American made cars and the bailout

[dougp26364]

I bought my Ford Escape Hybrid in May 2007, when gas was relatively cheap. It even came with a rebate.

How come nobody was buying them when gas was cheap and they had to offer rebates?

-David

I didn't consider it because the cost difference didn't equate to a real savings unless gas hit $5.00/gallon compared to the non-hybrid versions I was considering.

I would love to have a hybrid but, I would also like to keep my money in my wallet. I won't buy something that doesn't make sense. In March, our leases are up on our existing vehicle's. Once again I'll be looking at my options and I'll look at the higher milage vehicles including hybrids.

We've already shopped the Smart Cars and, for the price I really like them. However they require premium gas. That hurts when the MPG is only 30 something in town and 41 highway. I'll have to weigh the decrease use of gas compared to the increase cost for premium to see if I'll at least break even on the deal.

 

[ausman]

You can put me in the camp of let the big 3 go.

However, I find the political response difficult to understand. Supposedly they should have been pushing public transportation options. They should have had an overall energy policy.

To put the blame on the auto makers when every suburban Mum wanted an SUV is passing the buck.

 

[dougp26364]

.........Oh yeah, whoever said they liked their 97 ford Contour, the Contour/Mercury Mistake is one of the biggest piles of garbage FoMoCo has ever produced!

I guess it's a good thing I only owned it for maybe 18 months and put a few thousand miles on it before trading it in on the Mustang. It was fine while we owned it but I have noticed there are darn few of those cars on the road today, which has always made me think they probably weren't built to last.

 

[MILOIOWA]

You can put me in the camp of let the big 3 go.

However, I find the political response difficult to understand. Supposedly they should have been pushing public transportation options. They should have had an overall energy policy.

To put the blame on the auto makers when every suburban Mum wanted an SUV is passing the buck.

Exactly. It is no different than any other business catering to what the consumer wanted. Only on the scale they operate on it is almost impossible to adjust quickly enough to changes in the market. I honestly feel, considering the contracts they have to honor, and with what the unions have gouged them for, they have done all that they could be expected to do considering. I don't care if the gov't bails them out, or they file for protection, one way or another they have to survive and rebound or our whole country is in very big trouble.

 

[Icarus]

I didn't consider it because the cost difference didn't equate to a real savings unless gas hit $5.00/gallon compared to the non-hybrid versions I was considering.

You calculated that on the price of the Escape or the Prius? How did you come up with $5 a gallon?

Anyway, case closed.

People don't want to pay more for cars that get better gas mileage. They read boards like these where people tell them they will never recoup the price difference at $1.89 a gallon.

-David

 

[dfjkl]

Exactly. It is no different than any other business catering to what the consumer wanted. Only on the scale they operate on it is almost impossible to adjust quickly enough to changes in the market. I honestly feel, considering the contracts they have to honor, and with what the unions have gouged them for, they have done all that they could be expected to do considering. I don't care if the gov't bails them out, or they file for protection, one way or another they have to survive and rebound or our whole country is in very big trouble.

Unions can't "gouge" any company any more than their own executive management can. I'd be willing to bet you that the cost of supporting just that handful of people at the top far outweighs the cost of supporting most of the workers. It's those workers that actually make the product. That seems to get lost on those who run to the execs defense.

...and as far as the market, they still didn't adapt to it well. Toyota and Honda both managed to capitalize on reliability AND introduce SUVs to take advantage of that market segment also. They managed to be nimble where the US automakers did not. I'm not saying that they should be forced to close...but unlike the last big bailout...there should be many strings attached...they shouldn't just get free money. ....and it shouldn't have to be the workers that take the biggest hits. They are already getting hit in every single other market segment (as are the average guys everywhere).

I know the most die-hard US automaker fans that have seen those old little Toyota pick-ups beat into the ground that have come away with their minds changed. The realities are the examples of US cars that have had the same kind of longevity are generally few and far between. I do give my '96 T-Bird I had credit for making it to almost 200K (before it got t-boned) but it did have to have a 2nd transmission in it to make it (and it burned oil and leaked anti-freeze). Even my Marauder brand-new was out of alignment and needed to have the shift cable adjusted to reliably grab park. Our Scion...ZERO issues. We've put a set of tires on it, had oil changed, and put gas in it. That's it. Not saying I don't like any vehicles from the big 3, but when it came down to daily drivers that were going to rack up the miles @ 60-80mi/day...well...the "econo-box" versions from the US automakers were low on the list. Reliability and features for the $ did not make them all that appealing. We still own 2 Ford products and a classic GM product though....and would hate to see them go. But then again...I'm sure there are many people who still wish AMC was in business as it's old self too.

