Beware using sniping software on eBay Auctions (Sumday)

[breezez]

For those of you who bid on eBay or use sniping software or a service, I seen a new one that I had never seen before. There was a Grandview 2BR LockOff 98K RCI Points contract posted on eBay. I put this in my watch list over a week ago, knowing it ended this weekend I just pulled it up. It now is for an entirely different resort in different area for a fixed week unit. Just look on the revision tab at beginning of listing and you can see, they changed every thing in the listing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FREE-USE-FI...867000?hash=item5b38512938:g:8foAAOSw-QBXPfW5

 

[uscav8r]

I've used Sumday before and they are one of the most ethical companies I've dealt with. It sounds to me like they corrected the listing; there were zero bids in any case. Not everything online has some nefarious motive.


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[uscav8r]

If you have questions or concerns, you should reach out to Jeff Brown, who goes by that exact handle here on TUG.


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[tschwa2]

Did it have any bids? If it did, those owners were probably contacted and their bids cancelled. I think they may have sold it on their site and then rather than pay for a new ad they just used the old shell and started a new auction for another product.

 

[bizaro86]

I found Sumday to always be very good to deal with, and have bought from them on eBay a couple of times with no issues. Probably a good idea to check your snipe bids all the time the day the auction ends just to be sure no new information has been added/changed that would affect it.

I could see a less ethical seller being difficult to deal with, and you would have less ground to stand on if you had bid after an auction detail had been changed.

 

[breezez]

They might be ethical to deal with and maybe I should have worded my title a little better, and Tugg doesn't allow you to change titles, but I messaged them in the eBay listing to verify what it was they clarified everything back in a response then 6 days later the item was completely changed to something else.

It would be like a listing for a 2013 Ford F-150 Truck, only 12,000 miles and all kinds of pics showing the truck. You email owner/broker to verify details on truck they confirm everything. You put in your watch list then 36 hours before it's over you pull it back up it's now a 1997 GEO tracker with 179,00 miles. If I would have just put this in an auto bid software and left it I would have been bidding on something I did not want.

My warning should be: "Be careful using auto bidding software, while I knew you could modify a listing I had know idea you could materially change 100% what the auction was for."

 

[vacationtime1]

OP's point is a good one; what happens if someone places a snipe bid, doesn't check to see whether the listing was changed, the auction item is changed, and the snipe bid wins? Based on his reputation, I suspect Sumday would cancel the winning bid. But less ethical sellers may not.

The good news is that real estate auctions on eBay are not binding and a changed description is a perfectly acceptable reason for the buyer to not honor the bid.

(and I suspect the reason any of this happened is that Sumday was trying to save a listing fee by re-using an ad)

 

[ssreward]

I had thought they were very good about pulling listings from their website once they went to eBay (I've looked there for both existing eBay listings & prior unsold listings from eBay but never found either on the website) but this makes me nervous - I agree it was most likely an attempt to save fees but it certainly doesn't inspire confidence, no matter the reason...

 

[theo]

OP's point is a good one; what happens if someone places a snipe bid, doesn't check to see whether the listing was changed, the auction item is changed, and the snipe bid wins? Based on his reputation here, I suspect Sumday would cancel the winning bid. But less ethical sellers may not.

The good news is that real estate auctions on eBay are not binding and a changed description is a perfectly acceptable reason for the buyer to not honor the bid.

(and I suspect the reason any of this happened is that Sumday was trying to save a listing fee by re-using an ad)

I agree with these observations; good points, all.

Consider however that any timeshare SumDay has listed on eBay may well also be offered elsewhere at the same time, including on SumDay's own site. Understandably, SumDay can (and will) "seal the deal" with the first sincere buyer to present with payment. Just as understandably, SumDay might not want the remaining time balance on a eBay listing (for which they've already paid) to just go to waste if the timeshare sells elsewhere before the eBay listing expiration.

In any event, Jeff Brown / SumDay has a well established track record of making things right when transaction problems arise, 'tho the "snipe" scenario above could have unintended consequences with a sketchy seller. But, as vacationtime1 has correctly noted, no real estate auction on eBay (including timeshares) is ever binding anyhow, so it certainly seems to me like a "no harm, no foul" situation which does not elicit or warrant any real "aggravation". YMMV.

