Body scanners and full body pat-downs

[Aussiedog]

This is not the body pat of old

My sister, attractive, 56, has a lot of metal in her back and hip and is used to pat downs.

But the one she received last week AFTER the total body scan was obscene. Honestly, no one touches her genitals like that except her husband and her gynecologist, and her breasts were "pressed" (their word) until they felt "resistance" (their word). All done in public.

She was assured by TSA that this is the new normal so get over it.

I suggest that you get names and badge numbers prior to letting any of them touch you.

Ann

 

[Phill12]

When I got to the head of the line, I whipped out the little card the doctor gave me to show to the airport security people when my high-tech knee implant sets off their metal detectors.

The little card is not a free pass, but at least it shows that there might be a harmless reason for the buzzer to go off. That way, instead of wrestling me to the ground they take me over to a little booth for closer inspection via electronic wand & pat-down & belt-removal, etc. (while I'm already standing there shoeless in sock feet).

I think airline passengers willingly tolerate some delays & some inconveniences & even some semi-embarrassing invasions of privacy when they feel that doing so adds to the safety & security of airline travel.

I also have the card and showed it so no problems when I set it off because they already expected it. They walked me over to the side and scan my knee and that was it in Sacramento on Oct 22.
When returning from Dallas on Oct 30 the security was tighter and the knee check was the same but they did complete pat down and opened the front of my pants and looked.
My wife told them there was nothing down there because she has looked for years!

PHILL12

 

[Aussiedog]

Same Airport

My sister's extreme pat down was also in Sacramento earlier in November.

Ann

 

[jl2010]

My sister, attractive, 56, has a lot of metal in her back and hip and is used to pat downs.

But the one she received last week AFTER the total body scan was obscene. Honestly, no one touches her genitals like that except her husband and her gynecologist, and her breasts were "pressed" (their word) until they felt "resistance" (their word). All done in public.

She was assured by TSA that this is the new normal so get over it.

I suggest that you get names and badge numbers prior to letting any of them touch you.

Ann

Has anyone heard what very recent threats have caused this extreme patdown change? I know there is alot the gov doesn't tell the public and I am sure they just aren't doing it to get their jollies..lol. Honestly, I could use a little excitement..haha.

Secondly, if they just used the most efficient method of discernment developed by FBI many years ago, scanning and patdowns probably wouldn't be neccessary except in extreme situations. Unfortunately profiling is far to efficient to the point where it raises flags. Perhaps they should call it something else.

 

[dougp26364]

My sister, attractive, 56, has a lot of metal in her back and hip and is used to pat downs.

But the one she received last week AFTER the total body scan was obscene. Honestly, no one touches her genitals like that except her husband and her gynecologist, and her breasts were "pressed" (their word) until they felt "resistance" (their word). All done in public.

She was assured by TSA that this is the new normal so get over it.

I suggest that you get names and badge numbers prior to letting any of them touch you.

Ann

While I really don't have a problem with the scanners, I do have a problem with the flipant attitude of the TSA agents and, the fact they don't appear to know what they're doing.

I asked the TSA agent at PBI how much radiation I was being exposed to and was told there was NO radiation (WRONG). Her method of assurance to me was she stood by the machine all day and she wasn't scared. Big deal. There's a difference between being stupid and not being scared.

It is a minimal amount of radiation so long as the tech running the machine knows what they're doing. IMHO, there in lies the rub. I don't believe the TSA has a clue what they're doing with these machines. I think they press a button and whatever happens, happens. If there's something wrong with the machine or, if the machine isn't working properly, I don't trust them to A). tell me and/or B). shut it down to get it fixed because it will inconvenience them.

George Carlin said it best as far as I'm concerned. "I'm tired of people with a triple digit income and a double digit IQ rooting around in my luggage looking for bombs."

 

[Aussiedog]

Check out CBS evening news

Excellent piece on the new pat-down process. A guy filmed the process in San Diego including the TSA agent defending the touching of the genitals as NOT a sexual assault.

Going way too far.

Ann

 

[mrsstats]

Do woman agents do woman passengers or do men also do woman?

 

[linsj]

Do woman agents do woman passengers or do men also do woman?

Theoretically, you're supposed to be patted down by the same gender TSO. But I've read several reports of women being patted down by men due to a lack of female TSOs at an airport.

 

[dioxide45]

Check out this article "Image of Genitalia on Full Body Scanner leads to assault", these were airport employees viewing each other and happened to mock the wrong employee.

That's sexual harassment in the workplace and should have been reported. The offenders should have been disciplined.

I agree, the offending employees should have not only been dealt with, they should have been fired. The employee now charged with assault will end up suing the TSA and in the end it will cost us all more.