 

[Kal]

....The argument that the us makers should have quit making gas guzzling suvs doesnt hold water because that is what the majority of people were buying-UNTIL the worthless liberal media preached all this mumbo-jumbo about how we need to drive 4 cylinder fuel efficient cars, and along with the high gas prices sent people into a panic mode so they quit buying them. The car makers cannot change their production stratagies overnight and when everyone panics, due mostly to them being sheep instead of thinking for themselves and listening to the media....

I think you're on to something here! Just tell the "worthless liberal media" to tell all the sheep to start buying cars, especially the gas guzzling SUVs. Then everything will be fine.

I'll bet that would work to solve the mortgage crisis too. Just have the liberal media tell the sheep to start buying houses.

But if SUVs aren't selling, doesn't that have the same effect on the foreign made brands too? There must be something unique with Detroit as the foreign brands aren't near bankruptcy. Hmmmmm.

 

[Icarus]

I think you're on to something here! Just tell the "worthless liberal media" to tell all the sheep to start buying cars, especially the gas guzzling SUVs. Then everything will be fine.

:rofl:

Do you know what the definition of "worthless liberal media" is? Anybody that questions or doesn't agree with the politics and/or beliefs of the person using the phrase "worthless liberal media".



-David

 

[Kal]

The antonym is "valuable narrow-minded media".

 

[Charlie D.]

Kal,

I think you’re on to something. If the so-called worthless liberal media can get its sheep to buy American autos and Rush can get his sheep to buy American autos, the American automobile companies can get through this!!

Charlie D.

 

[Icarus]

ok, so which media can convince the banks to start lending again?

-David

 

[Kal]

ok, so which media can convince the banks to start lending again?

-David

That's easy - CNBC and the Murdoch Street Journal.

 

[dougp26364]

You calculated that on the price of the Escape or the Prius? How did you come up with $5 a gallon?

Anyway, case closed.

People don't want to pay more for cars that get better gas mileage. They read boards like these where people tell them they will never recoup the price difference at $1.89 a gallon.

-David

I believe I calculated those numbers on the Prius. When I ran my numbers, to make it work out letting my Vue go back and buying the Prius, gas would have to be near $5.00/gallon to break even on the additional price/cost of the Prius. The problem is I just don't drive that many miles so the savings isn't there.

Now, if I was putting 15,000 miles per year on a car, which as I understand it is pretty much average, the cost per gallon would be a considerably lower break even point.

I have time to mull things over and I'd really like to have a car that's easier on the environment, even if the cost doesn't really work out. Sometimes what I want is more important than what makes the most dollar sense for me. My wife REALLY likes those smart cars. They're inexpensive enough that I might just buy one to make her happy.

 

[Icarus]

The problem is I just don't drive that many miles so the savings isn't there.

ok, I get it. Thanks for the explanation.

I was wondering because when I bought my FEH, the price difference after the rebate wasn't that much. I traded in a 2000 Ford Explorer which, at best, got around 18 or so for me. My FEH gets around 29.5 for me on average according to the display in the car. I don't drive that many miles per year either, but that really wasn't part of the equation for me.

I don't know if I'd get that Smart car or not, Doug. Take a look at the Honda Fit or something like that instead.

-David

 

[dougp26364]

ok, I get it. Thanks for the explanation.

I was wondering because when I bought my FEH, the price difference after the rebate wasn't that much. I traded in a 2000 Ford Explorer which, at best, got around 18 or so for me. My FEH gets around 29.5 for me on average according to the display in the car. I don't drive that many miles per year either, but that really wasn't part of the equation for me.

I don't know if I'd get that Smart car or not, Doug. Take a look at the Honda Fit or something like that instead.

-David

The Smart Car probably isn't the smartest choice (no pun intended) when comparing to other economy model's. At 31 MPG in the city and requiring premium gas, I can see that it might not be the best choice for fuel economy out there.

Still, they have been relativiely popular in Europe from what we saw when we were in Italy, and they were surprisingly comfortable when we shopped them in Palm Beach, FL earlier this month. I was really surprised by the comfort and leg room provided. I would say it's strictly a town car though as I don't believe this tiny thing would work well drivng long distances on the highway. They also have particular requirements for someone to work on them and they can't just be taken anywhere for even a simple oil change.

