Advice needed - Parents purchased MVC points retail and are having second thoughts, should they consider resale instead?

[eaww1313]

Hi all,

So glad I stumbled upon this community. Have read through a lot of threads and it's such a helpful and intelligent group. Hoping to get some info that can help me advise my parents on their current situation (currently in a 10-day cooldown period and are having second thoughts)

About six months ago my parents were on vacation at a MVC resort and attended a sales pitch to get a free dinner or something. You know how this story ends... They get talked into a 5K point package. They mentioned this to me and my siblings. Alarm bells immediately go off in my head but I figured it was a relatively minor purchase, not sure why but the reference to "points" made me think it was probably like $5-10K. We find out later of course it was ~$80K. Oofda. Whatever, I figured it was probably a pretty bad deal but it's their money obviously and nothing we could do at that point.

Fast forward to this week, my parents are staying at another MVC and my dad casually mentions they had "upgraded" their points position. Again, I figured "oh they must have spent another few thousand bucks to get some sort of benefits, no big deal". Nope, turns out by "upgrade", he meant that they had effectively doubled their investment. Another 5K points per year for $70-80K.

At this point I'm like oh boy they are really getting sucked in here. Did a bunch of research on the whole program. I'm sure there are different views on this forum, but from my perspective, it seems like a decent investment for those who are ready and willing to "play the game" - be pretty flexible on when/where they vacation and find opportunities to maximize their point value. This is not my parents... when my dad needs to buy a flight he goes to delta.com. My parents are very smart, but they have no interest in playing the travel optimization game. So, long story short, I think they'll probably end up getting like $1/point value out of these, if they use all their points every year. So basically cover the annual maintenance fees. Obviously, there are some other benefits they'll get but I think (well can almost guarantee) they'd be better off just using the cash they'd spend on maintenance fees and book whatever they want when they want (MVC rooms or otherwise)... to say nothing about the upfront cost

Again, obviously, it's their money, but I'm just trying to look out for them and help them get the best value for what they want. I quickly learned about the 10-day "cool off" period (thank god) and realized that these points trade much lower than retail price on Redweek, etc.

I came to my parents with this info and they were pretty shocked. Specifically about the resale market. The Marriott salesperson basically told them that if they ever wanted to sell the points, Marriott would likely buy them back at a profit (i.e., for more than they paid to get them retail). Oofda. These salespeople are good. Obviously, not the case, based on not only listings on redweek but also the rofr tracker these points commonly trade hands as low as $3 a point. In no world is Marriott buying these points back from my parents for more than $15 (about what they paid).

As I said, I think the program overall is not a great deal for them and if it were up to me (which it's not) I'd hope they just cancel the whole thing and stick with their initial 5K points (can't do anything about that now). But, if they really want these additional 5K points, it seems clear at the very least they should cancel their retail deal and buy them resale. I have a few questions related to this:

• I know there is a $3 per point Marriott transfer fee (god this is sleazy)... I am 90% sure they'd have to pay this but I've seen it referred to as an "initiation fee" in some places... any chance they wouldn't have to pay this since they are already owners?
  • If not, would they at least be exempt from the $300 "new member education fee" (lol)
• Crazy to me that there seems to be not a lot of rhyme or reason to what price Marriott will block a sale at based on the rofr tracker... in the past year, some sales have gone through $1.50, some have failed at $3.50
  • Maybe just some data issues on that tracker... but biggest question I have is if they find a deal to buy points resale, and then Marriott uses its rofr, are they on the hook for any costs?
  • Just want to make sure that if they go through a couple deals where Marriott uses rofr before they get one through they aren't going to end up spending more than they would have retail
• Just want to make sure I have the math right here:
  • For this "upgrade" of 5k points, they paid around $70-80K... think it was either $14 or $15 per point
  • If they bought resale at a price that's reasonably likely to pass rofr, say conservatively $5 per point, plus had to pay the $3 per point "transfer fee" that's $8 per point = $40K
  • Assuming there are some misc "closing costs", other Marriott nickel and dime fees, etc but hopefully under $5K? So total would be ~$45K conservatively.... vs $70-80K... pretty sizeable difference obviously
• For anyone who has bought points resale, is it relatively simple / straightforward?
  • I know there are brokers, but I'm worried that a lot of them are pretty scammy (this industry, man)... if it's not a pretty straightforward process I think it'd be worth it for them to give up some of those savings vs. retail to have a reputable and honest broker help them through the process, are there a couple that have good reputations on this forum?

