Buyer’s Remorse

[OldGuy]

Actually, I think the entry of the big brands like Marriott, HGVC, Westin, Wyndham, etc. has cleaned up many/most of the truly fraudulent practices by developers. They still spin, tell partial truths, and use emotion to push people to buy things they may not need, but the outright fraud is much less prevalent.

Where is that ROTFLMAO emoji?



It says all that needs to be said about the industry when you have to say they engage in unethical practices when you are saying they have cleaned up their act.

As has been pointed out many times here, the Corporate timeshares have dissatisfaction and significant default rates, too.

(MVC: S&P Global Ratings' Expected Domestic Gross Default Assumption: 8.0%)

What were we talking about?

Oh yeah . . . Buyers Remorse . . . a similar topic new people come here about virtually every day.

 

[JIMinNC]

Where is that ROTFLMAO emoji?



It says all that needs to be said about the industry when you have to say they engage in unethical practices when you are saying they have cleaned up their act.

As has been pointed out many times here, the Corporate timeshares have dissatisfaction and significant default rates, too.

(MVC: S&P Global Ratings' Expected Domestic Gross Default Assumption: 8.0%)

What were we talking about?

Oh yeah . . . Buyers Remorse . . . a similar topic new people come here about virtually every day.

My point was not to defend the specific sales practices of developers, but the key point was the part of my post that you did not quote - that in today's world, the truly worst actors have become the exit companies. Many of them are outright fraud.

And when we focus on the timeshare owners that are dissatisfied, we tend to ignore that the vast majority of owners in the major hotel-branded systems are very satisfied. I know Marriott has reported owner satisfaction scores in their quarterly earnings calls well above 90% and I think HGVC is in the same ballpark.

Also, I'm not sure where your default quote was from, but the real numbers are much less. These are from each company's 2018 Form 10-K which is filed with the SEC every year.

Hilton Grand Vacations 2018 default rate: 4.71%
Marriott Vacations Worldwide 2018 default rate: 3.80%

Any lender will have defaults, but I believe I recall from yesterday's HGV earnings conference call that I listened to online that these rates are comparable to or slightly better than the default rates for auto loans.

 

[OldGuy]

the truly worst actors have become the exit companies.

& why do exit companies exist?

S&P Global Ratings' Expected Domestic Gross Default Assumption: 8.0%

Page 11: https://www.spratings.com/documents/20184/769219/MVW+2018-1/07e0d601-48df-4247-af1d-dc3030b1146b

 

[brp]

& why do exit companies exist?

To make money at the expense of these poor unfortunates without actually doing anything for them except taking more of their money? That's the best I can figure on this.

Cheers.

 

[OldGuy]

Something that got lost in the nit-picking and source-shaming is that ARDA defeated a 24-Hour Cooling-Off Period in the AZ legislation.

So, what the heck is a 24-Hour Cooling Off Period?

Well, in real real estate, you don't get 24-pages of fine-print legalese put in front of you two hours after you say, "I'll take it."

Closing in real real estate normally occurs long after the contract is signed, and after a whole lot of consumer-protection-oriented stuff happens.

The AZ legislators felt that a lifetime commitment should not be made in the heat of the moment, when the consumer is worn down and rung out, turning a 3 or 4 hour pitch into a 5 or 6 hour ordeal. The legislators wanted "buyers" to close the next day . . . go back to their room at Motel 6 for the night, and see how they felt about it the next day.

That would have cost the industry millions of dollars, or saved consumers millions of dollars, and a lot of heartache, depending on where your heart is.

I was in direct sales for ten years, including in upper management, and I/we experimented with the 24-Hour close, so I know how important it is to nail the prospect when you have them. At the beginning of a presentation, it felt good to say, "If you brought your checkbook, you'll have to leave it in your pocket. Even if you absolutely love what you hear today, and have to have it, which you will, you can't. We won't let you."

