Are people looking for a simpler life now?

[bogey21]

When I retired 20+ years ago I had the option of taking a large lump sum or a more than adequate monthly annuity (Pension) with an annual COLA. I chose the monthly payments. I honestly believe this choice has added years to me life. I have only one thing to monitor and that is the financial condition of the AAA rated entity making my Pension payments. I am totally immune from worrying about market gyrations and the ups and downs of an investment portfolio. I know some handle this well but I know myself. I wouldn't have...

George

 

[geekette]

....We also love watching our plants grow and tending to them. We have harvested our leafy greens twice already and we will be harvesting again for dinner tonight. Our tomato plants are just about ready to flower. We are indeed living the good life.


YAY! Thank you for this update, I wondered how that was going. Good job!

I find growing stuff to be fulfilling. I'm glad you are enjoying it. I think everything tastes better fresh picked, and I like keeping chemicals out. I have kind of been an organic gardener for a really long time.

There really is something about literally enjoying the fruits, or vegetables, of your labor. Please let us know when you get to taste the tomatoes! One fun summer, I experimented with different Bloody Mary recipes. With fresh tomatoes and herbs, flavors really pop. Just a thought, in case you need new things to do with tomatoes.

 

[VacationForever]

....We also love watching our plants grow and tending to them. We have harvested our leafy greens twice already and we will be harvesting again for dinner tonight. Our tomato plants are just about ready to flower. We are indeed living the good life.


YAY! Thank you for this update, I wondered how that was going. Good job!

I find growing stuff to be fulfilling. I'm glad you are enjoying it. I think everything tastes better fresh picked, and I like keeping chemicals out. I have kind of been an organic gardener for a really long time.

There really is something about literally enjoying the fruits, or vegetables, of your labor. Please let us know when you get to taste the tomatoes! One fun summer, I experimented with different Bloody Mary recipes. With fresh tomatoes and herbs, flavors really pop. Just a thought, in case you need new things to do with tomatoes.

Yes, the taste of home grown produce is fabulous. Not only our lettuce tastes wonderful, the rich flavor of herbs which we grow is nothing like store bought. We are using Italian Parsley, chives and Genovese Basil regularly. We have also lots of herb pods which came with the units that we have not planted yet. We plan to make pesto using the basil and will have caprese regularly with home grown tomatoes, basil and pesto. I don't think I can "grow" mozarella so we will have to buy those.

 

[turkel]

We had/have a plan to retire in November 2020. 142 days away. Not sure if we will stick to the plan. We are both essential employees in different fields. To say the last 3 months haven’t brought change to our lives and plans would be ignoring the obvious.

Friends like to say we are 1 bad day away from calling it quits, and honestly I am not sure what the future holds. We are living day to day and will have to see how our cards are dealt.

Our plan was to travel. But we just spent a week at Canyon Villas in Arizona. We got haircuts and ate out at restaurants but found scheduling pool time not to our liking. Who wants a schedule on vacation......not us. So we ended up in our room too much for our liking. Travel my be off the table temporarily.

We wouldn’t mind moving, but I just paid off my house. On another site they had a thread about monthly costs once your home is paid for. What I found was even though Southern California is not a LCOL ( low cost of living) location my monthly costs make it LCOL for us. Plus my kids and immediate family are all with in an hour of our home there.

I would love a home on a lake so maybe someday we will have a second home, hard to beat SC weather though and the costs associated with another home might not be feasible.

Bottom line I just don’t know what the future holds for us.

 

[Brett]

@Big Matt - I have been thinking along these exact lines the last month or so and I am right there with you.

I have spent a lot of time trying to image what an ideal retirement would look like along with where that retirement would be located. I'm not sure I have solid answers yet but one thing that has come into focus is the need to make a final push income wise for 4-6 years to set up our retirement as worry free as we can reasonably hope to accomplish. The excess of unexpectedly unencumbered time has been a jolt - it somewhat felt like a failure in some ways because I felt like I should be doing something but over the past three months, I've found myself doing very little. Probably as much of a function of trying to avoid people during Covid-19, I've avoided some things I thought I would pursue (namely resume golfing after being away from it for almost 25 years).

It has been a very unsettling period of time and with the recent increase in insurgency and stupidity in larger cities around the country, it only served to reaffirm a goal of retiring to a place away from anything that could be construed as hustle and bustle. But to get there, we need at least four more years of debt reduction and retirement savings to get to a point where this is possible.

