Are there major problems at Wyndham Oceanwalk?

[timeos2]

It's closed now

John,
Is the lazy river working?

Reports from multiple sources as of last week say NO. It is roped off, closed & "green" (not in an environmentally correct way). What will happen going forward or exactly why it was shut down isn't entirely clear. It could be a physical (repair) problem that simply needs new parts. It could be a purposeful shutdown of the costly amenity by the controlling Association (the whole ownership condos NOT the timeshare Association controls it) or kind of a combination where it has broken and the Association refuses to pay to repair it.

Unfortunately there is very little information being given out - none from the staff on site as to the status - and Wyndham has a rather poor history of relations with Associations they don't hold control over. They tend to play the heavy and get into costly, drawn out litigation that often seems to end badly. It isn't a good sign for OW.

 

[timeos2]

They own the land - they control the features there

The deeds and related paperwork at the time of sale would need to be reviewed. I would suspect that part of the responabilities of the Property Owners Association would be to perform maintance. A attorney would need to review the paperwork. If their is a violation, I do not know if a attorney would take it on a contingency basis or not. You could probably get a free or negligable cost review. The Bar Association in Flordia I think has a referral service that the initial review was something like 15 dollars.

It seems that the portion of the property that is home to the lazy river isn't under the control of the timeshare side. As long as the whole owner side has control and doesn't charge the timeshare owners to operate/maintain the lazy river they are most likely within their rights to shut it down.

This is an all too common problem when two, unrelated owners Associations with different priorities decide to share facilities. Someone actually owns and controls it - they get the final say. Things are all sweet when the fancy new amenity gets installed at developer expense and "only" the maintenance/operation cost is the Associations responsibility. But once the bills start coming in there can be those that "don't use & don't want" various features and if they have control can and do shut it down or even remove it. It is very hard to get equal say for two groups & even harder to get them to 100% agree on what is needed and what is a luxury.

In this case whole owners probably don't use a lazy river much and as they are both the owners of the property and the majority of units ultimately it may be their call as to the fate of the lazy river. Again, not a good thng for the timeshare owners that already have fewer amenities than many resorts and an area that isn't the best either. Hopefully this will be worked out but right now it doesn't look good.

 

[timeos2]

Whole owners bailing is hurting the project

UPDATE:

I happen to have a customer/friend who actually owns more than 10 units (whole ownership) at Oceanwalk. He says the Association has voted to close the lazy river and some other common features under their control. This is a direct result of the bad economy hurting many of those owners who bought mostly to rent for income. He says the values of the units have plummeted and fees are being cut to try to avoid more delinquencies. Apparently the whole owner side is not happy, have serious debt issues and are looking to save every dollar they can. He admits it may be shortsighted as further deterioration can't possibly help keep resale values up but the bigger probem is the growing amount of defaults. He kinda crowed for years about what a great investment it has been (vs the non-investment / lack of resale value of the timeshares) but now says he & his partners are looking to bail ASAP to hopefully stop the financial bleeding. They only managed to rent about 2/3 of the available time last year and took a huge loss overall. The bloom is gone for both sides now.

 

[ldw]

We have an exchange at Ocean Walk coming up in May, so I am really disappointed to find out how bad things are going there. Does anyone know what other amenities they are planning to close?

 

[Trinity524]

While I understand that the pool is a huge expense, they still are making money off that building. Example- I just bought resale on ebay, looked on the public records and saw 9 months ago my contract was $27,000. Now to be perfectly honest, I see alot of foreclosures and property going back to Wyndham, but how is Wyndham going to sell that property and no pool? I didn't have a burning desire for Daytona, but I have family in Palm Coast, so I figured I should own where I wouldn't mind staying if I had to. I suppose it's just weird to hear about it going under when you know they own so many units.

