(Arkansas deeded week) must I convert to RCI Points?

[FatOldAggie]

Our home timeshare is Emerald Isle in Hot Springs, Arkansas. We bought a week several years ago, paid in full, with a deed that was explained to me as perpetual under Arkansas law.

The property has changed ownership, and the new owners ran a "meeting" of the owners (which was attended by only a handful of owners, apparently) where they decided to convert everyone to RCI points.

We don't want to participate in this conversion. We paid for a deed to our week, at Emerald Isle, that's what we want. We do not want to have to pay even more to RCI for the privilege of keeping the deeded week that we already paid for.

The documentation from the new property managers has been very sparse - a couple of chirpy, sales-y letters telling us how great it'll be, and a simple form they want us to send back, agreeing to the change.

I refused to send the form back. Instead I called the office, several different times, speaking with several different people, getting different answers every time.

My question to the board: Is it even legally possible under Arkansas law to forcibly "convert" my deeded week to points? I suspect not, but I need to be sure. If it is, can someone point me to the relevant law / how they do it?

Assuming they are just being salespeople and in fact our week is still our week, I'd appreciate any help in fighting this battle.

As I told one of the employees, we enjoy our week, we love the resort, but we have no interest in being RCI members or exchanging weeks. So that brings no value at all to us.

thanks

 

[Passepartout]

If you like your week, and don't want to buy into a points scheme, you don't have to. Your deed will stand up permanently. Lots of resort HOAs 'voted' to promote these deals. It costs them some amount under $500 (some say as little as $200) to RCI, and they sell these 'upgrades' for $3000ish. The profit- less marketing costs- go into the HOA's coffers. It also allows them to basically market 'mud weeks' that were unsaleable as full-on 'red' or prime weeks and get full-on fees as if they were.

No one can force you to change your deed, so continue to hold what you have.

Welcome to TUG!

Jim

 

[AwayWeGo]

No way, José.

[M]ust I convert to RCI Points?

They can't force you to convert to points.

Plus, from all I read on TUG-BBS, conversion is always way too expensive for what you get out of it.

Basically, they want you to pay them big bux for another, slightly different, version of what you already own. Shux upon that.

Stick with your straight week if that's what suits you.

And if you ever decide to take the RCI Points plunge, you'll be able to do so for lots less than any timeshare company charges you to convert what you already own.

How ?

Via resale on eBay. (Example: For roughly $200, we got an eBay non-dinky triennial 2BR Kissimmee FL points unit with free closing, free resort transfer, & free paid-ahead maintenance fees. That was 3-4 years ago, but similar deals are still out there. Seek & ye shall find.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[TUGBrian]

very common question we get =)

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/convert_timeshare_deeded_week_to_points.html

 

[FatOldAggie]

Wow! Great fast responses, thanks all! Will stick to my position and check back in as things develop.

In the meanwhile I'm also looking into have a lawyer send a nastygram, and/or filing a complaint with the Ark real estate commission.

 

[silentg]

In one word No! If you don't want to belong to RCI you don't have to. Not all of my weeks are in RCI. Is nice to have a choice. If you only stay at your home resort and are happy, then they better leave you alone! You were there first! Stick to your guns and enjoy your timeshare!
Silentg

 

[vacationtime1]

Wow! Great fast responses, thanks all! Will stick to my position and check back in as things develop.

In the meanwhile I'm also looking into have a lawyer send a nastygram, and/or filing a complaint with the Ark real estate commission.

Hold off on the nastygram; it will do no good.

Keep calm, and continue to say 'no'.

Most important: congratulate yourself on getting good advice and taking it.

 

[TUGBrian]

vs sending a nasty letter, try to find another owner at your resort in the same position and share the information you got here!

 

[yatso]

Maybe, maybe not

I too am a member at Emerald Isle. Initially based on comments here at TUG, I was convinced I did not have to accept the Property Owner's Association's actions regarding converting to a points system.

Unfortunately while researching my rights under the original deed paperwork, I came across a court filing that may conflict with the opinions here. It seems the POA filed with the local courts to grant them the right to change the deed based on imminent financial distress. Here is the link to the filing:
circuit051.courtconnect.net/docsdms/Default.aspx?A=106/CK_IMAGE.PresentRange?token:0134c739aa3fd621dccd313205a87719940c53b5123d6adb90158791a8dc38aae7f4aea8dcea60c5133aaa1f688d21958a9d02d42fa37b60ebf09e699e25e0737737772dab5e23c6d4f4fda426ff056e9b814db9b5993061cf2580343c5551ce


While some of this has been "fishy" (the notary public is the hired property manager), nevertheless if the court granted the petition I'm not sure we have any recourse.

