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An ER doctor loses custody of daughter because of coronavirus fears

WVBaker

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This was on our news tonight as she's an ER doctor in Miami. We live in Broward County so our TV stations are out of Miami. For those of you who may not be aware our area is being hit hard with COVID-19. Our nightly news here for weeks now has featured medical personnel talking about missing being able to be with their children and families but their priority is keeping them safe. Every night on the news we see some of those medical personnel talking about how they stay in touch with their kids and families via phone calls, video calls, Skype or conversations standing outside a window or door. I've seen the posts on Facebook and segments on the news showing medical personnel sleeping in tents in their own garages to protect their families.

Given what she does and where, her response isn't rational. Both my husband and I are saying what is wrong with her! If either my husband or I were employed in the medical field, especially in a high risk area or where we were coming in contact with people who were potentially infected, we would be doing the utmost to protect our son and each other even if we were exes. How awful would it be if she brought it home to her daughter and her daughter gave it to her ex. Not only could her daughter be left an orphan but also there is also the psychological impact on that child to consider. Neither is something no parent who loves their child would want for them.

Is it possible the mother/doctor will have to pay child support to her ex that she doesn't want to have to pay? Miami can be an expensive place to live. Is she concerned that her daughter will become too attached to living with one parent full time? Is her ex remarried and has a wife and other even younger children he may be rightfully worried about and is that an issue for her? Is her whole life built around her work and her daughter and she isn't dealing well with losing one of the two foundations of her life?

Jan M, both you and your husband are saying what is wrong with her, and I say what's wrong with the courts!

After all she's been through and continues to be a part of, you both question this Mother's love for her child?

Somehow, you think paying "child support" has a role in her frustration. I for one, don't think that enters the picture at all.

As you and others who agree with you can see below, she is following the AMA's guidelines and not the irrational fear of many.


How doctors can keep their families safe after providing COVID-19 care

Stay with your family

It might also be appropriate to “do a bit of judicious social distancing,” however, it is important not to “separate ourselves completely from our families,” said Dr. Rupp. “That’s just not something that’s necessary, nor do I think it is healthy for people’s mental health.”

“Some of these emotional supports that people need and require are very important, and if we get into a situation where we're expecting health care providers to come to work and then go home and be isolated,” said Dr. Rupp. “That is not going to be a healthy situation for anybody.”


 

vacationhopeful

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Please let some one know how to run your business just in case of an emergency incident. Please give someone medical power of attorney and power of attorney to run your business and to access your bank accounts to pay your bills and employees. IMO.

All that has been done several years ago, Pedro47.

My siblings are all over the USA ... from sea to shiny sea and the Gulf of Mexico while I have a place in New Jersey. There is a man who has worked for me for over 20 years (longer than he has known his wife). This guy had (and still lights up happy) a BIG crush one of my younger sisters while they were in high school ... she is retired. My dad and his stepfather have passed on years ago but they spent many years working together at town hall.

My brother is a lawyer, one sister is a retired HP corporate officer, my youngest sister's husband is a Pentagon "mucky a de muck" and another sister just retired as a nurse (her husband is a retired MD doctor). And they ALL are very protective of me as I watched over our parents as they aged. We have ONE aunt still living in our family …. 95yo and NOT in nursing home who lives near me … and I have the keys to her parent's house built in 1702 …. never sold but handed down thru the family.

My business worker has my siblings' phone numbers and they have his phone numbers. And they all LIKE each other and exchange phone calls regularly .... I am not sure which way the bitching is going at any particular moment in time but I am sure I am the subject. And I do have a Will, a Long Term Care policy and a decent place to live.

They all truly care about me as I have been there for our parents, my siblings and their kids.

PS I am the "Favorite Aunt". Just ask any or all the nieces and nephews.
 

Sapper

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For the folks saying “but the AMA says so...” Please tell that to the tens of thousands of medical workers who are not just seeing their friends and colleagues become ill, but being the ones to care for them, to place them on oxygen, a vent, ECMO, CRRT, and watching them die. They are self isolating specifically to keep their families from contracting this. Medical personnel know they are high risk, and are self sacrificing for their families.
 