I really equate them to the VW Beatle of the 60's. They may be popular for a time and end up with a fond place in people's memory but, the newer technology and comfort of cars like the Honda Fit may already have made them obsolete before they really get started. If the price of Gas remains low, I don't see them really ever taking off here.

 

[DebBrown]

Speaking of the Honda Fit... (Somebody was, right?) we bought one earlier this year for our son. I looked hard at the Prius but it was $10k more and even with the price of gas, was beyond our budget. The Fit was an ideal addition to our family. I had given up my minivan a few years ago and really like the hatchback and fold down seats on the Fit for hauling stuff.

Many Smart cars have popped up in our neighborhood but, man, they are so tiny. There is no room for passengers or much more than a few bags of groceries.

Deb

 

[MILOIOWA]

Obviously I am dealing with far superior intellect here. I guess I should start listening to CNN and Fox News before making any decisions in the future. Thanks for the enlightenment.

 

[Icarus]

Obviously I am dealing with far superior intellect here. I guess I should start listening to CNN and Fox News before making any decisions in the future. Thanks for the enlightenment.

:rofl:

You are the one who said that people stopped buying big American made gas guzzlers because of a conspiracy of the so-called worthless liberal media.

Somehow, I seriously doubt that any post here is going to enlighten you to form your own opinions, do your own research, and stop blaming the media for our problems.

-David

 

[Icarus]

Doug .. here's a picture of the European version of the smart car I took in Paris in 2006. It's good for city parking in tiny spots.

Sometimes we saw them parked perpendicular to the curb.

I know the US version is a little different.

-David

 

[Liz Wolf-Spada]

My son, who lives in San Francisco, bought a real junk car and it needs more work than it's worth. I asked him about the Smart Car, because they're not expensive and they make parking easier. He said he drove one and the lack of instant acceleration scared him. He's someone who insists on a manual for that reason also.
Liz

 

[dougp26364]

Doug .. here's a picture of the European version of the smart car I took in Paris in 2006. It's good for city parking in tiny spots.

Sometimes we saw them parked perpendicular to the curb.

I know the US version is a little different.


-David

We saw a ton of them in Italy. They'd park 3 or 4 of them perpendicular to the curb in one parking spot. The dealership we went to in FL had them parked two to a parking stall end to end. I believe they had issues with US safety and emission standards in getting them across the pond. I don't know if the MPG is the same or not.

The car is essentially all plastic except for the passenger frame/cage. The panels are plastic and, if you want a different color, you can have the panels changed out in about 2 hours.

They are interesting cars and my wife is in love with them. Personally, I'm not convinced but, they are neat little cars.

 

[dougp26364]

My son, who lives in San Francisco, bought a real junk car and it needs more work than it's worth. I asked him about the Smart Car, because they're not expensive and they make parking easier. He said he drove one and the lack of instant acceleration scared him. He's someone who insists on a manual for that reason also.
Liz

The transmission is the one thing I really don't like about this car. It's a manual/automatic. As it was explained to me, there is no clutch but, in order to get the transmission to shift, when you hit a certain point you have to let off the gas and let the transmission go to the next gear. This is a lot like a manual but, there's no clutch.

I don't see this car as a great highway car but more of a town car. I haven't driven one but I could see this little car having issues with power getting out onto a freeway.

 

[ricoba]

I could see this little car having issues with power getting out onto a freeway.

I have had more than one of them pass me on the freeway, while I was doing 65+ MPH!

But I do agree that they would be a better car around town. On a road trip, I would prefer my Lincoln Town Car!

 

[Carol C]

I heard an auto industry expert interviewed on CNN a couple days ago, and she had an interesting idea. She thinks the giant oil companies that are making record profits should be the ones to bailout the auto companies. After all, the oil giants like Exxon Mobile made huge profits thanks to the Big 3 producing primarily gas-guzzling vehicles. Makes sense to me that big oil should help big auto stay afloat!

 

[ricoba]

I heard an auto industry expert interviewed on CNN a couple days ago, and she had an interesting idea. She thinks the giant oil companies that are making record profits should be the ones to bailout the auto companies. After all, the oil giants like Exxon Mobile made huge profits thanks to the Big 3 producing primarily gas-guzzling vehicles. Makes sense to me that big oil should help big auto stay afloat!

Not sure if that could or would work in the real world, but the idea does have a certain appeal to it.