But that's not how commission sales people earn a living. It's all about breaking you down and having you where they want you.

 

[OldGuy]

To make money at the expense of these poor unfortunates without actually doing anything for them except taking more of their money? That's the best I can figure on this.

Cheers.

Can't even possibly consider because the consumer couldn't find any other way?

(I'm willing to consider that most exit companies are scumbags, too, so I'm thinking you and I might have common ground somewhere in the middle. I'm always hopeful.)

 

[brp]

Can't even possibly consider because the consumer couldn't find any other way?

(I'm willing to consider that most exit companies are scumbags, too, so I'm thinking you and I might have common ground somewhere in the middle. I'm always hopeful.)

Oh we do, on both issues (timeshare and exit companies). We agree on both in principle and differ in perceived degree of problem. That part's not gonna change for either of us, and that;s cool.

Cheers.

 

[OldGuy]

Concerning the new Arizona legislation here's the first reporting on it, before it got stripped:

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2019/02/19/timeshare-bill-passes-out-of-house-committee/

 

[JIMinNC]

& why do exit companies exist?

I think brp and I are saying basically the same thing - we're not saying the timeshare companies are as pure as the driven snow. We're just saying the predatory exit companies are taking advantage of the situation and making it much worse.

& why do exit companies exist?
S&P Global Ratings' Expected Domestic Gross Default Assumption: 8.0%

Page 11: https://www.spratings.com/documents/20184/769219/MVW+2018-1/07e0d601-48df-4247-af1d-dc3030b1146b

The document you linked to was one of the many note securitization transactions that Marriott Vacations Worldwide does on a regular basis. They originate the timeshare loans, but then periodically pool them for sale to qualified institutional buyers as security. S&P rates each pool and uses their models to predict a theoretical default rate over the term of the notes. For this securitization they looked at default rates over a 15 year period from 2001 to 2016 and came up with a base case prediction of 8%. That is not actual performance, but the parameters under which the securitization is rated. If the pool performs worse than these parameters (default worse than 8%), then MVW has to make some adjustments with the security holders. Here is what their 2018 Form 10-K said about this particular securitization:

During the second quarter of 2018, we completed the securitization of a pool of $436 million of vacation ownership notes receivable. In connection with the securitization, investors purchased in a private placement $423 million in vacation ownership loan backed notes from the MVW Owner Trust 2018-1 (the “2018-1 Trust”)...

Each of the securitized vacation ownership notes receivable transactions contains various triggers relating to the performance of the underlying vacation ownership notes receivable. If a pool of securitized vacation ownership notes receivable fails to perform within the pool’s established parameters (default or delinquency thresholds vary by transaction), transaction provisions effectively redirect the monthly excess spread we would otherwise receive from that pool (attributable to the interests we retained) to accelerate the principal payments to investors (taking into account the subordination of the different tranches to the extent there are multiple tranches) until the performance trigger is cured. During 2018, and as of December 31, 2018, no securitized vacation ownership notes receivable pools were out of compliance with their respective established parameters. As of December 31, 2018, we had 11 securitized vacation ownership notes receivable pools outstanding.

So essentially the 8% represents the parameter model assumptions under which the investors bought the securitization, and under which MVW essentially guarantees the portfolio will perform. It is not actual results. They expect the pool to perform better than the rating, maybe significantly better.

 

[OldGuy]

Back to the OP, Buyer's Remorse.

As simple as it can be sadi:

People come to TUG every day, asking how to get out of a timeshare, either one they just purchased or one they've had awhile. That's what this thread is about.

ARDA's estimate is that 15% of timeshare owners are dissatisfied. That would be about 1.5 Million households. Other estimates are much higher.

Any simple google search will show what we all know, that a significant number of timeshare owners feel they are trapped. How To Get Rid of a Timeshare gets 1/2 million hits.

The State of Arizona tried to do something about it. Their Attorney General's Office is disappointed that they did not succeed.