 

[timeos2]

While I understand that the pool is a huge expense, they still are making money off that building. Example- I just bought resale on ebay, looked on the public records and saw 9 months ago my contract was $27,000. Now to be perfectly honest, I see alot of foreclosures and property going back to Wyndham, but how is Wyndham going to sell that property and no pool? I didn't have a burning desire for Daytona, but I have family in Palm Coast, so I figured I should own where I wouldn't mind staying if I had to. I suppose it's just weird to hear about it going under when you know they own so many units.

It certainly isn't going to help sales , which have been greatly curtailed anyway by heavy staff reductions. But the key is they do not control that feature. The lazy river is located on a part of the property that has majority control by the whole unit owners not the timeshare owners. While they do hold a great number of units it is less than the whole owners hold thus control lies outside of Wyndhams influence.

It is a big problem and this is far from the only resort that suffers from this type of basic conflict between Associations. Everyone always wants control but only one ultimately does. Usually that is the side that holds the property rights for the area/amenity in question.

 

[rrlongwell]

While I understand that the pool is a huge expense, they still are making money off that building. Example- I just bought resale on ebay, looked on the public records and saw 9 months ago my contract was $27,000. Now to be perfectly honest, I see alot of foreclosures and property going back to Wyndham, but how is Wyndham going to sell that property and no pool? I didn't have a burning desire for Daytona, but I have family in Palm Coast, so I figured I should own where I wouldn't mind staying if I had to. I suppose it's just weird to hear about it going under when you know they own so many units.

Is Wyndham taking title or the Property Owner's Association on the timeshares?

 

[vacationhopeful]

I spent over an hour looking up realtor ads and viewing pictures of full-share units for sale. Everyone of the ads had OLD furnishings, white cabinets and appliances, and old TVs. One had there rentals figures to show how much they received for the 2008 year . Yes, original everything. The one bedroom only unit had two double beds in bedroom vs a king.

I called one realtor (cell number in ad and the cheapest listing) and his only question was, "Are you paying cash? There is no financing available for this building." Requested I send him an email as he was on the road. My email response from him was "Are you paying cash? There is no financing ..." without answering ANY of my questions in the email. That's ok, as I asked him on my phone call, if that was because of the outlanished lawsuit going on - twice. Said it was because it was condo-hotel; yet another ad, bragged that FOR SALE unit could be lived in year round and homesteaded.

 

[vacationhopeful]

Now to be perfectly honest, I see alot of foreclosures and property going back to Wyndham, but how is Wyndham going to sell that property and no pool? I didn't have a burning desire for Daytona, but I have family in Palm Coast, so I figured I should own where I wouldn't mind staying if I had to. I suppose it's just weird to hear about it going under when you know they own so many units.

That sales force was pretty good at selling and making the rental option look like a winner. People brought to rent for all the events. But it takes 2 years to get into the cycle of ARP bookings for events. The past 2 years event rentals have been very soft. Cheap motels are good enough when money is tight. Plus, when schedules/dates change - ARP advantages are worthless.

Owners have been dumping big packages for better than 2 years. 400K in pts for $50 or less. But you have to be Platimum for the upgrades and some free Guest Certificates. And you have to manage your points aggressively, IMHO.

Foreclosures would reflect that "owning timeshares is not a for profit rental business which will pay your buy in costs, MFs, ads, and family vacations".

 

[timeos2]

Is Wyndham taking title or the Property Owner's Association on the timeshares?

That would depend on what account was past due. If it was the purchase loan then Wyndham or the finance company would be foreclosing & taking title. If it is only the fees that are delinquent then the Association would be the one taking foreclosure action. If both are past due then the primary lien would be the purchase cost & thus Wyndham/finance company would go after those.

 

[jjmanthei05]

It certainly isn't going to help sales , which have been greatly curtailed anyway by heavy staff reductions. But the key is they do not control that feature. The lazy river is located on a part of the property that has majority control by the whole unit owners not the timeshare owners. While they do hold a great number of units it is less than the whole owners hold thus control lies outside of Wyndhams influence.

