Any suggestions on degoogled smart phones?

[Carolinian]

I am ready for a new smart phone, and had been looking at the Freedom Phone, which runs the Clear operating system and is essentially an Android minus anything and everything Google. Unfortunately, it is not compatable with my carrier, Pure Talk, so I have expanded my search for a privacy and free speech oriented phone. Has anyone had any experience with any of them? I have looked at the Clear Phones, which also run the Clear os, but they seem pricey.

There appear to be several operating systems built off of the bare bones of Android with all or most of the Google related code replaced. One that seems to get good reviews is the e/ Foundation phones, a French non-profit that produces both replacement operating systems for other phones as well as a few brand new phones with their e/ operating system. Two of those are available in the US and are listed as working on Pure Talk. The e/ Foundation is geared to privacy and free speech, and sold smart phones in Europe for several years before expanding to the US.

There are also sellers on eBay with a wide variety of degoogled smart phones, but most are pre-owned and I would rather have a new one. Ironically, one of the alternative operating systems is designed to work on Google's own house brand, Pixel phones. I found one small company that degoogles only new Pixel brand smart phones.

 

[MrockStar]

Windows phone and Nokia where options. You could go back a step to a flip phone.

 

[Carolinian]

Windows phone and Nokia where options. You could go back a step to a flip phone.

Flip phones had a lot of advantages, such as the easier to carry size and the ability to answer with one hand (useful while driving) but what I am looking for is the best bet in a degoogled smart phone due to getting used to some of the smart phone features. The Freedom Phone sounded great until I found it was not compatable with my carrier's system. It is sold by an American company but the Europeans have been concerned about Google's intrusiveness longer than Americans and the e/Foundation's phones look appealing. Here is an article on degoogled smart phones:

I tried a “de-Googled” Android phone for a week

iodéOS offers you a “de-Googled” Android alternative for a more private smartphone experience. Should you switch?

www.laptopmag.com

 

[Passepartout]

Why not go for the obvious and go for an iPhone? Nothin' Googly there.

 

[Carolinian]

Iphones also have privacy issues, although not nearly as bad as Androids.

I foujd a wide selection of deGoogled smart phones on eBay. I also found a small company in California that degoogles a wide variety of Pixel phones (ironically made by Google, but they say they are the easiest to degoogle), a French non-profit e/ Foundation that provides the tech to degoogle your own phone and also has an affiliate that offers a few degoogled phones (two of which work with US carriers), a company in Hong Kong that degoogles phones, and a number of others. I ended up buying one on eBay.

Most of them have non-Google substitutes for things like GPS, maps, etc. that do not sell your data, as well as non-Google app stores.

 

[emeryjre]

Hope it has a A grade battery from a quality manufacturer.

The story below talks about Lithium Battery Grades. Usually there is no safety issues with small A grade vs B grade or C grade batteries. The grading process relates to meeting rated capacity for charging and discharging. But I still want an A Grade battery in my electronic items.

Lithium-ion cells - A grade vs B grade • EVreporter

 

[Carolinian]

Hope it has a A grade battery from a quality manufacturer.

The story below talks about Lithium Battery Grades. Usually there is no safety issues with small A grade vs B grade or C grade batteries. The grading process relates to meeting rated capacity for charging and discharging. But I still want an A Grade battery in my electronic items.

Lithium-ion cells - A grade vs B grade • EVreporter

I bought a degoogled name brand, but did not look specifically at the battery. In researching, I noticed that of the two degoogled phones offered by e/ Foundation in France, one had a removal battery and the other a non-removable battery, but I chose not to wait on delivery from Europe as I am sitting in NC at the moment.

This article offers a good explanation of why degoogled or ungoogled phones are becoming more popular and some of the issues involved:

deGoogled Android Explained (Why it's Better) - IronCabin

Learn to increase privacy, while still having the convenience of owning a smartphone. A deGoogled phone is a great option.

ironcabin.co

 

[emeryjre]

I am very familiar with networks, operating systems on computers, iphones, android devices. I am very familiar with the privacy issues regarding phone tracking. I do not need to read about the fear that Sean and his friends spread to convince people to buy degoogled devices.

Unless you are able to keep track of your own network traffic each time you download an app from some app store, you have no idea what is happening to your information. Hacked apps are a problem, especially with Android. Open source apps can be hacked very effectively, and unless someone is monitoring the traffic generated by the app, you have no idea who to trust. Maybe someone will look and tell you about an app, but you have no idea.