I will try to watch the news and keep folks posted.

 

[Tamaradarann]

To make money at the expense of these poor unfortunates without actually doing anything for them except taking more of their money? That's the best I can figure on this.

Cheers.

These are thoughts about why Timeshare Exit Companies Exist From two different perspectives:

One, is because there is a desire or demand for people to exit the timeshare contract that they bought into, mostly because of the maintenance costs that they are NOT getting or NO LONGER getting the use out of that they expected when they bought.

Two, The Developer or HOA doesn't value the timeshare property like it was when initially marketed or rather doesn't value it at all after it is sold to someone. Therefore, they will not even take it back for $0.

That is one of the reasons that having a Developer with an active ROFR and a Homeowners Association that will take back the property is essential to keep the Timeshare Industry thriving. If the Homeowners Association will take back the property or if the Developer will buy the timeshare property if someone tries to sell it at a low price means that the property has some value, even if it is very little to no dollars.

 

[OldGuy]

These are thoughts about why Timeshare Exit Companies Exist From two different perspectives:

One, is because there is a desire or demand for people to exit the timeshare contract that they bought into, mostly because of the maintenance costs that they are NOT getting or NO LONGER getting the use out of that they expected when they bought.

Two, The Developer or HOA doesn't value the timeshare property like it was when initially marketed or rather doesn't value it at all after it is sold to someone. Therefore, they will not even take it back for $0.

That is one of the reasons that having a Developer with an active ROFR and a Homeowners Association that will take back the property is essential to keep the Timeshare Industry thriving. If the Homeowners Association will take back the property or if the Developer will buy the timeshare property if someone tries to sell it at a low price means that the property has some value, even if it is very little to no dollars.

 

[WaterMan]

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2019/02/19/timeshare-bill-passes-out-of-house-committee/
https://www.azcentral.com/story/mon...na-law-rights-cancel-heretohelpaz/1211444001/

If I am reading these correctly, the only thing the final bill does is increase the recission period to 10 days, which sounds reasonable and nothing extraordinary there. It also listed a bunch of requirements that should be in writing. Again, nothing spectacular there.

 

[OldGuy]

Here's an abbreviated version of AZ's new timeshare legislation, from a neutral news source:

“The Arizona House of Representatives unanimously passed a version of the timeshare bill with stronger protections for consumers, including a “cooling-off period” of one business day after the sales presentation and a requirement that the timeshare company provide specific estimates of the actual cost of the timeshare,” according to the Arizona Attorney General’s Office. “Unfortunately, these additional consumer protection requirements were stripped in the Senate and did not make it into the final legislation sent to the Governor.”

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2019/05/24/governor-signs-timeshare-reform-legislation/

Note that the AZ AG's office found it disappointing that the parts of the legislation that I previously listed were defeated by lobbyists.

It is not that I necessarily support those harsher items, and I mention them to show that it is not just the musing of an OldGuy, that . . . well, you can read what I said before.

Que sera, sera.

Of course ARDA/the industry is opposed to anything that would allow dissatisfied owners to escape.

They are afraid of what might happen, as are most who are opposed to exit programs, that only those who want/use/enjoy timeshares would be left.

 

[OldGuy]

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2019/02/19/timeshare-bill-passes-out-of-house-committee/
https://www.azcentral.com/story/mon...na-law-rights-cancel-heretohelpaz/1211444001/

If I am reading these correctly, the only thing the final bill does is increase the recission period to 10 days, which sounds reasonable and nothing extraordinary there. It also listed a bunch of requirements that should be in writing. Again, nothing spectacular there.

You are correct.

The eye-openers are the things that ARDA beat down. That they were even proposed, made it through committee and to the floor, says a lot about the seriousness of the situation.

It's like the legislators said to the industry, "This time we'll give you chance to take care of it, but we'll be watching."

 

[Sandy VDH]

No timeshare would ever be available via resale unless it was purchased from the developer in the first place. There is plenty of opportunity for buyers remorse.