It is a big problem and this is far from the only resort that suffers from this type of basic conflict between Associations. Everyone always wants control but only one ultimately does. Usually that is the side that holds the property rights for the area/amenity in question.

John,

Is this one reason for the "pro" side of developer controlled HOA boards? If Wyndham was in charge, I doubt they would be shutting down amenities.

Jason

 

[timeos2]

John,

Is this one reason for the "pro" side of developer controlled HOA boards? If Wyndham was in charge, I doubt they would be shutting down amenities.

Jason

No, it would have to be a "con" side of sharing amenities. No matter who has control of management (and in this case it IS Wyndham) they cannot overrule the Association that holds control over the property in question (in this case the lazy river).

Cindy has posted a great deal about similar problems with her small, northern resort and the conflicts between the whole owners & the timeshare side. Even when two timeshares share things problems can arise as each group has their own priorities (and costs) that don't necessarily line up with each other. Then conflicts arise. It is very tough to get the sides to fully agree especially when costs get spread to both.

 

[vacationhopeful]

John,

Is this one reason for the "pro" side of developer controlled HOA boards? If Wyndham was in charge, I doubt they would be shutting down amenities.

Jason

Actually, the judge in the $50 million lawsuit GAVE the fullshare owners the checkbook to run the HOA ... Wyndham lost that point in a ruling several months ago.
Wyndham is appealling that partial ruling; fullshare owners claimed as there was no access to records, they didn't know what was being paid, if it was rightfully due as a bill to be paid, etc.

 

[jjmanthei05]

No, it would have to be a "con" side of sharing amenities. No matter who has control of management (and in this case it IS Wyndham) they cannot overrule the Association that holds control over the property in question (in this case the lazy river).

Cindy has posted a great deal about similar problems with her small, northern resort and the conflicts between the whole owners & the timeshare side. Even when two timeshares share things problems can arise as each group has their own priorities (and costs) that don't necessarily line up with each other. Then conflicts arise. It is very tough to get the sides to fully agree especially when costs get spread to both.

John,

I know it's not a pro. I just thought I would try and rib you a little bit...

Jason

 

[Maurie17]

Daytona Ocean Walk Lazy River

Just received a phone call from Wyndham regarding an upcoming reservation at Ocean Walk and the recording said that the lazy river was closed due to mechanical failure. Guess they wanted to get their version of the truth out there before owners and guests arrived especially since this is a big weekend coming up with Bike Week.
Maurie

 

[siesta]

John,

I know it's not a pro. I just thought I would try and rib you a little bit...

Jason

jj, stay on John's good side. when Westgate finally files for bankruptcy, he is going to throw one hell of a party.

 

[timeos2]

John,

I know it's not a pro. I just thought I would try and rib you a little bit...

Jason

You got me - I bit! Thanks for the laugh

 

[rrlongwell]

Just received a phone call from Wyndham regarding an upcoming reservation at Ocean Walk and the recording said that the lazy river was closed due to mechanical failure. Guess they wanted to get their version of the truth out there before owners and guests arrived especially since this is a big weekend coming up with Bike Week.
Maurie

Or because they do not want complaints of misrpresentation. Just thought the people interested in this tread take a peek at what is currently showing for Amenities on the Wyndham Vacation Resorts site.

Amenities
2 Outdoor Swimming Pools
Lazy River & Water Slide
Beach
3 Outdoor Hot Tubs
Game Room
Indoor Miniature Golf
2 Indoor Swimming Pools
“Get Out & Play” Activities Program
Exercise Equipment
Restaurant
Live Entertainment

 

[timeos2]

What they deed is what is supposed to be available

Or because they do not want complaints of misrpresentation. Just thought the people interested in this tread take a peek at what is currently showing for Amenities on the Wyndham Vacation Resorts site.

