Canadian travel to the US or other countries C-19 What’s up?

[CanuckTravlr]

Not an isolated case and these are different times then normal. What benefit does Canada get from that agreement? What about Niagara Falls to Detroit through Canada as it could be faster.

Yes blame the people that allowed it as the people who are doing it cannot be trusted and that should have been anticipated.

I will continue to disagree with you, since it is an isolated incident and there is a process in place to catch violators, whether you want to believe it or not. Do you have any proof to the contrary?

Since you seem to feel very strongly about this "problem", how did your discussion with your MP go on this issue? If you really want change, that's where it has to start.

 

[AJCts411]

Not an isolated case and these are different times then normal. What benefit does Canada get from that agreement? What about Niagara Falls to Detroit through Canada as it could be faster.

Yes blame the people that allowed it as the people who are doing it cannot be trusted and that should have been anticipated.

Niagara Falls to Detroit...simple fact is there is an alternative land route.

Perhaps you should investigate how greatly Canada benefits from a trading relationship with the USA.

 

[am1]

Niagara Falls to Detroit...simple fact is there is an alternative land route.

Perhaps you should investigate how greatly Canada benefits from a trading relationship with the USA.

There is a land route but what if one is faster? Niagara Falls - Port Huron. That trade relationship goes both ways and those yahoos are putting it a risk with their actions.

 

[MULTIZ321]

Nearly 1,000 flights in Canada have carried COVID-positive passengers since February.

Nearly 1,000 flights in Canada have carried COVID-positive passengers since February

Nearly 1,000 flights in Canada have carried at least one COVID-positive passenger since February, according to figures CTV News obtained from the Public Health Agency of Canada.

www.ctvnews.ca

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Richard

 

[DannyTS]

Nearly 1,000 flights in Canada have carried COVID-positive passengers since February.

Nearly 1,000 flights in Canada have carried COVID-positive passengers since February

Nearly 1,000 flights in Canada have carried at least one COVID-positive passenger since February, according to figures CTV News obtained from the Public Health Agency of Canada.

www.ctvnews.ca

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Richard

Remember, studies show that tests are oversensitive, probably 90% of the positive results should be negative.

 

[Blues]

Remember, studies show that tests are oversensitive, probably 90% of the positive results should be negative.

Citation?

 

[CanuckTravlr]

An American family of four travelling from Alaska to Washington State violated the conditions of their transit through Canada. When they were overdue for their exit at the BC/Washington border, the police went looking for them. They were found in Vancouver and immediately escorted by the RCMP to the border. They also earned a $500 CAD fine for each of the four family members and likely a ban from re-entering Canada. So the new tracking system seems to be working for any Americans trying to pull the "Alaska loophole".

Vacationing American family escorted out of B.C. for exploiting 'Alaska loophole', police say

An American family has been escorted across the B.C. border into Washington state after being caught apparently exploiting the "Alaska loophole," according to BC RCMP.

bc.ctvnews.ca

 

[cman]

An American family of four travelling from Alaska to Washington State violated the conditions of their transit through Canada. When they were overdue for their exit at the BC/Washington border, the police went looking for them. They were found in Vancouver and immediately escorted by the RCMP to the border. They also earned a $500 CAD fine for each of the four family members and likely a ban from re-entering Canada. So the new tracking system seems to be working for any Americans trying to pull the "Alaska loophole".

Vacationing American family escorted out of B.C. for exploiting 'Alaska loophole', police say

An American family has been escorted across the B.C. border into Washington state after being caught apparently exploiting the "Alaska loophole," according to BC RCMP.

bc.ctvnews.ca

My fellow Americans leave me shaking my head. Good work on the part of the RCMP on tracking them down and giving them the boot. Good enforcement of your laws is probably your best option at this point. As things stand now, Canadians can fly to and transit through anywhere in the USA. The day after you close the "Alaska Loophole", you'll most likely lose that ability. Hopefully, cases like these are exceptions and not the norm. But at the end of the day, Canadians have to do what's safe for Canadians.

 

[CanuckTravlr]

My fellow Americans leave me shaking my head. Good work on the part of the RCMP on tracking them down and giving them the boot. Good enforcement of your laws is probably your best option at this point. As things stand now, Canadians can fly to and transit through anywhere in the USA. The day after you close the "Alaska Loophole", you'll most likely lose that ability. Hopefully, cases like these are exceptions and not the norm. But at the end of the day, Canadians have to do what's safe for Canadians.

Fortunately, most Americans doing a legal transit between Alaska and the contiguous States follow the rules and transit safely and legally. The example cited in the article is is one of the rare exceptions. Not quite sure I follow what you mean when you say that "the day after you close the "Alaska Loophole", you'll most likely lose that ability"?

The ability for Americans to transit by land between the contiguous States and Alaska, or vice versa, is governed under a long-standing legal agreement. Neither country has any interest in changing that. It's not a loophole, it's being good neighbours. The "Alaska Loophole" refers only to those few Americans choosing to lie and say that is what they are doing, when what they really intend to do is to enter Canada to vacation here. It is already closed.