Either believe you bought a lemon or make lemonade. Those are your only choices.

 

[OldGuy]

No timeshare would ever be available via resale unless it was purchased from the developer in the first place.

The first time I heard that logic I was a YoungGuy.



The first time we talked to our neighbor and his Sig Other about timeshares, that's pretty much what he said, because he had sold timeshare retail, among other important things he had done, and he had come from a far away important place, where everyone is superior to the local heathens here.

Of course, he was not as pleasant about it as everyone on TUG is.



That was the last time we talked about timeshares until he was terminally ill, and he asked me to get rid of his/theirs, so they would not be a burden on his SO, because he had no idea how to get rid of a timeshare, and I did that sort of stuff.

Let me go put a date to that, since we've been talking about when resales collapsed. . . . late 2006.

It would be a shame if it takes terminal illness to appreciate an OldGuy!

 

[chillin]

Just joined. Appears to be a great site. Wish I would’ve found this before I signed an initial contract with Wyndham. I would’ve been a much smarter consumer going in.
I am still within the rescission period.
initially started with a Wyndham discovery package. It didn’t start out perfect as we were under the initial impression that we had VIP access to all Wyndham properties with our 400,000 points. As it turns out, we weren’t able to go to some of the places we really wanted to go to as we were restricted to properties that had sales units. We were trying to hit international ski areas but as it turned out we ended up going to Oahu, Tahoe, Park City, and Steamboat.
not sure why, but I just purchased a club Windham access vacation plan. Total price $16,499, after a $3600 discovery package credit. 126,000 perpetual points with 176,000 bonus points good for two years. Also includes, I believe, a lifetime membership to RCI evidently worth over $2000 and a one year complementary perks by club Windham worth about $60.
and just a short time I’ve been trolling here I have seen a wide range of opinions on purchasing versus renting. The 13 month advance booking feature is nice. However, we are quite spontaneous and full disclosure we were in the airline industry so we can move quickly when necessary. I am 64 years old so looking at time value of money. Quite frankly, I ran the numbers for a 10-11 year consumer experience. Could be overly conservative but I’m just using historical numbers and it works out to be about $380 per night for a one bedroom one week experience. So, looking for different opinions while I’m still in a rescission period. We do not have children so at the end of fun and games it would just be turn back to club Windham as it appears these properties have little to no value at the end of the cycle.
Thanks in advance,

We owned a 2BR Gold with 5000 points in Orlando and today we upgraded to a 2BR Platinum with 7000 points. Total for the upgrade is $17 000. I just found this site and reading through I am wondering if we should not have bought new. I understand how someone who doesn’t own a TS can buy one after market for $1 a point but can an owner upgrade their points buying something after market without owning 2 TS? Also isn’t there a 48 hrs rule where you can rescind the transaction? I am wondering if we should do that. Any thoughts on all this? Thank you!

Back to the OP, Buyer's Remorse.

As simple as it can be sadi:

People come to TUG every day, asking how to get out of a timeshare, either one they just purchased or one they've had awhile. That's what this thread is about.

ARDA's estimate is that 15% of timeshare owners are dissatisfied. That would be about 1.5 Million households. Other estimates are much higher.

Any simple google search will show what we all know, that a significant number of timeshare owners feel they are trapped. How To Get Rid of a Timeshare gets 1/2 million hits.

The State of Arizona tried to do something about it. Their Attorney General's Office is disappointed that they did not succeed.

I will try to watch the news and keep folks posted.