 

[ssreward]

I'm not sure how many people actually realize a real estate auction (automotive, as well) is non-binding...yes it's buried deep in the auction terms but sellers most definitively do NOT go out of their way to publicize that information - even Sumday's listing for the auction states: NON-PAYMENT WILL RESULT IN ANY REMEDY DEEMED REASONABLE. WE MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO ENSURE THE ACCURACY OF OUR LISTINGS AND BY BIDDING YOU AGREE THAT YOU HAVE VERIFIED THE MATERIAL FACTS RELEVANT TO YOUR PURCHASE DECISION. THIS AUCTION IS BINDING UPON THE WINNING BIDDER. And:
~~YOUR BID IS AN INTENTION TO PURCHASE NOT A CONTRACT FOR DISCUSSION.~~


And the OP states they DID in fact verify the "material facts" on said auction but then it changed to an entirely different one. Luckily, this specific incident involves a well known (here at least) reputable seller but it's still a very worthy caution regardless!

 

[icydog]

I agree with these observations; good points, all.

OP might consider that any timeshare SumDay has listed on eBay may also be listed elsewhere at the same time, perhaps even on SumDay's own site. Understandably, SumDay will "seal the deal" with the first sincere and willing buyer to present themselves. Just as understandably, SumDay might not want the eBay listing (for which they've already paid) to go to waste if the timeshare sells elsewhere, before the eBay listing expiration.

In any event, SumDay has a well established track record of making things right when transaction problems arise, but the "snipe" scenario theorized above could have unintended consequences with a sketchy seller. But, as vacationtime1 has correctly noted, no real estate auction on eBay (including timeshares) is ever binding anyhow. Analogy to a non real estate listing situation may not appropriately apply.

I've done exactly the same thing but not on an auction. I had something up for rent on Redweek. I rented the week then reused the ad to list my 2018 week. I did It only to save the fees but it didn't work. The ad expired before I could find a new renter

As far as Sumday, I've gotten some very good deals from them, and I feel they are an ethical company.

 

[md8287]

I've done exactly the same thing but not on an auction. I had something up for rent on Redweek. I rented the week then reused the ad to list my 2018 week. I did It only to save the fees but it didn't work. The ad expired before I could find a new renter

As far as Sumday, I've gotten some very good deals from them, and I feel they are an ethical company.

Changing an ad on RedWeek pales in comparison to changing a material detail on eBay. And RedWeek does not allow you to change the resort as it appears was done by SumDay in this case.

To me this example, especially by a respected seller, is VERY IMPROPER.

I would like to see SumDay post that they will stop this practice and cancel that auction before I would bid on any auction they have.

 

[bendadin]

I've was going around with Jeff Brown about this property. I have purchased twice from them and it went very well.

They listed 3 Grandview properties on eBay and not on their site (when I was told that is ALWAYS goes on the site first.) They were having a 25% sale on their site. I was told that because of eBay rules, the auctions had to remain. So I had a snipe set up for that contract. Today is when I noticed that it had totally changed from Grandview to VV Weston.

I am aggravated. Not only did I have to wait 9 days, (these are time sensitive auctions since the Grandview UY is August 1,) but had I not looked at my watch list and my notes, I would have purchased the Weston property.

More than that, I gave them positive reviews which are now seemingly worthless with this new business model.

 

[uscav8r]

I've was going around with Jeff Brown about this property. I have purchased twice from them and it went very well.
...
More than that, I gave them positive reviews which are now seemingly worthless with this new business model.

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water and calling your positive reviews "worthless" why don't you just voice your opinion to Jeff. You seem to have a rapport with him and this is something that can be sorted out privately as opposed to publicly. That seems to be a lost art in these days of social media.




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[Braindead]

I've was going around with Jeff Brown about this property. I have purchased twice from them and it went very well.

They listed 3 Grandview properties on eBay and not on their site (when I was told that is ALWAYS goes on the site first.) They were having a 25% sale on their site. I was told that because of eBay rules, the auctions had to remain. So I had a snipe set up for that contract. Today is when I noticed that it had totally changed from Grandview to VV Weston.

I am aggravated. Not only did I have to wait 9 days, (these are time sensitive auctions since the Grandview UY is August 1,) but had I not looked at my watch list and my notes, I would have purchased the Weston property.