Jan M.

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Jan M, both you and your husband are saying what is wrong with her, and I say what's wrong with the courts!

After all she's been through and continues to be a part of, you both question this Mother's love for her child?

Somehow, you think paying "child support" has a role in her frustration. I for one, don't think that enters the picture at all.

As you and others who agree with you can see below, she is following the AMA's guidelines and not the irrational fear of many.


How doctors can keep their families safe after providing COVID-19 care

Stay with your family

It might also be appropriate to “do a bit of judicious social distancing,” however, it is important not to “separate ourselves completely from our families,” said Dr. Rupp. “That’s just not something that’s necessary, nor do I think it is healthy for people’s mental health.”

“Some of these emotional supports that people need and require are very important, and if we get into a situation where we're expecting health care providers to come to work and then go home and be isolated,” said Dr. Rupp. “That is not going to be a healthy situation for anybody.”



I think you totally missed the point. None of us know what is going through her head. If there are any of the possible underlying issues I mentioned or she is just stressed out and not thinking rationally.

Night after night for weeks now we here in this area are seeing on our news health care professionals talking about how their kids are staying with family members or friends. If there isn't anyone their kids can stay with then they are talking about how concerned they are and the measures they are taking to keep their families safe hoping it's enough. They are talking about working a lot of extra hours and with inadequate supplies and equipment. Right now there aren't many higher risk occupations in the health care field than working as in ER doctor in Miami.

This woman and her ex were the headline story on our news last night. The ex spoke saying I want to keep our daughter safe. She said I want to be with my daughter. It appears that what other health care professionals are doing, the phone calls, video calls, Skype and being able to talk to or see their loved ones from a distance aren't enough to fulfill her needs. Clearly she has no issues with her daughter staying with the father while she is working. The judge ruled that the father should have full time custody at this time and by doing so is saying this is about your child and you don't get to make this about you.

For those of you who are insisting that she should be allowed to do what she wants think about this. Would you volunteer someone you love dearly, someone who is one of the most important people in your world, someone who is dependent on others to make the best decisions for them, to go stay with this woman on her days off and then come back to stay with you and the rest of your family on the days she is working? We've all heard the expressions "put your money where your mouth is" or "put up or shut up". So I'm asking you if right this very second you would hand over that person who means everything to you to someone waiting at your door to take them to stay with this woman? And this is what will happen every couple of days this doctor has off until this has passed or we have a cure or vaccine. Would you risk that person, yourself and anyone else living in your house on this woman saying she is taking all the recommended precautions. That she will never put in so many hours as an ER doctor that she comes home so tired she misses something. That she knows everything there is to know about COVID-19 and can guarantee that your loved one is not at risk? If right this very second you would willingly hand that person who means the world to you over to someone standing at your door then ask your spouse or your parents how they would feel about that and you.

Ask yourselves if you are really aware of what it means to be an ER doctor in Miami right now. There is a lot some of you may not be aware of if you don't live in this area or know someone who does. We know our governor and local officials should have acted sooner to stop college kids from coming here for their Spring Breaks. But that was nothing compared to the several hundred thousand passengers and crew members from the cruise ships, a.k.a. floating petri dishes, that have come and gone out of Port Everglades and Port Miami in February and March. Did you see on the news just recently the measures the cruise lines had to take at their own expense to unload their passengers and crew from the Holland America ships the Rotterdam and the Zaandam? Those ships had been turned away by how many other ports in how many countries before our officials were basically forced to let them disembark? At the time there were 17 cruise ships in port or offshore wanting our ports to accept their passengers and crew members. Those other ships were turned away in other places too. The mayor of Miami got flights from New York/New Jersey stopped, finally, but not soon enough. That area was a hot spot and people who knew they were sick or had been exposed were still flying here. For a while the screening that was supposed to be happening for people getting off cruise ships and flights from New York/New Jersey wasn't happening. Our news crews filmed it and interviewed people saying they were told they would have to be tested/screened but no one was there to do it when they left their ships or planes. We all know that big cities have people who are homeless or poor. Our area with its beaches, sunshine and warm weather doesn't just appeal to tourists and people with the means to come for the winter.
 