 

[CPNY]

Just joined. Appears to be a great site. Wish I would’ve found this before I signed an initial contract with Wyndham. I would’ve been a much smarter consumer going in.
I am still within the rescission period.
initially started with a Wyndham discovery package. It didn’t start out perfect as we were under the initial impression that we had VIP access to all Wyndham properties with our 400,000 points. As it turns out, we weren’t able to go to some of the places we really wanted to go to as we were restricted to properties that had sales units. We were trying to hit international ski areas but as it turned out we ended up going to Oahu, Tahoe, Park City, and Steamboat.
not sure why, but I just purchased a club Windham access vacation plan. Total price $16,499, after a $3600 discovery package credit. 126,000 perpetual points with 176,000 bonus points good for two years. Also includes, I believe, a lifetime membership to RCI evidently worth over $2000 and a one year complementary perks by club Windham worth about $60.
and just a short time I’ve been trolling here I have seen a wide ranof opinions on purchasing versus renting. The 13 month advance booking feature is nice. However, we are quite spontaneous and full disclosure we were in the airline industry so we can move quickly when necessary. I am 64 years old so looking at time value of money. Quite frankly, I ran the numbers for a 10-11 year consumer experience. Could be overly conservative but I’m just using historical numbers and it works out to be about $380 per night for a one bedroom one week experience. So, looking for different opinions while I’m still in a rescission period. We do not have children so at the end of fun and games it would just be turn back to club Windham as it appears these properties have little to no value at the end of the cycle.
Thanks in advance,

So glad you found TUG I WISH I HAD when i bought my first developer unit. Rescind and rescind now. So many better options resale and that’s if that if you really want Wyndham! Make sure everyone who’s name is on the contract signs the rescission letter, don’t call sales, follow the instructions on the contract you signed. It may even just say, to make changes to your account write to..... rescinding is making a change to the account. For the love of god save the money. Buy resale. Research other systems as well. You may like the Marriott vibe, or vistana or HGVC. All of which you can get Better price on resale. Rescind now and research and buy later for the love of god.
@Grammarhero

 

[Grammarhero]

Just joined. Appears to be a great site. Wish I would’ve found this before I signed an initial contract with Wyndham. I would’ve been a much smarter consumer going in.
I am still within the rescission period.
initially started with a Wyndham discovery package. It didn’t start out perfect as we were under the initial impression that we had VIP access to all Wyndham properties with our 400,000 points. As it turns out, we weren’t able to go to some of the places we really wanted to go to as we were restricted to properties that had sales units. We were trying to hit international ski areas but as it turned out we ended up going to Oahu, Tahoe, Park City, and Steamboat.
not sure why, but I just purchased a club Windham access vacation plan. Total price $16,499, after a $3600 discovery package credit. 126,000 perpetual points with 176,000 bonus points good for two years. Also includes, I believe, a lifetime membership to RCI evidently worth over $2000 and a one year complementary perks by club Windham worth about $60.
and just a short time I’ve been trolling here I have seen a wide range of opinions on purchasing versus renting. The 13 month advance booking feature is nice. However, we are quite spontaneous and full disclosure we were in the airline industry so we can move quickly when necessary. I am 64 years old so looking at time value of money. Quite frankly, I ran the numbers for a 10-11 year consumer experience. Could be overly conservative but I’m just using historical numbers and it works out to be about $380 per night for a one bedroom one week experience. So, looking for different opinions while I’m still in a rescission period. We do not have children so at the end of fun and games it would just be turn back to club Windham as it appears these properties have little to no value at the end of the cycle.
Thanks in advance,

Rescind. You can buy this for $1. My go-to source is TSN. I bought 353k pts for $4. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Drg71NVXGz8jKbq8h9TAwLw1CxRCdLAZ1j8upwjTXic/htmlview
They current have 105k pts for free.

Study TS for two months before buying. TS best for detailed planners. If Wyndham for you, then buy from TSN.

Check your rescission paperwork. It should looks similar to then attached. Don’t rely on the attached. All rescissions are different.

Lifetime RCi fees waived is misleading. Everyone pays the $160/180 program fees which comes with RCI. RCI lots of two star units so not sure if you’d like.