And yes, while the land border crossings are closed in both directions for all non-essential travel, Canadians can fly to and transit through the USA. Americans, like other international travellers, can also transit through Canada on their way to and from other countries when flying, they just can't leave the secure air-side part of the airport. The real problem is they have no where to transit to, since most other countries do not currently allow Americans to fly there!

As to Canadians who choose to fly out of the country, whether to the USA or elsewhere, they are still subject to a full 14-day quarantine upon their return. That is no different than anyone else allowed to enter the country that does not have an exemption. Americans legitimately transiting to and from Alaska is one of those exemptions.

 

[am1]

$500 each does not even cover the cost of policing it. Maybe $5000 and you have my ear. Stick a gps on the car and file a route with immigration.

 

[jabberwocky]

My fellow Americans leave me shaking my head. Good work on the part of the RCMP on tracking them down and giving them the boot. Good enforcement of your laws is probably your best option at this point. As things stand now, Canadians can fly to and transit through anywhere in the USA. The day after you close the "Alaska Loophole", you'll most likely lose that ability. Hopefully, cases like these are exceptions and not the norm. But at the end of the day, Canadians have to do what's safe for Canadians.

I could definitely see this happening if transit to/from Alaska was banned. If Canada doesn't open up the border to US travelers generally in the near future we may see the US border being closed to Canadians after January next year.

 

[MommaBear]

Harvard indicates there is a 5% false positive rate. Cochrane Medical indicated false positive 2%

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/which-test-is-best-for-covid-19-2020081020734#:~:text=The%20reported%20rate%20of%20false,5%25%20or%20lower

.

What is the diagnostic accuracy of antibody tests for the detection of infection with the COVID-19 virus?

www.cochrane.org

 

[jabberwocky]

A trial is underway at Peason Airport to test arriving passengers. This will be interesting to see what length of quarantine (if any) is necessary. Hopefully they get positive results which can reduce or eliminate quarantine for travellers entering Canada.

Passengers arriving at Toronto’s Pearson airport can be tested for COVID-19 as part of voluntary study

The month-long project, run by McMaster HealthLabs, the Greater Toronto Airport Authority and Air Canada, aims to explore the effectiveness of quarantines

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[bizaro86]

A trial is underway at Peason Airport to test arriving passengers. This will be interesting to see what length of quarantine (if any) is necessary. Hopefully they get positive results which can reduce or eliminate quarantine for travellers entering Canada.

Passengers arriving at Toronto’s Pearson airport can be tested for COVID-19 as part of voluntary study

The month-long project, run by McMaster HealthLabs, the Greater Toronto Airport Authority and Air Canada, aims to explore the effectiveness of quarantines

www.theglobeandmail.com

I would be quite supportive of a test-on-arrival, with mandatory quarantine until a negative result is received.

 

[DannyTS]

Citation?

@MommaBear

"This number of amplification cycles needed to find the virus, called the cycle threshold, is never included in the results sent to doctors and coronavirus patients, although it could tell them how infectious the patients are.

In three sets of testing data that include cycle thresholds, compiled by officials in Massachusetts, New York and Nevada, up to 90 percent of people testing positive carried barely any virus, a review by The Times found.

On Thursday, the United States recorded 45,604 new coronavirus cases, according to a database maintained by The Times. If the rates of contagiousness in Massachusetts and New York were to apply nationwide, then perhaps only 4,500 of those people may actually need to isolate and submit to contact tracing."

Your Coronavirus Test Is Positive. Maybe It Shouldn’t Be. (Published 2020)

The usual diagnostic tests may simply be too sensitive and too slow to contain the spread of the virus.

www.nytimes.com

Up to 90% of those who tested 'positive' for COVID-19 wrongly diagnosed

The most widely used diagnostic test for COVID-19, called a PCR test, provides a simple yes-no answer to the question…

macdailynews.com

 

[CanuckTravlr]

$500 each does not even cover the cost of policing it. Maybe $5000 and you have my ear. Stick a gps on the car and file a route with immigration.

Actually, in this case it probably does. The policing costs are a fixed, sunk cost in any case, but let's do the math.

There were four fines, totalling $2,000. Let's assume they were visited by a senior constable and either a corporal or a sergeant. That $2,000 fine would cover about a half-week's pay, including benefits, for both of them! But policing costs are rarely a factor in deciding whether to pursue an offender or not.

The bigger issue for the American family will be getting back home. The car had Alaska plates and they are now in Washington State. It will be interesting to see what happens when they show up at the border to head back to Alaska, since they are now red-flagged on the system.

 

[am1]

Actually, in this case it probably does. The policing costs are a fixed, sunk cost in any case, but let's do the math.

There were four fines, totalling $2,000. Let's assume they were visited by a senior constable and either a corporal or a sergeant. That $2,000 fine would cover about a half-week's pay, including benefits, for both of them! But policing costs are rarely a factor in deciding whether to pursue an offender or not.