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I can say this. If my DH gets sick, I would not isolate him. I would be by his side and risk my own health for him. I can't believe how many people are being ill by themselves and dying alone. If my DH were an ER doctor, I would not make him self isolate. I doubt the majority of front line workers are self isolating just in case. That seems extreme to me and I would need to see a study or survey from a reputable source indicating that as a fact before I will believe it. I do believe that front line workers are being careful and taking precautions as recommended by the health experts. I do believe that some front line workers are self isolating, just like many people are not leaving their house at all right now. Everyone has a different risk tolerance and, in fact, the risk of dying from this virus is still quite small. My family lives in Miami so I am familiar with what is happening over there. I grew up in Miami and have friends and family there. My nephew is a firefighter in Broward County and my SIL is a nurse in Miami. They are not self isolating and they have kids. I guess I should ask them how many of their co-workers are self isolating. Are they terrible parents and should they have their kids removed?
 
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Perhaps you're right. Why should they listen to the oldest and largest organization founded to support them and the patients they treat. Fools.

Listen, I don't pretend to know more about each individual's situation and I suggest others don't either.

I suppose we could demand that each and every person in the medical field or first responders that may, in some way, no matter how small, possibly come into contact with some individual, possibily with Covid-19, lock themselves away from their families for no matter how long necessary. Whatever of course that is or may be. However, I've lived that life, traveled that road and understand the sacrifices that one needs to make. I trust they take every precaution with their families that needs to be made and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit on the sidelines and question their decisions.

Jan by the way, I always enjoy your input. I have respect those who disagree with me and say so, I don't for those that disagree with me and are too cowardly to let me know. :thumbup:
 

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I also respect the people who present their point of view, as long as it is not insulting and bullying. Most people on TUG are respectful, even when they disagree. I think some people do not like debating the issues and see this as fighting.
 

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Here is another story in the New York Times about divorced parents losing custody. This one extends to firefighters too. Next it will be police, grocery stores workers, Home Depot employees... Where will it end?

———

New Battle for Those on Coronavirus Front Lines: Child Custody
Doctors, firefighters and others who risk exposure to Covid-19 are being taken to court by ex-spouses who want to keep them away from their children.



This is so sad and my heart just breaks for everyone in this story, the child missing its mom, the mom and the dad...It's so sad that fear is making everything so complex
 

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Perhaps you're right. Why should they listen to the oldest and largest organization founded to support them and the patients they treat. Fools.

Listen, I don't pretend to know more about each individual's situation and I suggest others don't either.

I suppose we could demand that each and every person in the medical field or first responders that may, in some way, no matter how small, possibly come into contact with some individual, possibily with Covid-19, lock themselves away from their families for no matter how long necessary. Whatever of course that is or may be. However, I've lived that life, traveled that road and understand the sacrifices that one needs to make. I trust they take every precaution with their families that needs to be made and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit on the sidelines and question their decisions.

Jan by the way, I always enjoy your input. I have respect those who disagree with me and say so, I don't for those that disagree with me and are too cowardly to let me know. :thumbup:

I don't like to see more government involvement in our lives or individuals rights being taken away either and I do have concerns about that because of what is going on.

One of the things I see in this particular situation is some people being swayed to side with the mother because almost everyone has the mother and her child mindset. Men have struggled to be viewed by courts and society as capable and caring parents who should have custody over the women who were none of those things to their children.