I was mentioning battery safety in regards to your phone purchase. You did not mention what you had purchased. Since you have a fear of lithium batteries exploding around you, I was mentioning to check the battery in your new phone and make sure it is of high quality and from a known manufacturer.

If I was choosing a degoogled phone, I would have gone with the Google Pixel. The pixel CPU is optimized to work with Android, which is what you are using when you use an open source operating system. It would also have all top quality parts and a warranty. Perhaps that is what you chose.

 

[ScoopKona]

I do not need to read about the fear that Sean and his friends spread to convince people to buy degoogled devices.

I made a tin-foil pouch for my phone. And amazing -- no ads, no spam, no robocalls, no "hot models looking for you." It's the same on my PC. I've been online since ARPAnet without any issues. I credit my tin-foil pouches and not sensible network protocols.

 

[emeryjre]

I have several old phones that I have spoofed my location on. If the government were to look for me, (why in God's name they would care) they will see that I am in several locations at once.
Seriously, the cell phone network keeps track of my phone by an internal ID that is hardwired into the phone. Then the sim card ties to the internal ID. Now if I am the NSA or other Marvel comic book character, I can hide that information from the Cell Phone provider. Other wise the phone is tracked by the cell phone network. Google, Apple and other services tie into this system for their own purpose. Simply using a degoogled phone does not hide the phone from a variety of other location services. Just google. And all google wants to do is send me adds.
Pure Talk runs on the AT&T network. Nothing hides from them. What is interesting is that Pure Talk obfuscates this information. Adds to the drama and sense of being secretive.

 

[Carolinian]

I have several old phones that I have spoofed my location on. If the government were to look for me, (why in God's name they would care) they will see that I am in several locations at once.
Seriously, the cell phone network keeps track of my phone by an internal ID that is hardwired into the phone. Then the sim card ties to the internal ID. Now if I am the NSA or other Marvel comic book character, I can hide that information from the Cell Phone provider. Other wise the phone is tracked by the cell phone network. Google, Apple and other services tie into this system for their own purpose. Simply using a degoogled phone does not hide the phone from a variety of other location services. Just google. And all google wants to do is send me adds.
Pure Talk runs on the AT&T network. Nothing hides from them. What is interesting is that Pure Talk obfuscates this information. Adds to the drama and sense of being secretive.

All of the resellers run on one of the big networks. The secret is the resellers are CHEAPER, but maybe some people just want to pay more money for a "name brand" carrier.

My research indicated that the Pixel phones were the easiest to degoogle, so I bought a degoogled Pixel4a with 5G capability.

I don't care for companies storing my data and Google is among the worst for that. I also do not care for their censorship and their biased search engine. I like privacy and I like free speech and Google is not good on either count.

When I was working fulltime in eastern Europe, one of my acquaintances had served as the number two guy in the Secret Police / Security Services after the fall of communism and had been appointed to that position to clean out all the old communist influences, but had since retired. He was making a lot more money as a security consultant. One evening on my second stint in country, I had gone over to his apartment for dinner with he and his wife, and as we were having pre-dinner drinks, my phone rang. On my first stint, I was issued a flip phone but the second time around it was a smart phone. He looked at it kind of funny, and after the call finished, he said "Do you know what I carry?" and pulled out a flip phone, adding "I know professionally what can be done with those" pointing to my smart phone, "and while some things can be done with these, it is a whole lot less." If I were scared of government tracking, I would probably have taken his advice and stuck with a flip phone. I actually much prefer the size of a flip phone and I like that they can be answered with one hand, but I also like some of the conveniences of the smart phones.

Another service I looked at was ClearPhone, which uses the ClearOS (same as FreedomPhone) and says it runs on its own private network that does not record your data. All of that sounded good but I had doubts, living in a rural area, about possible holes in their private network.

ClearCellular

www.clearcellular.org

 

[emeryjre]

All of the resellers run on one of the big networks. The secret is the resellers are CHEAPER, but maybe some people just want to pay more money for a "name brand" carrier.

My research indicated that the Pixel phones were the easiest to degoogle, so I bought a degoogled Pixel4a with 5G capability.

I don't care for companies storing my data and Google is among the worst for that. I also do not care for their censorship and their biased search engine. I like privacy and I like free speech and Google is not good on either count.