So many scenes from Field of Dreams keep running through my mind......

There are places in the US that offer free homesteading land to escape the "insurgency" and "stupidity in larger cities"
(it's not Detroit!)

hopefully you can move to a "smart" city

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/realestate/homesteading-free-land-programs.html?searchResultPosition=1

 

[geekette]

This reminds me how most in our neighborhood are always fighting the elements to get their grass and landscaping just right.

totally not me. I like having a yard, but it doesn't all have to be grass. I'd rather the hostas and wood chips than frequent mowing.

 

[PamMo]

"Are people looking for a simpler life now?"

Yes.

The last 3+ months have been another lesson that life can change on a dime. I was diagnosed with a large tumor last year that doctors believed to be advanced ovarian cancer. It turned out to be benign. We celebrated the coming of 2020 on January 1st with great gusto and optimism about what was ahead.. What a funny twist of fate it's been!

 

[geekette]

Yes, the taste of home grown produce is fabulous. Not only our lettuce tastes wonderful, the rich flavor of herbs which we grow is nothing like store bought. We are using Italian Parsley, chives and Genovese Basil regularly. We have also lots of herb pods which came with the units that we have not planted yet. We plan to make pesto using the basil and will have caprese regularly with home grown tomatoes, basil and pesto. I don't think I can "grow" mozarella so we will have to buy those.

Yes, the herbs MATTER!!!

Last summer, I had cherry tomatoes right outside, basil, parsley and cilantro. Some mornings I would take a bowl of cottage cheese out with me and pick and enjoy breakfast.

This year, I am embracing "companion planting", having the herbs growing among and between vegetables. I also have flowers doing this, too. Any natural pest repellent I can get, I'm in favor of. Haven't really dabbled in edible flowers before, but, what the hey. The trick will be remembering which are edible and which are there for other reasons.

 

[bbodb1]

There are places in the US that offer free homesteading land to escape the "insurgency" and "stupidity in larger cities"
(it's not Detroit!)

hopefully you can move to a "smart" city

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/realestate/homesteading-free-land-programs.html?searchResultPosition=1

@Brett - having been to Detroit more times than I care to remember, I know it's not Detroit calling my name. And for what it's worth, it won't be a city I end up in.

Mountains.
Nature.
Solitude.
Heaven.

.....but I do like your suggestion of Alaska - outstanding!

 

[geekette]

I don't think I can "grow" mozarella so we will have to buy those.

If I could grow cheese, I would be twice my size. I like most all dairy, but cheese, it's like the perfect food....

 

[WinniWoman]

@Brett - having been to Detroit more times than I care to remember, I know it's not Detroit calling my name. And for what it's worth, it won't be a city I end up in.

Mountains.
Nature.
Solitude.
Heaven.

.....but I do like your suggestion of Alaska - outstanding!

In my younger years I always wanted to live in Alaska. I even entered a contest to win a house there. (obviously did not win)

 

[geist1223]

We just want to win a Big Lottery and move to Tasmania.

 

[JanT]

CONGRATULATIONS!! That is awesome! You should be very proud of yourself for taking that step to a healthier life and being successful at it. Good for you!

Sixty-nine pounds down, another 12 or so to go. I am super excited to hit my goal and then decide if I need to lose even more.

 

[bbodb1]

When I retired 20+ years ago I had the option of taking a large lump sum or a more than adequate monthly annuity (Pension) with an annual COLA. I chose the monthly payments. I honestly believe this choice has added years to me life. I have only one thing to monitor and that is the financial condition of the AAA rated entity making my Pension payments. I am totally immune from worrying about market gyrations and the ups and downs of an investment portfolio. I know some handle this well but I know myself. I wouldn't have...

George

@bogey21 - George, I recall you have mentioned this before but there was something I wanted to ask you if I might. With respect to your decision to take the monthly payments (and taking into account the statement I bolded from your quote), is it accurate to assume the entity making the pension payments is a different entity than the source of the pension?

It sounds as if you have a situation where the entity which made/provided the pension is now out of the picture and therefore cannot reclaim (or stop paying) your pension. As I think back to many employers who offered pensions throughout their existence (which a good number of people were dependent on) only to have those funds raided by corporate takeovers, your choice looks exceptionally shrewd as long as the AAA entity could not be taken over in some manner.