More than that, I gave them positive reviews which are now seemingly worthless with this new business model.

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water and calling your positive reviews "worthless" why don't you just voice your opinion to Jeff. You seem to have a rapport with him and this is something that can be sorted out privately as opposed to publicly. That seems to be a lost art in these days of social media.




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Lesson learned to all. Go ahead and bid the minimum before putting in a snipe bid.

When bendadin posted on the Wyndham side. I knew which company she was talking about but did not expose them either. Respecting her post not to.

We are not talking about an individual editing an ad and changing the property entirely.

We are talking about a eBay seller with a very good reputation. I think this was beneath them and shouldn't of been done.
Ounce Sumday makes the decision to take a property to auction then it should sell at auction. Unless they attach a buy it now price.

I'm glad bendadin posted. Maybe Jeff and Sumday will think twice before doing it again.

TUG is not here to protect companies from negative posts or have them sugar coated.

We all post on the Wyndham side. I don't see much protection or sugar coating there. We all have a rapport with Wyndham also

 

[JeffBrown]

I've was going around with Jeff Brown about this property. I have purchased twice from them and it went very well.

They listed 3 Grandview properties on eBay and not on their site (when I was told that is ALWAYS goes on the site first.) They were having a 25% sale on their site. I was told that because of eBay rules, the auctions had to remain. So I had a snipe set up for that contract. Today is when I noticed that it had totally changed from Grandview to VV Weston.

I am aggravated. Not only did I have to wait 9 days, (these are time sensitive auctions since the Grandview UY is August 1,) but had I not looked at my watch list and my notes, I would have purchased the Weston property.

More than that, I gave them positive reviews which are now seemingly worthless with this new business model.

1. I've been trying to correspond with this client through Tug's email string for the last 6 days, I did tell them right up front that I was and still am on my family vacation and that they really should contact my exec sec and gave her contact details. All of this could've been avoided if they had simply.

2. The OP is incorrect about Sumday not listing the properties on our own site first. These are the 3 properties they questioned me about with their notations:

This listing never showed up on your site: FREE USE 61,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV68159-53082.
( 391786869709 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 5/1/17 TO 5/17/17 FOR $2175

There are two other Grandview listings as well:
FREE USE 98,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV68159-53061
( 391786867000 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 5/1/17 TO 5/17/17 FOR $3500

98,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV65415-51350
( 112410396491 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 1/24/17 TO 5/17/17 AS IT'S 2018 USE FOR $1500

3. During my correspondence with the OP I specifically asked them if they would like to make an offer on any of the properties and we would try to accommodate. They chose not to offer but did not state anything about sniping or bidding. I can't read minds.

4. Sumday will not force you to complete any sale whether it was changed or not so you are welcome to use snipe bids on our auctions. But, when all this comes down to said and done, Sumday is looking for a new owner and that is our #1 concern so we will almost always accept any offer deemed reasonable no matter whether the property is on our website or ebay. That being said, ebay allows the changing of ads that have received no bids and we will take advantage of those situations if we can. Our ebay expense is extreme and every savings counts. You may not agree with that but this is not new it has been going on for over 3 years at this point, so it is not a new business model.

5. None of anything we do is to operate unethically, in fact we do everything we can to be the most ethical in the business. But, that doesn't mean that I won't make some of you irritated as we may not be able to please everyone but we will always keep trying as the industry is always changing.

As always, I will answer everyone's questions and do my best to assist, if you wish to contact me directly it is jeffbrown@sumdayvacations.com or my right hand is Michelle Nordin, michelle@sumdayvacations.com.
Jeff Brown
Sumday Vacations

 

[Braindead]

1. I've been trying to correspond with this client through Tug's email string for the last 6 days, I did tell them right up front that I was and still am on my family vacation and that they really should contact my exec sec and gave her contact details. All of this could've been avoided if they had simply.