Amenities
2 Outdoor Swimming Pools
Lazy River & Water Slide
Beach
3 Outdoor Hot Tubs
Game Room
Indoor Miniature Golf
2 Indoor Swimming Pools
“Get Out & Play” Activities Program
Exercise Equipment
Restaurant
Live Entertainment

Interesting thought. There are very strict laws regarding things sold on a deeded basis (although expressed in points the underlying deed / UDI at all Wyndham resorts are based on the home property). If it is a scheduled item of features sold as part of the property removing it or closing it without ownership approval is a risky move. In theory they could be forced to build/operate a new one on the property IF a strong owners group sued for specific performance on the deeded rights granted. It's unlikely of course but could happen. More $$ potentially wasted in either legal battles, additional construction required or both. This isn't a minor change/upgrade from an outdated/obsolete VHS player to a DVD player that most owners would accept without a fight. This is a major feature suddenly gone after being promised and delivered at least for awhile. It's not good.

 

[Jan&Ern]

Lazy River/Slide Closed

I just got notified this week by RCI the slide and lazy river will be closed through April 1. We check in on 3/19 but don't typically use either of these when lounging around the pools. I didn't see in this thread why they are closed but it is troubling. I thought they might be closed due to the crush of guests at the resort during spring break. We've stayed at OW numerous times and always enjoyed it. I hope things haven't gone downhill!

 

[jjmanthei05]

Would it be possible for the other tower to take over the lazy river if the whole ownership side didn't want the it but the timeshare portion did?

Jason

 

[timeos2]

Share and sahre alike doesn't always work so well

Would it be possible for the other tower to take over the lazy river if the whole ownership side didn't want the it but the timeshare portion did?

Jason

Possibly but then the full - and substantial - cost of operation/maintenance would fall on the relatively small number of timeshare owners vs all owners as it is now. Plus they would have to agree to allow an easement for access and agree to if or how whole owners and their guests/renters would or would not have access to that feature. Can you imagine trying to police the use of a feature like that for those allowed and those not and the hard feelings that would create?

As usually seems to occur the idea of sharing expensive elements is attractive at first and a great selling point. But as the realities of ongoing operations and maintenance costs become known it is often a point of contention between Associations. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

[rrlongwell]

Possibly but then the full - and substantial - cost of operation/maintenance would fall on the relatively small number of timeshare owners vs all owners as it is now. ...

Do not know what is happening at that resort, but there was talk of a lawsuite. My guess is most of the documents addressing the lazy river and pool and all related issues are probably public record through the court at this point. That would probably include the agreements between the POAs, the developers, Wyndham, etc. that are currently in force or were in force. If both groups got to use the pool and lazy river in the past, my guess is there is or were agreements. Found the two following paragraphs on the internet (different articles).

"Not now. The Board is suing Wyndham Vacation Resort and Wyndham Vacation Management, and the Management Company is suing the Board. The experience shows that when people are so involved in litigation, little has been done. Wyndham was very protective and the 5-member board used to have 3 members from Wyndham and only two representing so called whole owners. Last election the Board effectively disqualified 2 candidates from the election and ended with 4 members from the owners and 1 member from Wyndham, who also soon was replaced, though I do not have a clue why and how it happened."

The complaint alleges that Wyndham, which managed the condominium association, misused association money and staff for the benefit of their timeshare expenses. According to Craig Jackson, President of the association and banking executive, “We believe that our association is owed a significant amount of money due to the actions of Wyndham. What is hard to believe is that even though the board of directors fired them as our management company, Wyndham refuses to give us control of our bank account, bank records or financial information.” The lawsuit not only alleges that Wyndham misused association funds for their own benefit, but also claims that Wyndham hired an unlicensed manager to manage the association in violation of Florida law."

In another place one of the above articles indicated that Wyndham had their own board and the two boards did not reconize each other.

Third article extract: "The association countered that lawsuit by alleging Wyndham, which is a part the world's largest timeshare
company, was required to pay a fee for use of the facilities. The association said $10,000 a day was reasonable and demanded the company pay the fee or cease its operations at the resort." The association being referred to is the South Tower one and not the North Tower one.