About a year ago, our financial planner suggested moving some of our retirement income to a guaranteed annuity as part of a strategy to help cover the possibility we may retire before full retirement age and opt to NOT draw SS. As I have watched that annuity grow, I do find it reassuring to know that no matter what finanical choices we make from here on out, there is a guaranteed amount of money we can depend on receiving no matter what.

 

[JanT]

Honestly, I am soooo ready for a simpler life. I've been longing for that for a few years now but other things got in the way. Just when we could accomplish that, COVID-19 hit and now all the national unrest. I'm exhausted from several years of watching over my elderly mother and further exhausted from recent events. I think I've hit a big, brick wall and am trying to figure out how to simplify our lives at a time when it seems impossible to do. Unfortunately, we need to sell our house which isn't looking very promising right now. Hopefully it will sell eventually and we can move on.

We lived in Fiji for 2 years and did just fine without TV which is really the only thing I can say we went without that was a major thing. We found our sources for American foods we liked and wanted. We had a meat market where we got our boneless, skinless chicken breasts, bacon, etc. We bought lettuce from a sweet Indian lady who had a huge crop in her yard, we had a huge mango tree in our back yard as well as banana tree, eggplant bush, etc. Other things we got from the local farmers market. It was a quiet life and I find myself longing for that more and more. Not sure I would choose Fiji to live in again simply because medical care there is iffy at best. But, Aruba looks pretty good and we're considering it more and more. We can get to Florida for medical care if we needed it so it's a real consideration. I just want out of all the craziness here! Each day I wake up and find it harder and harder to deal with it all.

 

[geekette]

As I have watched that annuity grow, I do find it reassuring to know that no matter what finanical choices we make from here on out, there is a guaranteed amount of money we can depend on receiving no matter what.

Because there are few guarantees in life, I have to point out that most annuities are only as good as the financial institution offering them. I would be happily corrected if there is a PBGC'ish entity that takes over if the original goes blukey. Or there is some kind of reinsurance that puts annuitants high up in the claim chain.

 

[geekette]

Honestly, I am soooo ready for a simpler life. I've been longing for that for a few years now but other things got in the way. Just when we could accomplish that, COVID-19 hit and now all the national unrest. I'm exhausted from several years of watching over my elderly mother and further exhausted from recent events. I think I've hit a big, brick wall and am trying to figure out how to simplify our lives at a time when it seems impossible to do. Unfortunately, we need to sell our house which isn't looking very promising right now. Hopefully it will sell eventually and we can move on.

We lived in Fiji for 2 years and did just fine without TV which is really the only thing I can say we went without that was a major thing. We found our sources for American foods we liked and wanted. We had a meat market where we got our boneless, skinless chicken breasts, bacon, etc. We bought lettuce from a sweet Indian lady who had a huge crop in her yard, we had a huge mango tree in our back yard as well as banana tree, eggplant bush, etc. Other things we got from the local farmers market. It was a quiet life and I find myself longing for that more and more. Not sure I would choose Fiji to live in again simply because medical care there is iffy at best. But, Aruba looks pretty good and we're considering it more and more. We can get to Florida for medical care if we needed it so it's a real consideration. I just want out of all the craziness here! Each day I wake up and find it harder and harder to deal with it all.

I would say, today, Breathe.

Aruba sounds lovely to me. I could imagine wind surfing more days than not. I am envious of your Fiji time, I haven't made it there quite yet.

The world is big, there is the exact right place for you and you'll know it when you find it. The more you churn through your choices, and thumbs downs, the closer you are to Knowing where you're going. Since I know next to zero about Aruba, I take it there are emergency medical services that would work for you? Florida, sure, but not quickly.

I've been to Cabo enough times to consider it, probably the sleepy sister city with vibrant arts and culture. USD goes far, and I could get onboard with afternoon siesta. I will likely keep it simple and stay in the states.