 

[theo]

I too am a member at Emerald Isle. Initially based on comments here at TUG, I was convinced I did not have to accept the Property Owner's Association's actions regarding converting to a points system.

Unfortunately while researching my rights under the original deed paperwork, I came across a court filing that may conflict with the opinions here. It seems the POA filed with the local courts to grant them the right to change the deed based on imminent financial distress. Here is the link to the filing:
circuit051.courtconnect.net/docsdms/Default.aspx?A=106/CK_IMAGE.PresentRange?token:0134c739aa3fd621dccd313205a87719940c53b5123d6adb90158791a8dc38aae7f4aea8dcea60c5133aaa1f688d21958a9d02d42fa37b60ebf09e699e25e0737737772dab5e23c6d4f4fda426ff056e9b814db9b5993061cf2580343c5551ce


While some of this has been "fishy" (the notary public is the hired property manager), nevertheless if the court granted the petition I'm not sure we have any recourse.

I claim no knowledge of Arkansas law. You may be correct about a lack of recourse if court authority has somehow been obtained and invoked in this matter. However, if that is actually the case, why did the resort ever even bother to actively seek signature approval from owners if they never needed it in the first place?

Btw, there is nothing "fishy" about using an "in house" notary. In the final analysis, a notary public signature / stamp really constitutes nothing more than verification of the identities of signing parties. No more, no less, no great shakes; notary public has no other "authority", so it's merely a matter of logistical convenience.

 

[TUGBrian]

in that case above were the owners also forced to pay a conversion fee?

huge difference in the resort pressuring you into converting to points for a large fee, and them doing it for free.

 

[FatOldAggie]

Thanks for the update. We just returned from our week (Thanksgiving) and had no problems with registration etc. I did speak briefly with eh nice ladies in the office, who were unable to give me any more info than we've already received.

When I asked the specific question: "if this is a done deal then why do you need my agreement?" they were unable to give me an answer, instead making references to RCI and points and how that works. I already know how RCI and points work, that wasn't my question.

So at this point I'm not planning on being there again til next year; we've already paid our annual dues, so I see no reason to return the form. Will update here if anything develops.

 

[bogey21]

IMO if what the Board said in their pleadings is true;i.e. that the HOA owns over half the Weeks and that without MF income from these Weeks the Resort will be insolvent in two years, OP should at least be open to the conversion but only after completely understanding its ramifications and chance for success. IMO OP's only other alternative is to give them his Week too.

George

 

[dioxide45]

Can a resort force all owners to convert their week to RCI points? I thought it was something that each owner had to buy in to? A property only signs up to start selling the RCI points option.

 

[yatso]

I claim no knowledge of Arkansas law. You may be correct about a lack of recourse if court authority has somehow been obtained and invoked in this matter. However, if that is actually the case, why did the resort ever even bother to actively seek signature approval from owners if they never needed it in the first place?

They are not actively seeking approval, they are actively seeking payment, albeit a small fee of $150. Considering the MF is only 550, this is a pretty significant yearly increase.

in that case above were the owners also forced to pay a conversion fee?

huge difference in the resort pressuring you into converting to points for a large fee, and them doing it for free.

We are being forced into the conversion fee, just not a huge fee - but they are doing nothing for free. I am just not interested in any points system and don't want to pay for something I'm not going to use.

IMO if what the Board said in their pleadings is true;i.e. that the HOA owns over half the Weeks and that without MF income from these Weeks the Resort will be insolvent in two years, OP should at least be open to the conversion but only after completely understanding its ramifications and chance for success. IMO OP's only other alternative is to give them his Week too.

George

Not sure what you mean here - again, they are not giving us an option to "be open to the conversion", they are holding our 2016 week hostage to the conversion fee. My most recent communication states explicitly that if I do not pay the RCI fee then I will not be able to use my week.

What is this alternative "to give them his Week too"?

 

[glmyers]

It depends.

Can a resort force all owners to convert their week to RCI points? I thought it was something that each owner had to buy in to? A property only signs up to start selling the RCI points option.