The amount of radiation in the body scanner is equivalent to the exposure you get in 15 minutes of suntanning or 2 minutes flying at altitude. Frankly I am much more at risk on my way to Hawaii or being in Hawaii! I am still going.

Here is the source:

http://casesblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-is-radiation-exposure-from-full.html

Sure this is what they say now. But this is new technology with no long term studies. Twenty years from now they will be telling us that the radiation from these things is causing who knows what and it was all for nothing.

The only way these scanners should be used is if a computer scans the images and alerts agents to anomalies. Then you could just walk through the things as a computer rather than a person can do the scan in milliseconds.

I agree. Technology exists to identify typed and even written documents via OCR. Surely these things can be setup so a software program can review the images and kick out ones that are anomalies and perhaps another small percentage to make sure everything is in working order.

Has anyone heard what very recent threats have caused this extreme patdown change? I know there is alot the gov doesn't tell the public and I am sure they just aren't doing it to get their jollies..lol. Honestly, I could use a little excitement..haha.

The TSA is trying to say that these new machines are to protect us in the future and to be proactive. However this is all a result of the underwear bomber last year. So once again it is all reactive.

 

[jlwquilter]

This was asked earlier but no one responded.

Does anyone know, perhaps thru first hand observation recently at an airport, what it being done with children?

Not for nothing but I am not thrilled that my DDs first sexual contact might be with some stranger at the airport gropping her. The agent not getting a thrill is not the point. We teach our children to not let strangers touch their privates and now we say it's ok? The agents are not the exception - medical personnel with mom standing right there watching like a hawk is the exception.

Personally I think all this is crap. Profiling is needed, and screening should be done by people who know how to screen. Not Billy Bob, newly minted TSA "Agent".

My bad but I had no idea of this recent ramp up of security measures. DH flies out in a few days (business), first time simce this Nov. 1st date. I don't hink he's aware of this change either. It'll be interesting for sure to see what happens.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Airports Are Allowed To Opt Out Of TSA -- Can Switch To Their Own Screenings Instead.

According to recent internet news reports -- & seeing something on the internet doesn't make it true -- the law that established TSA also provides that after 2 years airports can decide to do their own security screenings instead of sticking with TSA.

It has been longer than 2 years now.

I can imagine that public dissatisfaction with the current screening rigmarole might well lead some airport authorities to tell TSA Thanks But No Thanks.

Wouldn't that be something ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Blues]

The amount of radiation in the body scanner is equivalent to the exposure you get in 15 minutes of suntanning or 2 minutes flying at altitude. Frankly I am much more at risk on my way to Hawaii or being in Hawaii! I am still going.

Here is the source:

http://casesblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-is-radiation-exposure-from-full.html

I had read the same thing. And I was completely in the camp of "the scanners are harmless, and what's the big deal on the pat-downs?". That is, until hearing reports like AussieDog's, and many similar ones on the internet. If TSA is taking the position that genital and breast touching is part of the process, then they've gone way too far.

And as far as the above quote, as I said, I was in that camp. But then I saw a reference to this, from a set of concerned scientists and physicians:

http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf

This now has me concerned. I don't think that the government really knows how innocuous or dangerous these scans are.

My thinking on this subject has turned around in the last 48 hours.

-Bob

 

[Beaglemom3]

Now, a lot has been said about this topic and it may vary from airport to airport, but until you've had the lived experience v. the imagined experience of a combined extensive-intrusive body pat-down and body scan, you cannot get the full effect.

This is not the once-over pat-down prior to November 1st, trust me.


This may send a confusing message to children about being touched when & by whom. Not sure and can only wonder about even one child getting the wrong message from this.

I did it willingly as I am/was trying to be a "good citizen" and we, in Boston, are very aware that two of the hijacked planes of 9/11 departed from Logan, so there is some painful history here.


Pulling no punches, let me be absolutely blunt here....In Boston, on November 1st, TSA "patted me down" as follows:

1. Ran the gloved palm sides of her hands on/alongside/under the breasts.

2. Ran the gloved palm sides of her hands up, alongside and into the groin and crotch areas.

3. Ran the gloved palm sides of her hands up & inside/outside the thighs.

4. Ran the gloved palm sides of her hands up & down the backside.

5. Other, less personal areas, too.

Edit: She seemed apologetic and uncomfortable, but not as nearly as I did.

Did not check under my armpits, but they were scanned as you have to assume the "diamond" position when scanned.



Perhaps TSA et al would be more effective in tightening up the "no fly" list for starters .
How they get actually boarded is beyond belief.

 

[Talent312]

I'm thinking of wearing a pair of short-shorts, volunteering for a pat-down,
and at certain moments, I'll say, "Yummy. Can you do that some more?"
... and wiggle my fanny.

