely need to provide health care in a better way then we are doing it now. In our "system" Infectious disease is a tremendous problem , people are dying waiting to be seen in emergency rooms, people are laying in their own feces and catheters are not being changed because of lack of nurses, people have the wrong organs removed, pharmaceutical errors are killing tens of thousands of patients, insurance companies are denying and rationing care, doctors are forced to see too many patients because the insurance pays too little, children are dying because they can't get cancer and other treatment, our infant death rates are the highest in the West. What is your answer for that? Its okay?