What I didn't expand on was the mother's possible concerns. Does she feel that this is a slippery slope that could lead to her ex getting permanent full custody? Is she concerned that at 4 years old her daughter could easily become very attached to staying with her father and not bouncing back and forth between her parents? I don't personally know of anyone who is divorced with children who doesn't have moments of jealousy and resentment when the kids come home taking about what they did or the great time they had at the ex's. Those feelings are typically more intense when the spouse is happily remarried and you aren't. It's completely normal to have those feelings and some people are better than others about not showing them to their children or the world. We don't know if the ex is out of work because of this and is more interested in the child support money he is surely getting with having full custody than he is in his daughter's welfare.

The child has two parents who have seemingly co-parented just fine up until now. What is being presented to us and the court is that they now have differing opinions on the subject of the child's safety. Right now with medical professionals changing what they are saying as they learn more there just isn't nearly enough that can be said as fact to satisfy the father and apparently the judge either. I presented what the judge would have taken into consideration when he or she made their decision. Family court judges typically do their best to rule in the best interests of the child or children.
 

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The original ruling giving Eric Greene full custody during the pandemic caused an uproar in the medical community, including the American College of Emergency Physicians.

The group’s president, William Jaquis, said in a statement to The Hill that the organization “stands in solidarity” with Theresa Greene.

 

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First, I'd like to give credit to those people who expressed differing opinions on this post but were able to do so without a bit of 'mud-slinging '. I read the entire post and could identify and respect both points of view. In fact, my own opinion was nearly swayed from my original point of view.

Here's what occurred to me. The ruling by the first judge was influenced by his personal bias. If he was a judge that placed a higher value on civil liberties, he would have ruled in favor of mom.

There were moments I started to lose my initial shock/reaction to this story. I almost forgot how I truly felt, based on some persuasive arguments. (Reminded me a bit of the TV show Bull, for those who are familiar.)

But, in the end, when I read the mom had prevailed -- I cheered for the mom.

Now, if mom/doc was to test positive, I might have to rethink my position.
 

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... The ruling by the first judge was influenced by his personal bias....

Yeah, well, the ruling by the appellate court was based on political considerations.
They were influenced by the medical community including the ER doc's association.
These judges, subject to elections in Florida, know which side their bread is buttered on.
 
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Yeah, well, the ruling by the appellate court was based on political considerations.
They were influenced by the the medical community including the ER doc's association.
These judges, subject to elections in Florida, know which side their bread is buttered on.

As they say... c'est la vie ;)
 

bbodb1

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Sorry, peep, but it will end when parents focus more on what's best for their child instead of what they want for themselves.. They are not "losing" their kids; they are keeping them safe-r.

I suspect that, aside from the publicity seeking litigants, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of parents who are quietly making side arrangements with their ex's to protect their kids.
.

- This. - is BY FAR the most spot on post in this thread.
 

bbodb1

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It's sad that you could look into a Mother's eyes and tell her we're taking your child for something that "may" happen. And just where and when does it stop?
Why would this be any different for a father?
 

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Jan you raise some really good points of the wider picture. There IS a lot to take in. I'm of the mind of the slippery slope we are sliding down. No one is ever 100% safe from just everyday life. Period. So where (potentially) could this end? Being a Miami ER doc is inherently dangerous already. Should we ban people from having kids who are frontline workers in "dangerous" jobs? Sounds like hyperbole, until small things like this start happening all over and next thing you know-that pot of cold water you hopped in is now boiling...And it is one thing to voluntarily give up seeing your kid and another entirely to have that choice taken from you because of your job.
Now, if mom/doc was to test positive, I might have to rethink my position.
Why? At some point nearly everyone will probably be infected (assuming long time til vaccine). It is not the 100% guaranteed death sentence the media hypes with "daily death count". And if it is truly as infectious as the "experts" keep claiming then it is far more widespread than we know. Interesting study from a NYC hospital where they tested 215 women who came in to give birth (their policy is to test all L&D) and 33 of them positive at admit with only 4 actually with any symptoms at the time. It didn't follow up to see how many more may have become symptomatic-I think one ran fever before discharge and was positive when before she was negative. The negative also raises a question of false negative-or maybe just not as infectious for as long as the "experts" are guessing. IF (big IF) that can be extrapolated out-with current testing numbers of severely symptomatic (those being the ones tested in highest quantity) of around 10-15% of population tested with symptoms and another 10-15% asymptomatic-that is a large chunk that is already past this. So that "second wave- would hit 70-80% of population with 10-15% being severe enough to be tested (under current criteria). We want to talk about exponential growth up, but not the numbers on way down. Assuming immunity for some period of time of course (which we won't know for a while).
 