 

[mentalbreak]

Because there are few guarantees in life, I have to point out that most annuities are only as good as the financial institution offering them. I would be happily corrected if there is a PBGC'ish entity that takes over if the original goes blukey. Or there is some kind of reinsurance that puts annuitants high up in the claim chain.

here is your happy correction:

State Guaranty Associations: Protection for Annuity Owners

Learn about state guaranty associations. These groups regulate annuities and protect them up to $250,000 or more depending on the state where you live.

www.annuity.org

 

[WinniWoman]

Honestly, I am soooo ready for a simpler life. I've been longing for that for a few years now but other things got in the way. Just when we could accomplish that, COVID-19 hit and now all the national unrest. I'm exhausted from several years of watching over my elderly mother and further exhausted from recent events. I think I've hit a big, brick wall and am trying to figure out how to simplify our lives at a time when it seems impossible to do. Unfortunately, we need to sell our house which isn't looking very promising right now. Hopefully it will sell eventually and we can move on.

We lived in Fiji for 2 years and did just fine without TV which is really the only thing I can say we went without that was a major thing. We found our sources for American foods we liked and wanted. We had a meat market where we got our boneless, skinless chicken breasts, bacon, etc. We bought lettuce from a sweet Indian lady who had a huge crop in her yard, we had a huge mango tree in our back yard as well as banana tree, eggplant bush, etc. Other things we got from the local farmers market. It was a quiet life and I find myself longing for that more and more. Not sure I would choose Fiji to live in again simply because medical care there is iffy at best. But, Aruba looks pretty good and we're considering it more and more. We can get to Florida for medical care if we needed it so it's a real consideration. I just want out of all the craziness here! Each day I wake up and find it harder and harder to deal with it all.

So sorry you are having such a difficult time. Since you have gone through such much in recent years you need to "come down" on many levels.

Your house will sell eventually, but you will need a lot of energy to go through the whole process, so take care of yourself so you will be healthy and able to deal with it. In the meantime, consider all the possibilities for where you want to spend the rest of your life, but always remember- "wherever you go, there you are."

 

[klpca]

We have been out of step with a lot of our peer group for years. We live a fairly simple lifestyle. We aren't beholden to possessions. We still work but it no longer consumes us. I believe that it has it's roots in about 2008 when we were looking at real estate, feeling that we had outgrown our home. After a few weeks of looking and not finding anything that truly worked for us we decided to take a harder look at our current home - mostly because of tax consequences (CA prop 13/taxable sale situation). We had an empty garage and empty rooms when we moved in but now it was bursting at the seams. So we decided to pare our possessions down to a manageable level. Closets were emptied, dressers were eliminated, closet organizers were installed. A lot of items in the garage were donated. I was surprised at how emotionally freeing it was to have fewer possessions. It started a cycle of paring down that continues to this day. Friends know that my mantra is "don't let your possessions own you. You own *them*". We don't buy a lot of "things", so a lot of what we are still getting rid of didn't make the original cut but are now useless to us, some were given to us (omg - just stop with stuff!!) - I am amazed at how quickly stuff collects in our life and starts to take over. We only buy what we need and what we can use immediately. Eliminating the mess in your physical life has lessons for eliminating the mess in your mental life as well. People who take away energy instead of adding to it - don't give them a lot of space in your life. People who are treasures - put them front and center and give them the attention that they deserve.

This year has forced us to sit and enjoy instead of travel and enjoy. For me that has been a difficult transition. I can always find a chore to do around the house -getting rid of stuff - but we have been able to do it a few times. I am just not good at relaxing at home but it looks like 2020 is going to keep trying to teach me. My husband can turn off the "project" vibe instantly. I was an almost manic volunteer in various organizations from about 1987 until 2011, but I quit that and haven't looked back. Volunteering took away a lot of evenings after work and full weeks during the summers. Probably a lifetime worth of volunteering. I was planning on working with the international staff for Girl Scout camps this summer but...2020, lol. That will have to wait I guess.

In 2016 my husband was diagnosed with cancer (treatment looks good as so far so good on recurrence, although July is the semi annual testing month so there's always that niggling worry that I try to ignore). 2017 brought a heart attack for him - probably helped along by some of the cancer treatment. There's nothing like a good health scare to help bring things into focus. Even travel seemed trivial, and even though we have enjoyed our travels PC (post-cancer) it's not the carefree experience that it was before. For awhile I didn't want to go anywhere but my husband did so we took some great trips. Surprisingly the cancer diagnosis made work seem better - he no longer works night and day, no longer stresses himself out, but appreciates the structure that it gives him plus it is intellectually consuming and of course there's the social aspect of working in an office. He has decided to work at least until full retirement age. If he's happy then so am I. And if he's working then I may as well work too.