When I was working fulltime in eastern Europe, one of my acquaintances had served as the number two guy in the Secret Police / Security Services after the fall of communism and had been appointed to that position to clean out all the old communist influences, but had since retired. He was making a lot more money as a security consultant. One evening on my second stint in country, I had gone over to his apartment for dinner with he and his wife, and as we were having pre-dinner drinks, my phone rang. On my first stint, I was issued a flip phone but the second time around it was a smart phone. He looked at it kind of funny, and after the call finished, he said "Do you know what I carry?" and pulled out a flip phone, adding "I know professionally what can be done with those" pointing to my smart phone, "and while some things can be done with these, it is a whole lot less." If I were scared of government tracking, I would probably have taken his advice and stuck with a flip phone. I actually much prefer the size of a flip phone and I like that they can be answered with one hand, but I also like some of the conveniences of the smart phones.

OK, I never challenged you on any of that. You are welcome to use a degoogled phone. Glad you picked a pixel phone. That would have been my choice.

Just be aware, using any app has certain risks. Unless you are capable of monitoring the network traffic change when installing an app, you are not really sure the app is not taking information from your phone and transmitting it to another location for whatever reason.

The google store is just a collection of apps meeting certain standards established by google. The apps are tested and analyzed by the google team to ensure the apps are not transmitting data unbeknownst to the app user. Even with a high quality team, apps slip through and steal people's data. Apps in the "wild" are even more prone to do this.

There are plenty of stories about tracked cell phones getting people on both sides killed in Ukraine. Not sure if using VOIP on the "Musk" wifi satellite system would keep you untracked. I cannot find any info on that. It is something I sure people "in the know" could answer

I am well aware of tracking and privacy issues. Having a degoogled phone on the Pure Talk network, layered on the AT&T network will not keep you from being tracked. It will keep your data from Google, (maybe). I certainly would not store any financial information on such a phone, nor would I transact anything I wanted to keep really private.

 

[Carolinian]

I certainly would not store any financial information on such a phone, nor would I transact anything I wanted to keep really private.

Protecting financial data has always been part of my effort to protect privacy. I have always made a habit of NEVER storing credit card info on anyone's website. When I get the invitation to store credit card info, I decline. Any business' data can be hacked and I would rather not have it sitting there on someone else's server. I also never pay by check online.

I had an experience with Skype that taught me to always back credit card info out of their system. They did not ask if they could keep it on file, they just did. I was in a meeting at a resort in eastern Europe we often used for meetings with our local partners and on a break checked my email. One of the things I noticed was an email from Skype about receiving a payment for more Skype credit. I did not think anything of it at the time, as my wife and I had separate Skype accounts, and she used my credit card to buy Skype credit on her account. She was back in the States at the time. Later that afternoon, when I checked my email again, I had two pages of notices of payments to Skype, so I knew that was NOT my wife doing it. Some of the emails from Skype were in Arabic. I called Skype, and it took a while to find the right person to talk to, and got that shut off, but was told I would have to pay for the ones already posted. They also told me that the breach had not reached getting my credit card number and related info but it allowed someone to access my payment channel within Skype to pay on Skype accounts. After talking to my credit card issuer, I backed them down on trying to charge me for any of the fraud.

I called back to my wife to tell her what had happened, and she had no idea how it could have happened. She had no need for more Skype credit right then and had done nothing with her Skype account. A few days later, she called me with what had happened. She got an email from a friend of hers who had been in an internet cafe in Istanbul and used Skype. It was the only time she had used it during that period so she figured that must have been when someone got into her Skype account somehow and sent a Skype message to everyone on her contact list saying something to the effect of "Hey, look at these pictures". When someone clicked on the picture link, the hacker got into their Skype account and could make charges and also messaged everyone on that person's contact list.

I figured out how to back my credit card details out of Skype's system and do that now every time I make a payment to them. That experience is one of the reasons I detest entities storing my data without my express knowledge and permission.

 

[davidvel]

Protecting financial data has always been part of my effort to protect privacy. I have always made a habit of NEVER storing credit card info on anyone's website. When I get the invitation to store credit card info, I decline. Any business' data can be hacked and I would rather not have it sitting there on someone else's server. I also never pay by check online.

I had an experience with Skype that taught me to always back credit card info out of their system. They did not ask if they could keep it on file, they just did. I was in a meeting at a resort in eastern Europe we often used for meetings with our local partners and on a break checked my email. One of the things I noticed was an email from Skype about receiving a payment for more Skype credit. I did not think anything of it at the time, as my wife and I had separate Skype accounts, and she used my credit card to buy Skype credit on her account. She was back in the States at the time. Later that afternoon, when I checked my email again, I had two pages of notices of payments to Skype, so I knew that was NOT my wife doing it. Some of the emails from Skype were in Arabic. I called Skype, and it took a while to find the right person to talk to, and got that shut off, but was told I would have to pay for the ones already posted. They also told me that the breach had not reached getting my credit card number and related info but it allowed someone to access my payment channel within Skype to pay on Skype accounts. After talking to my credit card issuer, I backed them down on trying to charge me for any of the fraud.