 

[mav]

Now, a lot has been said about this topic and it may vary from airport to airport, but until you've had the lived experience v. the imagined experience of a combined extensive-intrusive body pat-down and body scan, you cannot get the full effect.

This is not the once-over pat-down prior to November 1st, trust me.


This may send a confusing message to children about being touched when & by whom. Not sure and can only wonder about even one child getting the wrong message from this.

I did it willingly as I am/was trying to be a "good citizen" and we, in Boston, are very aware that two of the hijacked planes of 9/11 departed from Logan, so there is some painful history here.


Pulling no punches, let me be absolutely blunt here....In Boston, on November 1st, TSA "patted me down" as follows:

1. Ran the gloved palm sides of her hands on/alongside/under the breasts.

2. Ran the gloved palm sides of her hands up, alongside and into the groin and crotch areas.

3. Ran the gloved palm sides of her hands up & inside/outside the thighs.

4. Ran the gloved palm sides of her hands up & down the backside.

5. Other, less personal areas, too.

Edit: She seemed apologetic and uncomfortable, but not as nearly as I did.

Did not check under my armpits, but they were scanned as you have to assume the "diamond" position when scanned.



Perhaps TSA et al would be more effective in tightening up the "no fly" list for starters .
How they get actually boarded is beyond belief.

If that is what the new pat down is I wonder if I can request a twenty something good looking guy to do it? As old as I am, I am sure he would make it quick. And I might get a thrill

 

[geekette]

No one is forcing us to fly. Drive a car and you have to have a driver's license. Travel out of the country and you need a passport. Fly and you have to go through a body scan. All these are ok with me.

George

exactly. it's like every other business - if you wish to use their product or service, they get to state the terms. Has nothing to do with "rights", it's "terms of service." Don't like it, don't fly.

I'll take the scan.

I think that with the quick viewing to see if there is any non-human thing there it's not really an opportunity for ogling. I like to think the people running the machines are professionals, just doing a job. It really doesn't bother me and I highly doubt that mine is the one view out of many thousands that day that they talk about over drinks post-shift. Really, it's just a body. It's mine, but still, just a body. They can look, but I'd prefer they not touch.

 

[geekette]

Technology exists to identify typed and even written documents via OCR. Surely these things can be setup so a software program can review the images and kick out ones that are anomalies and perhaps another small percentage to make sure everything is in working order.

OCR has been around for a long time, but it's just not the same thing to recognize a character out of a set of 26 possibilities (not counting punctuation cuz, I don't want to do the counting!) The human body varies greatly from person to person. I think the logic would have to be so fuzzy as to be useless.

But, I do hope someone is working on it as I agree - get em in, get em out, let an electronic brain do the work.

 

[california-bighorn]

This was asked earlier but no one responded.

Does anyone know, perhaps thru first hand observation recently at an airport, what it being done with children?

Not for nothing but I am not thrilled that my DDs first sexual contact might be with some stranger at the airport gropping her. The agent not getting a thrill is not the point. We teach our children to not let strangers touch their privates and now we say it's ok? The agents are not the exception - medical personnel with mom standing right there watching like a hawk is the exception.

Personally I think all this is crap. Profiling is needed, and screening should be done by people who know how to screen. Not Billy Bob, newly minted TSA "Agent".

The news today had a story about a 3 year old girl becoming very upset after what some observers decribed as "outright fondling" by a TSA agent. You are right on that profiling is only reasonable and the current policies are as you stated "crap".
I had a small incident when a TSA agent was running his hand down my pants to check behind the pants button. HE GOT MAD when I made a wise crack while he was performing his pat-down. The main problem with all this is that they still won't stop anyone determined to commit a terrorist act.
There was another story concerning the danger of the radiation. An expert stated the danger of anyone receiving dangerous levels of radiation are about the same as being killed in a terrorist attack. Pick your poison!!!

Edit: Just saw another story on FOX involving a 3 year old girl going thru airport security. Not sure if it was the same incident as reported earlier in the day. But just for correctness, my observation was the girl was screaming while the TSA Agent was grabbing the girl while trying to "control" the little girl to conduct a search. Either way not appropriate in my opinion.

 

[california-bighorn]

TSA vs Sky Marshalls

With this latest round of unpopular screening and scanning, I was wondering what the practical and economic results would be if we stopped all this screening and pat-downs and instead used the financial resourses to place a Sky Marshall on each and every plane. Think of the financial burdon of the small army of bumbling TSA Agents and screening equipment employeed for every flight verses the wages for a professionally trained Sky Marshall.
Then consider the time saved by being able to walk straight to the gate.
I know this won't happen. Once a federal agency is created it just doesn't go away. And on a lighter side, it would put too many federal workers out of work.
I'd take the Sky Marshall any day!!