Our life now is about as simple as it can be but I am always looking to make changes to simplify more. It's a matter of asking yourself if this thing/person/ activity adds value to my life or if it adds stress. And if it's the latter, it has to go.

 

[bogey21]

Is it accurate to assume the entity making the pension payments is a different entity than the source of the pension?....It sounds as if you have a situation where the entity which made/provided the pension is now out of the picture and therefore cannot reclaim (or stop paying) your pension. .

The answer is pretty much yes. My Pension comes from a Multi-Employer Pension Plan whose owners are all Financial Institutions. Once a year the Plan would bill my Bank for the amount of money necessary to ensure that their obligation to its employees was fully funded. The only risk I had as an employee is that my Bank would fail and stop funding the Plan before I reached Retirement age. If they had, all benefits earned prior to the date of the failure would have been frozen but safe. Fortunately my Employer did not fail and my full benefits are fully funded. The risk I refer to, although minimal to non-existent, is mis-management or fraud on the part of the Multi-Employer Plan itself so I check their Annual Reports carefully...

George

 

[stmartinfan]

Since we're in retirement mode, we're already living a pretty simple life But we had always tried to keep things manageable especially given our demanding jobs. In our area, it's the "thing" to have a cabin (usually really a second home) at a lake, along with the accompanying boat(s) and other toys. We could have afforded that, but knew we didn't want to sign on for the weekend driving back and forth, maintaining two yards and homes, etc., so decided we'd keep things simpler and just enjoy lots of beach vacations and other trips instead. We do have a home that looks out on a large wetlands area, so sitting on our deck feels like we're in the country. For us, where we want to be is linked closely to where our kids are - especially now that there's a granddaughter and they are in a nearby suburb. We'll probably downsize to one level living sometime in the next 5 years, but likely in the same general area.

 

[JanT]

WinniWoman,

Of course I recognize that "wherever you go, there you are." I don't expect moving or traveling to solve my problems. I honestly don't have any problems compared to so many and I'm grateful for that. But, what I do expect to find in it is some peace of mind that's been lacking in my life for about the past 7 years. I want the freedom to move around and do what I want to do - that will be very freeing for me and bring a lot of peace of mind.

I am taking care of myself through all of this recent hubbub in the world. I've actually been focusing on dieting and exercise and am down about 20 pounds. I am feeling better physically and mentally from that alone. But I am feeling very discouraged and weighed down the last several days over what is happening in the U.S. specifically. I'm not even going to go into that because inevitably topics like that become a hotbed of contention here on TUG and honestly, I'm sick of seeing that, too. I hadn't had the opportunity to spend much time on TUG until the pandemic hit but once it did I was able to come here often and at first it was uplifting. Now, many threads have just turned into arguing, fighting, and slinging crap because a few parties don't agree. I come here to TUG to find topics that uplift me - travel, humor, etc. Even those end up in contentious discussions sometimes. If it continues I'm going to just step away because I don't want another thing in my life that upsets me.

In terms of eventually moving, our house has been staged minimally for showings. We have two storage units full of stuff because we've wanted our home to look as much like a model home as possible. So, all the hard work (except for my husband's garage) is pretty much done. There won't be this huge flux of work to do if we should get it sold. It may or may not get sold and if it doesn't we've already talked about some other ideas that will enable us to do more traveling once we feel comfortable doing that.

Thank you, WW for taking time to respond. I appreciate your thoughts tremendously!

So sorry you are having such a difficult time. Since you have gone through such much in recent years you need to "come down" on many levels.

Your house will sell eventually, but you will need a lot of energy to go through the whole process, so take care of yourself so you will be healthy and able to deal with it. In the meantime, consider all the possibilities for where you want to spend the rest of your life, but always remember- "wherever you go, there you are."

 

[WinniWoman]

Deleted

 

[WinniWoman]

WinniWoman,

Of course I recognize that "wherever you go, there you are." I don't expect moving or traveling to solve my problems. I honestly don't have any problems compared to so many and I'm grateful for that. But, what I do expect to find in it is some peace of mind that's been lacking in my life for about the past 7 years. I want the freedom to move around and do what I want to do - that will be very freeing for me and bring a lot of peace of mind.