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Why would this be any different for a father?

Never underestimate the maternal bond between a mother and child. A father can only wish for such a relationship. Not that we don't love our children just as much or as deeply, or that they don't love us but, we will never share that special relationship.

Here is just one scientific explanation, but there are many.

 

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My take on their situation may be different than other people's. Parenting as a couple can be challenging but divorced and co-parenting adds more to that even under normal circumstances which this is not. The mother may be changing her story now to make herself look better but every time we saw her speaking it was I want to be with my daughter and I'm being discriminated against. She made this about herself, not her daughter, and that's a hard pill for me to swallow.

Ex: I'm very concerned about our daughter's safety because of what you do and where we live. It seems logical that he would also be concerned about his own safety too because their daughter lives with him on the days she works.
Her: I'm following all the recommended safety procedures.
Ex: What if it isn't enough? There is more and more being learned about this and some of it contradicts what was said earlier. This is our 4 year old daughter whom we both love we're talking about.
Her: I won't even consider it and I don't care what other people are doing or not doing.
Ex: They are at an impasse so he goes to his attorney and they propose that she be given a day of her choosing for every day she would normally have their daughter. Also that there will be daily video calls.
Judge rules for the father.
Her: Getting plenty of media attention saying I'm being discriminated against as a single parent. Saying I want to be with my daughter and as a second play on public sympathy because I'm a hard working ER doctor in Miami during this horrible time I should have what I want.
Second Judge overrules the first one.

Now here is the other part that bothers me about this whole thing.
1. The lack of respect. She ignored his valid concerns and treated him dismissively. He still bent over backwards to offer what he could.
2. What if their roles were reversed. If he was the doctor and she was the one working from home so able to care for their child and worried? There would be a big outcry. People would be claiming things like he was abusing a position of power to bend her to his will when all she cared about was their child. However their roles aren't reversed. Talk about sexist and discriminatory! The ex is now denied any say in this on behalf of his child's welfare or his own. He will still have their daughter on the days she works so he will just have to suck it up and deal with whatever happens and whatever worry or mental anguish this is putting him through. She gets her way and he gets to be her bitch.
 
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WVBaker

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My take on their situation may be different than other people's. Parenting as a couple can be challenging but divorced and co-parenting adds more to that even under normal circumstances which this is not. The mother may be changing her story now to make herself look better but every time we saw her speaking it was I want to be with my daughter and I'm being discriminated against. She made this about herself, not her daughter, and that's a hard pill for me to swallow.

Ex: I'm very concerned about our daughter's safety because of what you do and where we live. It seems logical that he would also be concerned about his own safety too because their daughter lives with him on the days she works.
Her: I'm following all the recommended safety procedures.
Ex: What if it isn't enough? There is more and more being learned about this and some of it contradicts what was said earlier. This is our 4 year old daughter whom we both love we're talking about.
Her: I won't even consider it and I don't care what other people are doing or not doing.
Ex: They are at an impasse so he goes to his attorney and they propose that she be given a day of her choosing for every day she would normally have their daughter. Also that there will be daily video calls.
Judge rules for the father.
Her: Getting plenty of media attention saying I'm being discriminated against as a single parent. Saying I want to be with my daughter and as a second play on public sympathy because I'm a hard working ER doctor in Miami during this horrible time I should have what I want.
Second Judge overrules the first one.