 

[jl2010]

Theoretically, you're supposed to be patted down by the same gender TSO. But I've read several reports of women being patted down by men due to a lack of female TSOs at an airport.

Just wait until holiday season officially starts.

 

[geekette]

With this latest round of unpopular screening and scanning, I was wondering what the practical and economic results would be if we stopped all this screening and pat-downs and instead used the financial resourses to place a Sky Marshall on each and every plane. Think of the financial burdon of the small army of bumbling TSA Agents and screening equipment employeed for every flight verses the wages for a professionally trained Sky Marshall.
Then consider the time saved by being able to walk straight to the gate.
I know this won't happen. Once a federal agency is created it just doesn't go away. And on a lighter side, it would put too many federal workers out of work.
I'd take the Sky Marshall any day!!

but it then becomes a matter of knowing there is an air marshall and casing the gate to determine which passenger it is, disabling them first, then going about whatever.

I'm all for air marshals, but if everyone knows that every flight has one, it's not a deterent, it's a target. If only "the public's right to know" was squelched for some things ... damned media.

 

[dioxide45]

With this latest round of unpopular screening and scanning, I was wondering what the practical and economic results would be if we stopped all this screening and pat-downs and instead used the financial resourses to place a Sky Marshall on each and every plane. Think of the financial burdon of the small army of bumbling TSA Agents and screening equipment employeed for every flight verses the wages for a professionally trained Sky Marshall.
Then consider the time saved by being able to walk straight to the gate.
I know this won't happen. Once a federal agency is created it just doesn't go away. And on a lighter side, it would put too many federal workers out of work.
I'd take the Sky Marshall any day!!

Unfortunately a sky marshall can only protect against certain threats, like a hostage takeover. If someone can just walk to the gate with explosives in their carry on baggage unchecked, the sky marshall won't be able to do much to stop them once they are at 30,000 feet. One press of a button and it is all over. Sky marshall's are only one part of a bigger fix.

 

[Talent312]

I was wondering what the practical and economic results would be if we stopped all this screening and pat-downs and instead used the financial resourses to place a Sky Marshall on each and every plane.

Results probably not good, when the Sky Marshall gets blown up along with the plane
... becuz no one was checking for passengers with explosives in their underwear.

 

[california-bighorn]

Results probably not good, when the Sky Marshall gets blown up along with the plane
... becuz no one was checking for passengers with explosives in their underwear.

Good point and not to gross anyone out, but unless we go to body cavity searches the explosives will still be able to "walk onto the plane". I think this is the very reason for the implementation of scanning devices as they are able to detect more "hidden" objects. Ask anyone who works in law enforcement, especially in corrections, and they'll tell you some stories.
No easy answer, but the searches currently being conducted especially on kids and grandmothers seems like a waste of resources.

 

[jlwquilter]

Good point and not to gross anyone out, but unless we go to body cavity searches the explosives will still be able to "walk onto the plane". I think this is the very reason for the implementation of scanning devices as they are able to detect more "hidden" objects. Ask anyone who works in law enforcement, especially in corrections, and they'll tell you some stories.
No easy answer, but the searches currently being conducted especially on kids and grandmothers seems like a waste of resources.

I agree. The pat downs are useless for stopping anyone from doing anything. I am a middle aged, middle class woman and even I can think of a dozen ways to get around a pat down, even if they are squeezing my boobs and cramming a hand in my crotch. Come on, get serious or go home TSA. All you're really doing is wasting my time and money and ticking me off.

I think the x-ray machines at least have a chance at catching someone that has secreted something on or more importantly in their body. And I don't mean just cavities. Recent "surgeries" provide access to "cavaties" where things can be stored and accessed. And with chemicals and other items, access isn't even required. As already posted, anyone committed to this type of action is not worried about coming out of it alive themselves or a bit of pain for themselves along the way.

I just don't trust the machines are safe. The govenment and the manufacturer telling me they are means diddly to me. They lie all the time to make money, etc. My life/health means less than zero to them.

We have a few fly trips already well in progress - first in March (Mexico), last in June 2012 (Ireland/England), with Glacier and Banff in between. We need to seriously consider what we are going to do if this useless invasion of our bodies is to be the new norm.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin. I see this happening here. We are giving up essentials liberities that define us as Americans for not even a real bit of temporary security/safety. We are started on the slippery slope. What will be next demanded of us in order to ensure our safety?

I know I sound like a crazy but honestly this stuff scares me. And I don't mean the terrorist threat from abroad.

And as an aside, I am going to have a tough life ahead of me anyway after my DH is jailed for attacking a TS Agent that has been a little too eager in his pat down of our daughter. And I don't mean to impy that a pat down of a boy is any less tramatic for the child and his parents.