So from my perspective, at the very least if they are going to get these additional 5K points they should cancel the retail deal and buy resale. But just want to make sure I'm thinking about this right and haven't missed anything.

THANK YOU so much. Apologies for the long post, I know most (probably all) of this info is out on the forums somewhere but I promise I've spent at least 3 or 4 hours researching and haven't found exactly what I needed to make me feel comfortable advising my parents on this. It's quite a lot of money for them (would be for anyone) so just trying to make sure we are informed. They have until Thursday to back out when the 10-day cooldown period ends.


-Eliot

 

[Hindsite]

If in doubt rescind while you still can. Then do a load of research into what, if anything, is suitable for their needs, and then proceed with that.

If your decision is to proceed with an MVC offer, be assured that they will take your money any day, and you'll be able to negotiate a price at least as good.

Yes the MVC Club points resale market is almost totally a no brainer, but there are also ways that you can purchase direct at a decent proceed, such as an overseas enrolled week. Buying resale can also be a bit of a mission due to needing to try and second guess the price at which MVC will no exercise their right of first refusal.

 

[zentraveler]

You will get lots of advice but the $$$ amount they paid are eye popping to me. Short time to rescind, and that deal will always be there.

 

[goodbadugly]

If in doubt rescind while you still can. Then do a load of research into what, if anything, is suitable for their needs, and then proceed with that.

If your decision is to proceed with an MVC offer, be assured that they will take your money any day, and you'll be able to negotiate a price at least as good.

Yes the MVC Club points resale market is almost totally a no brainer, but there are also ways that you can purchase direct at a decent proceed, such as an overseas enrolled week. Buying resale can also be a bit of a mission due to needing to try and second guess the price at which MVC will no exercise their right of first refusal.

First things first. RESCIND the second purchase ASAP! I agree with Hindsite regarding MVC's willingness "to take your money anyday"!

 

[LeslieDet]

It sounds like your parents were convinced that they needed to be at the "presidential" owner level, which does offer different perks from the owner level known as "select", which is where they were with owning 5000 MVC Trust Points. If they want the perks of being presidential (you can look on the owner website to see the differences between the owner levels), then yep, they can buy resale to get there.

Frankly, the $3/point activation fee for resale buyers isn't "sleazy" as you put it. What would be sleazy is if resale points could not be used in the same manner as developer purchased points, like is the case with resale buyers in the Sheraton Flex and Westin Flex programs (and other timeshares). As existing owners, they won't have to pay the education fee, but if they want their points to work for them like the ones they bought directly from MVC, then yep, they need to pay the $3/point (min $3k) fee. The good news is with resale MVC Trust Points, once the activation fee is paid they work just like the developer purchased ones.

The only difference that your parents will most likely see is that resale buys are not going to get them the bonus points most likely offered to them or the BonVoy points for putting the purchase on their Marriott branded credit card ( I'm assuming they are financially able to buy the points without taking out the seller financing).

You made some comment that you think your parents will only realize a value of perhaps $1/point in usage. I'm not sure where you are coming up with that value. Folks need to learn how to use the system, and many of the owners are very happy with their ownership and are able to maximize their usage value by booking locations that would cost them significantly more than the annual maintenance fee on the ownership should they be paying in cash instead.

If your parents do decide to purchase resale, and MVC exercises its ROFR on the deal, your parents are only out the time spent. It isn't going to penalize them and make them pay for something they are not buying. That isn't how a ROFR works.