2. The OP is incorrect about Sumday not listing the properties on our own site first. These are the 3 properties they questioned me about with their notations:

This listing never showed up on your site: FREE USE 61,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV68159-53082.
( 391786869709 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 5/1/17 TO 5/17/17 FOR $2175

There are two other Grandview listings as well:
FREE USE 98,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV68159-53061
( 391786867000 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 5/1/17 TO 5/17/17 FOR $3500

98,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV65415-51350
( 112410396491 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 1/24/17 TO 5/17/17 AS IT'S 2018 USE FOR $1500

3. During my correspondence with the OP I specifically asked them if they would like to make an offer on any of the properties and we would try to accommodate. They chose not to offer but did not state anything about sniping or bidding. I can't read minds.

4. Sumday will not force you to complete any sale whether it was changed or not so you are welcome to use snipe bids on our auctions. But, when all this comes down to said and done, Sumday is looking for a new owner and that is our #1 concern so we will almost always accept any offer deemed reasonable no matter whether the property is on our website or ebay. That being said, ebay allows the changing of ads that have received no bids and we will take advantage of those situations if we can. Our ebay expense is extreme and every savings counts. You may not agree with that but this is not new it has been going on for over 3 years at this point, so it is not a new business model.

5. None of anything we do is to operate unethically, in fact we do everything we can to be the most ethical in the business. But, that doesn't mean that I won't make some of you irritated as we may not be able to please everyone but we will always keep trying as the industry is always changing.

As always, I will answer everyone's questions and do my best to assist, if you wish to contact me directly it is jeffbrown@sumdayvacations.com or my right hand is Michelle Nordin, michelle@sumdayvacations.com.
Jeff Brown
Sumday Vacations

You have a stellar reputation. There are new buyers on eBay everyday that don't know your business model.

Why don't you attach a buy it know price if that's what you are willing to do ?

 

[uscav8r]

Lesson learned to all. Go ahead and bid the minimum before putting in a snipe bid.

When bendadin posted on the Wyndham side. I knew which company she was talking about but did not expose them either. Respecting her post not to.

We are not talking about an individual editing an ad and changing the property entirely.

We are talking about a eBay seller with a very good reputation. I think this was beneath them and shouldn't of been done.
Ounce Sumday makes the decision to take a property to auction then it should sell at auction. Unless they attach a buy it now price.

I'm glad bendadin posted. Maybe Jeff and Sumday will think twice before doing it again.

TUG is not here to protect companies from negative posts or have them sugar coated.

We all post on the Wyndham side. I don't see much protection or sugar coating there. We all have a rapport with Wyndham also

Except Wyndham does not have a singular point of entry or face man who is accessible. Comparing a small business to Wyndham is like comparing apples and apple trucks.

All I offer is that reputable eBay sellers can be hard to find. But I have found that situations like this that seem out of character for such a company are often due to a miscommunication (or a lack of communication). Reputable companies certainly have earned the courtesy of being notified of such offense directly.

If one wishes to go straight to social media to call out a company for wrongdoing without first engaging said company, one has the right to do so, but it does not make it "right."

If, after direct engagement there is no reasonable solution, then by all means take to the airwaves. JMHO.

Thank you for bringing up your experience as it could well be a pitfall for any eBay listing.





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[md8287]

That being said, ebay allows the changing of ads that have received no bids and we will take advantage of those situations if we can. Our ebay expense is extreme and every savings counts. You may not agree with that but this is not new it has been going on for over 3 years at this point, so it is not a new business model.
Jeff Brown
Sumday Vacations

Jeff, for many of us this is an alarming wake up call. Not all the points raised by OP necessarily, but the eBay listing being fully changed. I now understand this is your standard practice for 3 years, and likely others do it too. I understand the need to save money and you pay a lot to eBay but imo it's a bad practice even though allowed by eBay.

If I may put out there, for your consideration, how much you actually save from this practice. I don't imagine it is all that much as you are only talking listing fees. If it is more than 1% of your sales I would be surprised and if it is less then maybe you will consider taking the high road and change your policy.

All that said, other than this, I have only heard good things about you and SumDay.

 

[breezez]

1. I've been trying to correspond with this client through Tug's email string for the last 6 days, I did tell them right up front that I was and still am on my family vacation and that they really should contact my exec sec and gave her contact details. All of this could've been avoided if they had simply.