Now here is the part that bothers me about this whole thing.
1. The lack of respect. She ignored his valid concerns and treated him dismissively. He still bent over backwards to offer what he could.
2. What if their roles were reversed. If he was the doctor and she was the one working from home so able to care for their child and worried? There would be a big outcry. People would be claiming things like he was abusing a position of power to bend her to his will when all she cared about was their child. However their roles aren't reversed. Talk about sexist and discriminatory! The ex is now denied any say in this on behalf of his child's welfare or his own. He will still have their daughter on the days she works so he will just have to suck it up and deal with whatever happens and whatever worry or mental anguish this is putting him through. She gets her way and he gets to be her bitch.


Good Morning Jan, those are some serious accusations. Keep in mind she had to make this about herself for her daughter. It was the husband that made it about her, or her job as it was.
 

bbodb1

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Never underestimate the maternal bond between a mother and child. A father can only wish for such a relationship. Not that we don't love our children just as much or as deeply, or that they don't love us but, we will never share that special relationship.

Here is just one scientific explanation, but there are many.


WV,

I am going to respectfully say horse dung to this and move on.
 

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Good Morning Jan, those are some serious accusations. Keep in mind she had to make this about herself for her daughter. It was the husband that made it about her, or her job as it was.

Like I said she may be changing her tune now but before the second ruling that went her way she wasn't saying she was doing it for her daughter. If she was she would have said so because that's what people do.

If you asked adult children of parents who "had to make it about themselves" what they think they would tell you it sucks. Of course it's typically under the guise of being for the children. I've yet to know a single person who even as an adult didn't openly or in their hearts want a parent who made it about their kids. To be clear I think almost every parent has times when their parenting is less than stellar. It doesn't automatically make them a bad parent unless the circumstances truly warrant it. It would be safe to say that in those instances they were a little misguided to just flat out wrong.

We can only arm chair quarterback in their lives. And it was her choice to go on TV and make their private lives public. This could be exactly as it seems or there could be a whole lot we don't know that would change our opinions.

In a healthy marriage a couple respects each other's right to have an opinion and feelings about something even when they don't agree. There is a healthy balance of power in the relationship. When a couple splits up they no longer have an investment in the marriage or each other. Unfortunately when they can't agree or reach a compromise they all too often end up in court.
 
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WVBaker

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Like I said she may be changing her tune now but before the second ruling that went her way she wasn't saying she was doing it for her daughter. If she was she would have said so because that's what people do.

If you asked adult children of parents who "had to make it about themselves" what they think they would tell you it sucks. Of course it's typically under the guise of being for the children. I've yet to know a single person who even as an adult didn't openly or in their hearts want a parent who made it about their kids. To be clear I think almost every parent has times when their parenting is less than stellar. It doesn't automatically make them a bad parent unless the circumstances truly warrant it. It would be safe to say that in those instances they were a little misguided to just flat out wrong.

We can only arm chair quarterback in their lives. And it was her choice to go on TV and make their privates lives public. This could be exactly as it seems or there could be a whole lot we don't know that would change our opinions.

In a healthy marriage a couple respects each other's right to have an opinion and feelings about something even when they don't agree. There is a healthy balance of power in the relationship. When a couple splits up they no longer have an investment in the marriage or each other. Unfortunately when they can't agree or reach a compromise they all too often end up in court.

Appreciate the thoughts. Friends become wiser together through a healthy clash of viewpoints. ;)

She's made her intentions clear about her concern and I for one, don't think she needs to make them clear each and every time she speaks. Not everyone does that. And I doubt you could fine any parent that thinks they were the perfect parent all the time. We all make mistakes. Such is life.

Why she chose to go on T.V., only she knows. I'm not going to "arm chair quarterback" her reasons. Perhaps she felt so frustrated she felt she had no other choice. If the Father feels that same frustration he can choose the same route. I'm sure there may be more we don't know, but we can only base our reasoning on the facts we do know, which have been made public.

I think everyone can see this was not a healthy marriage and yes, it did end up in court.
 
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