Regarding the promise of a buyback by MVC, salesmen have been saying that for years and years. Folks don't pay attention to the wording, basically, the representations are typically phrased to say MVC will buy back at 50% of the current "resale" price. Although since the pandemic, MVC doesn't buy back Trust Points at all unless it is done via the ROFR, so any promises relating to a guaranteed buyback are complete BS. BTW - the contract they signed has an integration clause, and thus none of the verbal sales pitch promise relating to resale or buyback are actually in the written contract. If it isn't in the written agreement, it isn't part of the deal.

If your parents really don't desire the perks of being a presidential level owner, then I'd suggest they should consider staying at the select level and simply renting Club Points from fellow owners should the need arise for them to have additional points above 5000 on any given use year. IDK what their goals are, or if they really want the BonVoy titanium level status or the United Silver status that comes with presidential level ownership, then resale is definitely the way to proceed.

Also, IDK how old your parents are, but I would discourage them from adding to their ownership simply to have the presidential level perks, unless they really, really need to have the titanium status with BonVoy, the Silver status with United, and the ability to bank their Club Points for up to 18 months. Oh, and unless they really aren't worried about paying annual maintenance fees that will be $9k for 2025 and probably close to $10k for 2026 on 10k in owned Club Points, again, I would discourage the purchase.

 

[HudsHut]

@eaww1313
Welcome to TUG. I'm delighted that you found us. Thank you for helping your parents.

PLEASE have them RESCIND, immediately.

Do let them know, in any year if they need more points, they may rent from other Owners. There are ALWAYS owners trying to rent out their points.

 

[eaww1313]

Thank you all very much for all the help, I've sent them some of the info provided here and they are discussing things tonight but sounding very likely that they will rescind.

@lesliedent thanks for all the info, I think "sleazy" might have been too strong of a word but it just feels so unnecessarily punitive. Basically reduces the market price of these points by $3, which depending on where you look, might be 50%+ of their value. And for what? Do they do any work / incur any expense if points change hands between two third parties? They are already charging people way above the market clearing price for these points and it just drives resale value down further. Like I said, I do think it's a decent program and believe many people get great enjoyment out of it, but in order for it to be a "good deal" (i.e., get the same experience for less $$ than you would spend booking with cash) you really have to know how to work the system (which my parents have no interest in doing). Again thanks for the info!

 

[Pamplemousse]

Thank you all very much for all the help, I've sent them some of the info provided here and they are discussing things tonight but sounding very likely that they will rescind.

@lesliedent thanks for all the info, I think "sleazy" might have been too strong of a word but it just feels so unnecessarily punitive. Basically reduces the market price of these points by $3, which depending on where you look, might be 50%+ of their value. And for what? Do they do any work / incur any expense if points change hands between two third parties? They are already charging people way above the market clearing price for these points and it just drives resale value down further. Like I said, I do think it's a decent program and believe many people get great enjoyment out of it, but in order for it to be a "good deal" (i.e., get the same experience for less $$ than you would spend booking with cash) you really have to know how to work the system (which my parents have no interest in doing). Again thanks for the info!

But this isn’t supposed to be a business, you are not supposed to be selling your points resale for gain.
You are to use them for your own personal enjoyment.
If you do need/want to sell off your points (or buy resale) they will sell at what the market will bear. And yes the buyer will have to pay MVC to get the points on par with what they would have purchased for so much more directly. Obviously MVC wants to do the selling themselves and discourages resale- they are a business.

I think the major thing you should be concerned about is your parents spending that kind of money on an impulse buy without doing research first. That would frighten me. I don’t know the ages or financial situation of course but sounds like they are susceptible to influence. Hopefully you can talk them into consulting you before making major purchases in the future and then do the research together. MVC points could be the least of your worries. Get them to rescind this 2nd purchase and then help them learn how to use and enjoy the points they have. Good luck.

 

[Pink_Warrior]

I bought 10k points this year, all resale. It was very easy. I used docusign and submitted a deposit. Once MVC waives ROFR, I submitted the balance, the deed was recorded and submitted to Marriott.

 

[goodbadugly]

I bought 10k points this year, all resale. It was very easy. I used docusign and submitted a deposit. Once MVC waives ROFR, I submitted the balance, the deed was recorded and submitted to Marriott.

Smart!