2. The OP is incorrect about Sumday not listing the properties on our own site first. These are the 3 properties they questioned me about with their notations:

This listing never showed up on your site: FREE USE 61,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV68159-53082.
( 391786869709 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 5/1/17 TO 5/17/17 FOR $2175

There are two other Grandview listings as well:
FREE USE 98,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV68159-53061
( 391786867000 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 5/1/17 TO 5/17/17 FOR $3500

98,000 RCI POINTS/GRANDVIEW AT LAS VEGAS LAS VEGAS, NV SV65415-51350
( 112410396491 ) THIS ONE WAS ON THE WEB ON 1/24/17 TO 5/17/17 AS IT'S 2018 USE FOR $1500

3. During my correspondence with the OP I specifically asked them if they would like to make an offer on any of the properties and we would try to accommodate. They chose not to offer but did not state anything about sniping or bidding. I can't read minds.

As the OP. I have only had 2 communications with you, both through eBay 1 for the 61K, and 1 for the 98K annual contract. At no time have I contacted you through TUG or gotten communication from you via TUG perhaps you are referring to the other poster who had also communicated about this auction. Nobody mentioned anything about being on vacation or to contact your exec sec.

Like I said earlier, If I could change the title of the thread I would, people seem to feel your very ethical, and that is great and hopefully one day I'll buy something off of you, But put yourself in my shoes. I always verify what is being sold, found way to many times listing info wrong especially when people bulk load many. Once you verify and get confirmation I load my bids into bidding software, mainly because eBay is a muck with shill bidders. But it is a little harry when the item you are going to bid on 100% materially changes from original listing and what was confirmed to you. I knew people updated listings add better photos etc, but I have never seen one 100% change midway through the listing.

The main point of my warning is to warn people that auction listings could be changed 100% from original listing which was something I and I assume many others were un aware of

Here is copy of my one and only correspondence I had with you via eBay on the 98K auction.

 

[JeffBrown]

[QUOTE="md8287, post: 2012588, member: 91539"I understand the need to save money and you pay a lot to eBay but imo it's a bad practice even though allowed by eBay.

If I may put out there, for your consideration, how much you actually save from this practice. I don't imagine it is all that much as you are only talking listing fees. If it is more than 1% of your sales I would be surprised and if it is less then maybe you will consider taking the high road and change your policy.
[/QUOTE]
Every buyer and string about Sumday on TUG usually talks about (at some point) how we keep our prices low and we are upfront about our fees. In my business, raising prices to pay it to ebay expenses is not going to work well for me, however, it would work well for my competitors. We run 2-3 ebay accounts at all times, 5 relists per week x 3 accounts x 4.3 weeks in every month x $38.65 listing fee (real estate listings are not cheap) means that monthly it is just under $2500 savings and just under $90,000 savings in 3 years.

When you look at the average sale price on ebay for a timeshare being less than $50 that is 1800 timeshares that were advertised in that market instead of just my website. Which also means a lot more timeshares finding a new home.

I appreciate all input but if you look at this just a little differently. This has been common practice since ebay changed it's policies/procedures 3 years ago and sellers just like myself have to look at every advertising dollar to get the most bang for the buck. So, this is the only time it's been brought up in tug in 3 years and noone has ever contacted us through ebay or our office about this being an issue. In the absolute worst case scenario, the OP's snipe bid won a timeshare that he didn't want, he sends us a message through ebay or however and he's released from the sale, we relist it. If I felt that was harming any of my client's I wouldn't do it.

 

[JeffBrown]

As the OP. I have only had 2 communications with you, both through eBay 1 for the 61K, and 1 for the 98K annual contract. At no time have I contacted you through TUG or gotten communication from you via TUG perhaps you are referring to the other poster who had also communicated about this auction.

Breezez,
You are correct, I misread the string and thought benadin was the OP, my sincere apologies.

 

[md8287]

$30,000 a year is meaningful, at least to me. Thanks. Point taken.

 

[VegasBella]

I don't know about Sumday except that they have a good reputation here on TUG. I will say, however, that if a timeshare auction interests you then you should contact the seller directly and offer the amount you would set your snipe bid to. That's how I got my best deal! I would never have wanted to risk it on a snipe bid.

 

[Braindead]

I will say, however, that if a timeshare auction interests you then you should contact the seller directly and offer the amount you would set your snipe bid to. That's how I got my best deal! I would never have wanted to risk it on a snipe bid.

I would not advise others to do that. You have almost certainly paid more than you should've at times.