 

[CPNY]

Rescind. You can buy this for $1. My go-to source is TSN. I bought 353k pts for $4. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Drg71NVXGz8jKbq8h9TAwLw1CxRCdLAZ1j8upwjTXic/htmlview
They current have 105k pts for free.

Study TS for two months before buying. TS best for detailed planners. If Wyndham for you, then buy from TSN.

Check your rescission paperwork. It should looks similar to then attached. Don’t rely on the attached. All rescissions are different.

Lifetime RCi fees waived is misleading. Everyone pays the $160/180 program fees which comes with RCI. RCI lots of two star units so not sure if you’d like.

Oh nice they let them email as well? I’d fax, send certified letter, rrr, and email. I may even book a flight and hand deliver as well lol

 

[Grammarhero]

Oh nice they let them email as well? I’d fax, send certified letter, rrr, and email. I may even book a flight and hand deliver as well lol

Only in California. It’s not valid anywhere else though the fax is fine in some states. That’s why I told OP to check his rescission paperwork.

 

[chillin]

Rescind. You can buy this for $1. My go-to source is TSN. I bought 353k pts for $4. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Drg71NVXGz8jKbq8h9TAwLw1CxRCdLAZ1j8upwjTXic/htmlview
They current have 105k pts for free.

Study TS for two months before buying. TS best for detailed planners. If Wyndham for you, then buy from TSN.

Check your rescission paperwork. It should looks similar to then attached. Don’t rely on the attached. All rescissions are different.

Lifetime RCi fees waived is misleading. Everyone pays the $160/180 program fees which comes with RCI. RCI lots of two star units so not sure if you’d like.

Must appreciated. Glad I found tug. As it turns out, we still do a lot of adventure vacations while we’re still vertical (Macu Pichu, dive live aboard, etc.). Didn’t like a perfect fit, but liked the ski lodging potential. Seems like I may be able to have my cake and eat it too utilizing all the experience here at TUG. Cheers!

 

[CPNY]

Must appreciated. Glad I found tug. As it turns out, we still do a lot of adventure vacations while we’re still vertical (Macu Pichu, dive live aboard, etc.). Didn’t like a perfect fit, but liked the ski lodging potential. Seems like I may be able to have my cake and eat it too utilizing all the experience here at TUG. Cheers!

Yeah rescind and you’ll be fine. Check out other systems before jumping into one. You may like other choices out there.

 

[JIMinNC]

Just joined. Appears to be a great site. Wish I would’ve found this before I signed an initial contract with Wyndham. I would’ve been a much smarter consumer going in.
I am still within the rescission period.
initially started with a Wyndham discovery package. It didn’t start out perfect as we were under the initial impression that we had VIP access to all Wyndham properties with our 400,000 points. As it turns out, we weren’t able to go to some of the places we really wanted to go to as we were restricted to properties that had sales units. We were trying to hit international ski areas but as it turned out we ended up going to Oahu, Tahoe, Park City, and Steamboat.
not sure why, but I just purchased a club Windham access vacation plan. Total price $16,499, after a $3600 discovery package credit. 126,000 perpetual points with 176,000 bonus points good for two years. Also includes, I believe, a lifetime membership to RCI evidently worth over $2000 and a one year complementary perks by club Windham worth about $60.
and just a short time I’ve been trolling here I have seen a wide range of opinions on purchasing versus renting. The 13 month advance booking feature is nice. However, we are quite spontaneous and full disclosure we were in the airline industry so we can move quickly when necessary. I am 64 years old so looking at time value of money. Quite frankly, I ran the numbers for a 10-11 year consumer experience. Could be overly conservative but I’m just using historical numbers and it works out to be about $380 per night for a one bedroom one week experience. So, looking for different opinions while I’m still in a rescission period. We do not have children so at the end of fun and games it would just be turn back to club Windham as it appears these properties have little to no value at the end of the cycle.
Thanks in advance,

Wouldn't it be better to post this on the Wyndham board? This board is for HGVC.