 

[GTLINZ]

Thank you all very much for all the help, I've sent them some of the info provided here and they are discussing things tonight but sounding very likely that they will rescind.

If you need more info to convince your parents of the need to rescind, please check out somebody trying to give points away here on TUG. There are interesting comments that go with it.

FREE - Marriott Vacation Club - 1500 Points Annually

Fees and Taxes due 12/2 of each year. This years fees and taxes paid. Seller will pay transfer fee. Usage year starts January 1. Please email ostromeric@yahoo.com. Have a great day.

tugbbs.com

Obviously, they already have 5k points and it sounds like they are using them - so they are getting some value after spending too much in the first place - but they have a level already that should give them some advantages. I wonder if they are aware of the fact that they can buy extra points from other Abound owners for larger vacations - and not have the commitment of the MFs every year - or the upfront cost you wisely mentioned.

 

[jp10558]

I'd also rescind, and work out what your parents are specifically intending to do, because from what I'm seeing, MVC Abound (trust) remains even in resale one of the most expensive ways to get and use a timeshare. Unless they are focused on JUST MVC locations, I'd generally strongly recommend considering competitors in Wyndham, Worldmark, HGVC... all of which you can get into resale for much less than your resale calculations above. (Though IDK what the 5000pts gets you in Abound, so maybe that's a lot of weeks?)

If you're OK with the value per point and don't want to maximize savings you certainly don't have to "play the game", but OTOH, about 50% of that is booking in advance and considering using II exchanges instead of paying for Abound activation I think.

 

[WBP]

I don’t know the age of your parents, but, I wonder if the MVC salesforce is preying on innocent elders?

 

[TUGBrian]

congrats on saving your parents $80,000 bucks!

have them read up on the resale market, they should get you a wonderful christmas gift this year after they do =)

 

[LeslieDet]

considering using II exchanges instead of paying for Abound activation I think.

Just FYI - MVC Trust Points are unable to access any of the MVC, Westin VC or Sheraton VC properties if deposited or exchanged into II. Basically, Trust Point owners don't get much out of II and won't be able to exchange within the brand.

 

[jp10558]

Just FYI - MVC Trust Points are unable to access any of the MVC, Westin VC or Sheraton VC properties if deposited or exchanged into II. Basically, Trust Point owners don't get much out of II and won't be able to exchange within the brand.

I was thinking if you bought resale in Marriott you could elect not to "certify" and then it's a week you can deposit into II. Maybe I misunderstood. I'm not a MVC owner.

 

[LeslieDet]

I was thinking if you bought resale in Marriott you could elect not to "certify" and then it's a week you can deposit into II. Maybe I misunderstood. I'm not a MVC owner.

That is for deeded or RTU week resale properties; when MVC Trust Points are purchased resale, then there is a $3/point (min $3k) activation fee that is required in order for those resale points to be treated the same as points bought directly from the developer. If the activation fee is not paid, then the points don't count towards owner level, and they have no benefits whatsoever and are treated as "holding" points, meaning they can only be booked 60 days in advance, no banking, borrowing, or other transfer. Basically they are worthless without activation.

 

[m61376]

Like others have said, they should rescind now and consider their options. Easy to buy and hard to sell.
That said, another thing to think about- how are they using their current purchase? Do they like to go to a certain area repeatedly? If so, they might consider buying a resale week where they like to go. For example, we like to return to Aruba, and have bought weeks there. When we don't se our full unit we will lock off and trade part for a nice week elsewhere. This summer family can't make the week I reserved our 3 BR for, so I am renting it and using the proceeds to rent a nice 2BR at the Westin in Maui. So there are many options when using an owned legacy week- occupying, trading all or part in II, or renting it.
I've found II trades to be of great value, and this is the first time I'm renting a week, but due to specific time constraints I didn't want to leave a trade to chance, and was able to get what we needed, for the exact dates, and our first choice of properties. And it's a financial wash so another great use of my unit. Just trying to illustrate there are other things worth considering than purchasing only more points.
Having a beach property is a great way to start annual family vacations with the kids/grandkids. Something they might want to consider.