There is never a single answer to a real estate question that is always correct other than to say, "it depends." That is never more true than when dealing with a timeshare property. Timeshares, and other common ownership structures are partnerships governed by rules. The rules are unique to each development, but laws provide some level of standardization.

If the bylaws of the HOA say they can force owners into a points system, they can force owners into a points system. In this instance it would appear the bylaws do indeed provide that power thanks to an amendment push through via court order. Only an appeal of the court order could change that and only a fool challenges an HOA of which they are a member in court. (You would in essence be both plaintiff and defendant.)

 

[TUGBrian]

what is the "fee" they are forcing you to pay? what is the explanation for the fee?

id for one go tell them to pound sand if asking for some sort of mandatory conversion fee.

 

[decadude]

I am

Don't deal money with resort timeshare sales reps ONLY buy resale as others have mention you can buy the same thing resale that is already converted to points for 1000s of times cheaper.

One poster already said it best basically you will pay $3000 on average to convert what you already own to something equal to what you already own but just a different trading unit.

In some cases now this is my opinion you would end up paying $3000 and down converting what you own the points allocations versus TPU allocations for certain weeks doesn't pan out.

 

[theo]

Looking for this dark clouds' silver lining...

There is never a single answer to a real estate question that is always correct other than to say, "it depends." That is never more true than when dealing with a timeshare property. Timeshares, and other common ownership structures are partnerships governed by rules. The rules are unique to each development, but laws provide some level of standardization.

If the bylaws of the HOA say they can force owners into a points system, they can force owners into a points system. In this instance it would appear the bylaws do indeed provide that power thanks to an amendment push through via court order. Only an appeal of the court order could change that and only a fool challenges an HOA of which they are a member in court. (You would in essence be both plaintiff and defendant.)

Astute, wise and correct observations above.

Looking at a potential bright side to the matter at hand, if a "forced conversion" to RCI Points does in fact occur with Court approval via a recorded Declaration amendment, there might actually be (apart and aside from the unwelcome $150 fee increase) relatively minor impact on a fixed week owner:

1. Involuntary membership in RCI Points (with its' associated membership fees) might be unwelcome if / when an impacted owner might otherwise (understandably, IMnsHO) want nothing whatsoever to do with RCI in the first place, and...

2. Former fixed week owner(s) becoming obliged to now, for the first time, overtly "reserve in advance" their own underlying deeded week if intending to use same under "RCI Points". Presumably (or should I say hopefully?), the resort would not be so shady as to ever (unlawfully, btw) attempt to change the underlying deeded week in the course of a "forced conversion to RCI Points", but...

3. The HOA might very well find it much easier to gain new (...fee-paying) owners, since even the doggiest of dog weeks become weeks with "value added" with their newly associated RCI Points. People who have no interest in using this resort might still have interest in acquiring a RCI Points week if the m.f. / points ratio is attractive --- and then use those RCI Points elsewhere. The end result could help save a place clearly in financial trouble (if more than half the weeks are indeed currently owned by the HOA and therefore bringing in no maintenance fees at all). 50+% of weeks being HOA-owned is a recipe for imminent financial disaster at any timeshare facility --- and probably sooner rather than later --- so having the place go to RCI Points might very well be a preferable alternative to insolvency and having to just close the doors completely.

 

[bogey21]

What is this alternative "to give them his Week too"?

The pleading says that the POA owns more than 2,000 weeks with only approximately 863 owned by regular Weeks Owners. It goes on to say that the Weeks owned by the POA were acquired "through foreclosure or deed in lieu proceedings, estate proceedings, or other conveyances in which the property owner/debtor simply conveyed the outstanding unit week back to the Board of Administration". (Emphasis added)

I am merely suggesting that OP could point this out to them and ask them to take OP's Week off his hands.

George

 

[bogey21]

The HOA might well now find it much more likely to gain some new (...fee-paying) owners, since even the doggiest of dog weeks become weeks with "value added" with their associated RCI Points. People who have no interest in using this resort might still have interest in acquiring a RCI Points week if the m.f. / points ratio is attractive.

This is exactly how I joined RCI Points many years ago. Perigrine, a Resort in San Luis Pass, Texas offered me a dog Week they converted to RCI Points for an "all-in" cost to me of $100. It worked for me as I had a cheap entree into RCI Points and it worked for the Resort as they converted a HOA Owned Week into one paying MFs.

George