I called back to my wife to tell her what had happened, and she had no idea how it could have happened. She had no need for more Skype credit right then and had done nothing with her Skype account. A few days later, she called me with what had happened. She got an email from a friend of hers who had been in an internet cafe in Istanbul and used Skype. It was the only time she had used it during that period so she figured that must have been when someone got into her Skype account somehow and sent a Skype message to everyone on her contact list saying something to the effect of "Hey, look at these pictures". When someone clicked on the picture link, the hacker got into their Skype account and could make charges and also messaged everyone on that person's contact list.

I figured out how to back my credit card details out of Skype's system and do that now every time I make a payment to them. That experience is one of the reasons I detest entities storing my data without my express knowledge and permission.

You said you enjoy "smart phone" features. Which features do you use your phone with, which apps, where do you get them?

 

[Brett]

I made a tin-foil pouch for my phone. And amazing -- no ads, no spam, no robocalls, no "hot models looking for you." It's the same on my PC. I've been online since ARPAnet without any issues. I credit my tin-foil pouches and not sensible network protocols.

remember to keep the tin foil on your head

 

[Carolinian]

You said you enjoy "smart phone" features. Which features do you use your phone with, which apps, where do you get them?

I like to have emergency internet access when my laptop is not handy, although almost all of my internet use is by laptop with its much larger screen and much better keyboard.

Although I am not much of a texter, the text setup with a smart phone is much better than with a flip phone for those instances I need to send a text.

I like the smartphone setup for my contact list.

I have never imported an app onto my phone, and I am very selective about what I download on my computer.

I find it creepy that some entity wants to record everywhere one goes and save that data, or to save other data. Those whose business does not turn on selling other people's data is less likely to maintain it for long if they do at all. Selling other people's data is a big part of the business model of Google, as well as Facebook. It is intrusive, and if I had my way there would be legislation requiring very specific permission required for doing that, not something buried in lengthy t&c which few people read. Privacy is important and we are getting away from it too much in our society.

There can also be problems arising from entities maintaining this data. I posted on another site an article about someone in Georgia who had to spend a lot of money on legal counsel to avoid being prosecuted for something he did not do as a result of smart phone tracking. There was a burglary and the police asked for cell phone data of people in the area at the time. This guy rode his bike regularly in the area for exercise and had passed the house that was burglarized several times during the relevant period as it was on one of his regular riding routes. He found himself the chief suspect on nothing other than smart phone tracking. Or I have a neighbor who lives around the corner who went to the rally in DC on January 6, but as she is elderly and has health problems was not physically up to walking to the Capitol so she didn't, returning to her hotel instead. To this day she is terrified that the FBI is going to come pick her up because her cell phone data says she was at that rally, and she and her husband are even afraid to put up campaign signs like they used to. Smart phone data putting people at the wrong place, or even too close to it, at the wrong time can impact lives.

 

[emeryjre]

A degoogeled phone will not prevent you from being tracked. You need to do a bunch more research about cell phones and tracking. If you do not want to be tracked, buy a smart burner for cash.

 

[davidvel]

I like to have emergency internet access when my laptop is not handy, although almost all of my internet use is by laptop with its much larger screen and much better keyboard.

Although I am not much of a texter, the text setup with a smart phone is much better than with a flip phone for those instances I need to send a text.

I like the smartphone setup for my contact list.

I have never imported an app onto my phone, and I am very selective about what I download on my computer.

I find it creepy that some entity wants to record everywhere one goes and save that data, or to save other data. Those whose business does not turn on selling other people's data is less likely to maintain it for long if they do at all. Selling other people's data is a big part of the business model of Google, as well as Facebook. It is intrusive, and if I had my way there would be legislation requiring very specific permission required for doing that, not something buried in lengthy t&c which few people read. Privacy is important and we are getting away from it too much in our society.

There can also be problems arising from entities maintaining this data. I posted on another site an article about someone in Georgia who had to spend a lot of money on legal counsel to avoid being prosecuted for something he did not do as a result of smart phone tracking. There was a burglary and the police asked for cell phone data of people in the area at the time. This guy rode his bike regularly in the area for exercise and had passed the house that was burglarized several times during the relevant period as it was on one of his regular riding routes. He found himself the chief suspect on nothing other than smart phone tracking. Or I have a neighbor who lives around the corner who went to the rally in DC on January 6, but as she is elderly and has health problems was not physically up to walking to the Capitol so she didn't, returning to her hotel instead. To this day she is terrified that the FBI is going to come pick her up because her cell phone data says she was at that rally, and she and her husband are even afraid to put up campaign signs like they used to. Smart phone data putting people at the wrong place, or even too close to it, at the wrong time can impact lives.