I am taking care of myself through all of this recent hubbub in the world. I've actually been focusing on dieting and exercise and am down about 20 pounds. I am feeling better physically and mentally from that alone. But I am feeling very discouraged and weighed down the last several days over what is happening in the U.S. specifically. I'm not even going to go into that because inevitably topics like that become a hotbed of contention here on TUG and honestly, I'm sick of seeing that, too. I hadn't had the opportunity to spend much time on TUG until the pandemic hit but once it did I was able to come here often and at first it was uplifting. Now, many threads have just turned into arguing, fighting, and slinging crap because a few parties don't agree. I come here to TUG to find topics that uplift me - travel, humor, etc. Even those end up in contentious discussions sometimes. If it continues I'm going to just step away because I don't want another thing in my life that upsets me.

In terms of eventually moving, our house has been staged minimally for showings. We have two storage units full of stuff because we've wanted our home to look as much like a model home as possible. So, all the hard work (except for my husband's garage) is pretty much done. There won't be this huge flux of work to do if we should get it sold. It may or may not get sold and if it doesn't we've already talked about some other ideas that will enable us to do more traveling once we feel comfortable doing that.

Thank you, WW for taking time to respond. I appreciate your thoughts tremendously!

I think that is great you’ve been able to lose weight through everything!! Bravo! I am just the opposite and I do need to lose weight but just don’t seem to have the will these past few years. I don’t even weigh myself anymore. Too depressing. My way of coping with stress I guess. Plus eating is something enjoyable. Not to mention the wine and Margaritas! Lol!

I totally get the state you are in with this darn virus and the situation in our country. I’m not even going the political route here either but I am glad to be in a place that aligns somewhat with our persuasion and therefore a lot of like minded folks around us. That was important to us when we chose a place to live.

Honestly after the initial shock of having to be in lockdown for several weeks I became more and more comfortable going out and about, but then we don’t live in an urban area. The weather became tolerable as spring kicked in and we immediately joined a small group of people to walk with every morning to the lake and back. No masks. And as time went on no distancing. We accepted invitations To ride on our neighbors pontoon boat several times with this group. Shoulder to shoulder. We played cards on a neighbor’s patio one evening. It’s since been moved indoors but we have not gone as of yet just because we haven’t felt like it, not because we are afraid to. Our Community pool is open and I will go. I have been to the lake beach a few times already. I go to the stores I want to. Yeah- I do hate wearing the masks as I get overheated. I only wear them in buildings. Not outside. Recently a neighbor gave me a hug and then we realized we weren’t“ supposed to” hug. Lol! I am not worried about it. I visited a friend and used her bathroom, though we did stay outside. She’s visiting me this week and wants to see my house. Have no issues with it. She’s 70. Then we are going it to lunch.

People here- their families come up from Massachusetts (a hot bed for the virus) and stay with them- grandchildren and all. They also visit down there.

I told our son we are done with this not having him here and he is free to visit us whenever he wants. I’m going to hug him when I do see him, too. Last night I told my brother-in-law in Delaware he is free to visit and stay with us.

I am going to our timeshare resort next weekend as I won 2 free nights there. Pools and gym are open and using them. I have done a little take out and also outside dining. I will do inside dining when it opens up.

I wear a mask indoors. I wash my hands after being out. I will wipe down my car steering wheel and door knobs. And that’s it. I don’t wipe down groceries or boxes that are delivered or anything like that. I have had contractors in my house to fix some things and I don’t worry about it. I am not living in fear.

We have also kept busy with fixing the house up and it helps that we have always been home bodies.

And now hubby’s sportsman’s club has finally opened up and he is so very happy to finally be able to go each week.

Unfortunately Right now we do have to live in this semi restricted state as governed by the powers that be. There are some things that we just can’t do because the businesses have been restricted. So it is unnerving in that we have to either tolerate them the way they are structured right nice or avoid them altogether.
I do hate seeing everyone having to wear masks. And all of us havIng to follow these protocols everywhere we go. Very disturbing.

But the one place that is freeing is the outdoors and nature. That does it for me.

I hope you can soon find that freedom and peace you are seeking.

Last edited: A moment ago

Mary Ann

"Life is either a daring adventure, or it's nothing" - Helen Keller