The bigger issue for the American family will be getting back home. The car had Alaska plates and they are now in Washington State. It will be interesting to see what happens when they show up at the border to head back to Alaska, since they are now red-flagged on the system.

Escorting back to the border as well. I get sunk costs and fines are not based on costs but that is taking person power way from other places.

Maybe the USA should sell Alaska or operate a ferry if people traveling there cannot do so in a responsible manner.

 

[CanuckTravlr]

Escorting back to the border as well. I get sunk costs and fines are not based on costs but that is taking person power way from other places.

Maybe the USA should sell Alaska or operate a ferry if people traveling there cannot do so in a responsible manner.

I wasn't the one linking fines to cost-recovery of police time. I was just responding to your statement. The fines are the equivalent of the cost of two RCMP officers for almost three days. It takes less than an hour to travel from downtown Vancouver to the US border in Washington State!

Your solution is for the USA to build a fleet of ferries, since we probably both agree that it's highly unlikely that the USA has any interest in selling Alaska. And to whom...us??? I don't think we have any appetite for that either, nor I suspect, do the citizens of Alaska!

Let's take your suggestion ad absurdum. So if we cut off the landline route agreement, which has been in place for almost 80 years, then what happens? Does the USA retaliate by cutting off the ability of anyone travelling to or from Canada and Mexico, or points further south? It could certainly be justified.

Our economy and health depends significantly upon that ability, especially when it comes to things like auto parts and fruits and vegetables in winter time. They are mostly transshipped through the USA. Or we could just build our own fleet of ferries!!!

You seem to be a bit preoccupied with this issue, since it's not the first time you've raised it. This is such a rare occurrence, it seems out of proportion to the threat raised, since it seems to be mostly under control. What about all those Americans that do it legally and responsibly? Punish them, too?

If you want to take on something that might have a real impact on the spreading of Covid-19 here, I have a better suggestion. Go after some of our own law-breakers that think it's OK to party or gather together in larger groups without masks and proper physical distancing.

 

[am1]

I added escorting back to the US as there is a cost for the police car as well. Regardless $500 a head if caught is a very small amount. Can Canadians travel to Mexico or further south by car at the moment? Or Mexicans wanting to return home in their personal car? All this is just at the moment when the border is suppose to be closed. Once that changes allow anyone who wants to drive to Alaska do it. Just no duty exemptions that are not available to Canadians entering Canada. If they want that have it shipped direct to Alaska (through Canada). Yes there are few cases of people getting caught but lets remember not everyone is getting caught that are breaking the rules.

Canada's own law breakers are not the measuring stick if something is okay or not but yes go full force on them as well.

 

[jabberwocky]

I thought this thread was about Canadian travel to the US, not US travellers transiting through Canada? We’ve wandered a bit off topic IMO.

 

[CanuckTravlr]

My costs included not just the time of the two police officers, but the cost of the vehicle and the cost of someone sitting at a desk determining where the family was. Still more than covered by the $2,000!

You say "not everyone is getting caught that are breaking the rules". And you know this how? Anyone crossing the border to transit between Alaska and the lower 48, or vice versa, is given a unique, numbered tag. That tag is added to the computerized visitor record and must be handed back in to CBSA before re-entering the USA. How do you think they knew to send the police to find them because they were overdue. The visitor record includes the vehicle's licence plate and the visitors' passport info.

And the $500 is just the start. They had Alaska plates on the car. They are now in Washington. How do you think they are going to get back to Alaska? There is a strong likelihood they now have a ban on being able to enter Canada on their visitor record. That could result in them having to fly home to Alaska and have their vehicle shipped, plus a possible permanent ban on ever re-entering Canada in future. Which sounds a lot like what you were asking for!

 

[CanuckTravlr]

I thought this thread was about Canadian travel to the US, not US travellers transiting through Canada? We’ve wandered a bit off topic IMO.

The title is actually "Canadian travel to the US or other countries C-19 What's up?"

You are presuming the "Canadian" refers to Canadian citizens or residents. You are welcome to your interpretation, but IMO, it could also include travel in Canada ("Canadian travel") by anyone to the US or other countries. This could include Canadian travel to the US from the US, which is a rather unique circumstance.

In fact, the original question posed by the OP (an American from Ohio) was with reference to "what's going on crossing the borders" (plural), which adds credence to my argument. That is what we are discussing, and in particular, one poster's ongoing, windmill-like campaign against any American's right to do so.

You can certainly ignore the posts that don't interest you if you prefer, but it does fit into the title and OP, IMO.

 

[jabberwocky]

Fair point, I’ve kept a watch on this one since the topic is of great interest to me. Lately it seems to be all about complaining about a small number of violations of the Alaska exception rather than where Canadians can travel to. Carry on...

 

[Tank]

Giving an inch some will take a mile.
This thread has been helpful.
Thanks for the input.
Dave

 

[Talent312]

"...p to 90 percent of people testing positive carried barely any virus, a review by The Times found."

That sounds to me like being "barely" pregnant.
... and yet, 189,215 in the U.S. (892,721 globally) have died from it ...
Source: Johns Hopkins
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