OK, enjoy all that.

P.S. Your non-Google phone is tracking your every move just like the guy in Georgia, so not really a great example of what you are avoiding. .

 

[Carolinian]

A degoogeled phone will not prevent you from being tracked. You need to do a bunch more research about cell phones and tracking. If you do not want to be tracked, buy a smart burner for cash.

It will certainly keep the most prolific data storer on earth from acquiring and storing one's data. It will keep the major invader of peoples' privacy from invading ones privacy. Is it foolproof on everyone who might store your data? No, but it stops the very worst offender.

What we really need are privacy laws that prevent any company from storing someone's data without very specidic and knowing approval by the person whose data is subject to storage. Violations of that should have very severe penalties. Storing credit card data without explicit permission is probably the worst, and I have personally been a victim of that.

 

[emeryjre]

Your stories were about phone tracking. I am no fan of Google. You imply the using a degoogled phone will prevent you from being tracked. I want everybody to understand that having a degoogled phone will not prevent you from being tracked. I am not sure you understand the difference between phone tracking and Google's role in collecting information.

 

[MrockStar]

One way to not be tracked on your cell phone is to find one with a removable battery and simply remove the battery when not using it, and you wont be tracked.

 

[MrockStar]

.

 

[Passepartout]

As suggested up thread. Just buy a cheap burner smartphone at Walmart. Recognize it for what it is and after you think it's been compromised, crush it and get another one.

 

[davidvel]

Ha

One way to not be tracked on your cell phone is to find one with a removable battery and simply remove the battery when not using it, and you wont be tracked.

Hard to receive calls and texts that way.

 

[emeryjre]

Here is the story of a Georgia Man

I like to have emergency internet access when my laptop is not handy, although almost all of my internet use is by laptop with its much larger screen and much better keyboard.

Although I am not much of a texter, the text setup with a smart phone is much better than with a flip phone for those instances I need to send a text.

I like the smartphone setup for my contact list.

I have never imported an app onto my phone, and I am very selective about what I download on my computer.

I find it creepy that some entity wants to record everywhere one goes and save that data, or to save other data. Those whose business does not turn on selling other people's data is less likely to maintain it for long if they do at all. Selling other people's data is a big part of the business model of Google, as well as Facebook. It is intrusive, and if I had my way there would be legislation requiring very specific permission required for doing that, not something buried in lengthy t&c which few people read. Privacy is important and we are getting away from it too much in our society.

There can also be problems arising from entities maintaining this data. I posted on another site an article about someone in Georgia who had to spend a lot of money on legal counsel to avoid being prosecuted for something he did not do as a result of smart phone tracking. There was a burglary and the police asked for cell phone data of people in the area at the time. This guy rode his bike regularly in the area for exercise and had passed the house that was burglarized several times during the relevant period as it was on one of his regular riding routes. He found himself the chief suspect on nothing other than smart phone tracking. Or I have a neighbor who lives around the corner who went to the rally in DC on January 6, but as she is elderly and has health problems was not physically up to walking to the Capitol so she didn't, returning to her hotel instead. To this day she is terrified that the FBI is going to come pick her up because her cell phone data says she was at that rally, and she and her husband are even afraid to put up campaign signs like they used to. Smart phone data putting people at the wrong place, or even too close to it, at the wrong time can impact lives.

I think this is the story about the person in Georgia and the use of cell phone tracking. It would appear the police used a technique utilizing cell phone tracking to try to find a person of interest in a theft from a residential property. There were no suspects in the case, so police obtained a warrant to obtain data from Google about cell phones in the area. This is just one technique to try and find people in the area. They will also look at parked cars, if applicable and run license plates, etc., etc. Anything to possibly find some tie to a person in the area.

Using a search engine such as duckduckgo to search for similar uses of blanket warrants requesting this information in the cases of criminal activity, a person will find success stories in finding the perpetrator using these examinations of cell phone data.

The use of this technique, the arguments for and against, the court reviews all the way to SCOTUS go way beyond this quick summary and this story. One thing of note. Google is just one aggregator of cell phone tracking information. Google is probably the best known, but there a many more. Some will sell data without a warrant required.

One thing for sure, sophisticated criminals leave their cell phones at home when heading out to do a crime.

Google tracked his bike ride past a burglarized home. That made him a suspect. (nbcnews.com)