2025 Proposed Abound Trust Points MF's [Discussion Thread]

[Hindsite]

Do what businesses do when their input costs rise - raise the rental price to keep your margins intact.

The other flaw is that not everyone's input costs are the same. There are many enrolled weeks owners whose maintenance fee equivalent cost per club point that is much lower than the maint fees for Trust club points.

 

[JIMinNC]

The other flaw is that not everyone's input costs are the same. There are many enrolled weeks owners whose maintenance fee equivalent cost per club point that is much lower than the maint fees for Trust club points.

Agreed. The market advantage often goes to the low cost producer. Owning Trust Points to book weeks to rent for a profit seems like a poor business model as legacy weeks owners have always had a cost advantage over Trust points. Trust points excel as a flexible usage option for owner use, but seem to be a poor choice for profit focused owner rentals, since even for straight point rentals on sites like VPE, many enrolled owners have a big advantage and can set the market price below Trust point costs. Still seems like a generally bad business to try to play in - except as a way to simply recoup your costs for points you can't use yourself.

 

[Red elephant]

Agreed. The market advantage often goes to the low cost producer. Owning Trust Points to book weeks to rent for a profit seems like a poor business model as legacy weeks owners have always had a cost advantage over Trust points. Trust points excel as a flexible usage option for owner use, but seem to be a poor choice for profit focused owner rentals, since even for straight point rentals on sites like VPE, many enrolled owners have a big advantage and can set the market price below Trust point costs. Still seems like a generally bad business to try to play in - except as a way to simply recoup your costs for points you can't use yourself.

Points are meant to be used to take advantage of their flexibility and use during low season. Lakeshore Reserve cost me 1250 points 2nd week in December. 2460 points in February so I did an interval OGS for that. It is too costly to compete for the same rental market as enrolled week owners whose bottom line is cheaper. IMHO and from what I have learned from this site.

 

[goodbadugly]

It doesn't have to be a losing proposition. Do what businesses do when their input costs rise - raise the rental price to keep your margins intact. Hotel costs have risen significantly over the last 4 years since the pandemic ended, so people renting from owners shouldn't expect to pay what they did in 2019. Raising the rental price to protect margins as maintenance fees go up is how a rational market should behave. If all owners follow a profit-based model, that's how it would work.

I acknowledge that, unfortunately, the owner-rental market is not alway a rational marketplace. Unlike for-profit businesses, some individual owners may set their prices artificially low just to recoup maintenance fees, not to make a profit. As result, the owner rental market tends to be under-priced, and doesn't always behave as a profit-based market would. So, the problem may not actually be the rising maintenance fees. The problem may be that the owner rental market is economically flawed, since it's not always a profit oriented marketplace. The bottom-feeders set the market price. To me, that seems like a market to steer away from as a business/seller.

Rentals are flooding the market driving the costs down while MFs continue to rise.

 

[goodbadugly]

What "whole thing" is going to crater and how does that impact resort operations?

MFs pay for resort operations!

 

[JIMinNC]

Rentals are flooding the market driving the costs down while MFs continue to rise.

That’s why I was saying owning to rent for a profit in such a “business” seems like a poor use of capital. The owner-rental market is not driven by traditional profit motivation. As I noted, it’s a race to the bottom.

 

[winger]

Plus, add the Club Fee - I believe the MF $/Pt should include the Club Fee

Not to mention that the Club Fee $/Pt will also vary with the number of points owned.

No it shouldn’t. Different owners will have a different Club Fee based on owner benefit level.

I agree that $Club Fee/Pt when including Club Fee will vary for each member, but maybe that is the point, have another $Club Fee/pt that is based on an individual's specific ownership. This cost will/can be helpful in some instances for individuals. The 'normal' $Club Fee/Pt can still be used by most comparing appless to apples.

 

[dioxide45]

I agree that $Club Fee/Pt when including Club Fee will vary for each member, but maybe that is the point, have another $Club Fee/pt that is based on an individual's specific ownership. This cost will/can be helpful in some instances for individuals. The 'normal' $Club Fee/Pt can still be used by most comparing appless to apples.

But for some people the Club Fee per point could be a penny. Others it could be ten cents. Since the Club Fee is a fixed dollar amount based on ownership level, I don't think it is relative to MF discussions other than stating what the Club Fee dollar amount is.

 

[Hindsite]

I agree that $Club Fee/Pt when including Club Fee will vary for each member, but maybe that is the point, have another $Club Fee/pt that is based on an individual's specific ownership. This cost will/can be helpful in some instances for individuals. The 'normal' $Club Fee/Pt can still be used by most comparing appless to apples.

.. and then some people pay local taxes on the club fees, so that causes a variation that doesn't support comparison.
Maint fee/club point is a better way to try and do a comparison.

 

[bazzap]

.. and then some people pay local taxes on the club fees, so that causes a variation that doesn't support comparison.
Maint fee/club point is a better way to try and do a comparison.

Yes, nothing is ever really so simple with MVC.
We, like other European enrolled weeks resort owners pay Spanish VAT on our Club Dues.
And it is not even that simple as the total Club Dues will vary dependent on how many of these weeks you own in your total portfolio.
So for 2024 we paid $310.26 Club Dues!

 

[Dean]

I agree that $Club Fee/Pt when including Club Fee will vary for each member, but maybe that is the point, have another $Club Fee/pt that is based on an individual's specific ownership. This cost will/can be helpful in some instances for individuals. The 'normal' $Club Fee/Pt can still be used by most comparing appless to apples.

I'm sure the reason for the club fee structure is that the management costs are relatively fixed on a per person basis rather than based on volume. Obviously with more volume comes more transactions but the reality is that those with low points amounts tend to call far more comparatively speaking because they have limited options and are trying to maximize those options. Still in the large scheme of things it's negligible unless one has a very limited number of points in play.

Yes, nothing is ever really so simple with MVC.
We, like other European enrolled weeks resort owners pay Spanish VAT on our Club Dues.
And it is not even that simple as the total Club Dues will vary dependent on how many of these weeks you own in your total portfolio.
So for 2024 we paid $310.26 Club Dues!

But isn't that based on the laws of the area and not within MVC's control?

 

[bazzap]

I'm sure the reason for the club fee structure is that the management costs are relatively fixed on a per person basis rather than based on volume. Obviously with more volume comes more transactions but the reality is that those with low points amounts tend to call far more comparatively speaking because they have limited options and are trying to maximize those options. Still in the large scheme of things it's negligible unless one has a very limited number of points in play.

But isn't that based on the laws of the area and not within MVC's control?

Absolutely yes.
I wasn’t suggesting anyone is doing anything wrong with this, just seeking to point out that different Owners may pay a whole range of different Club Dues dependent on what they own not just the 3x standard Owner Level Club Dues.

 

[Dean]

Absolutely yes.
I wasn’t suggesting anyone is doing anything wrong with this, just seeking to point out that different Owners may pay a whole range of different Club Dues dependent on what they own not just the 3x standard Owner Level Club Dues.

Thanks Barry, just making sure I understood the specifics. I would think that anywhere with a VAT affects purchase decisions pretty strongly for those where it is applicable.

 

[vacationtime1]

Abound Trust Points

2025 Operating Fee: $0.80944
2025 Property Tax Fee: $0.00536
Total: $0.81480 per point, for a 3.5% uptick.

Prior year…
2024 Operating Fee: $0.78292
2024 Property Tax Fee: $0.00456
Total: $0.78748 per point

The "property tax fee" (note that they don't call it property taxes) went up by 17.5%.

Curious.

[Moderator Note: This post and responses to it have been moved from the 2025 MF's sticky thread.] <-- SueDonJ

 

[daviator]

The "property tax fee" (note that they don't call it property taxes) went up by 17.5%.

Curious.

It’s not a direct payment of property taxes, it’s an amalgamation of property taxes across the whole portfolio of properties. I think they call it a fee to try to dissuade the (false) idea that you could deduct this on your tax return.

 

[vacationtime1]

It’s not a direct payment of property taxes, it’s an amalgamation of property taxes across the whole portfolio of properties. I think they call it a fee to try to dissuade the (false) idea that you could deduct this on your tax return.

That is exactly why I find the 17.5% increase to be curious. The fee cannot be an amalgamation of property taxes across the whole portfolio of properties, because overall property taxes per Beneficial Interest did not increase by 17.5%.

So what is it? Because if it's not property tax, it's profit for Marriott.

 

[Fasttr]

That is exactly why I find the 17.5% increase to be curious. The fee cannot be an amalgamation of property taxes across the whole portfolio of properties, because overall property taxes per Beneficial Interest did not increase by 17.5%.

So what is it? Because if it's not property tax, it's profit for Marriott.

About 85% of the uptick can be explained by a property tax accrual reduction accounted for in 2024.

From the MF thread history.....
2023 Property Tax Fee: $0.00592
2024 Property Tax Fee: $0.00456
2025 Property Tax Fee: $0.00536

See the dip in 2024.

Then look at the proposed 2025 budget vs the 2024 budget at this link... https://image.email1.marriott-vacat.../m/1/923f5089-976c-4c37-b54a-3845d90a68a6.pdf

Look at the last line under Revenues....where for 2024, there was a .17 per BI property tax surplus return which presumably reduced the 2024 property tax fee number. .17 / 250 = .00068 per point

The 2025 vs 2024 uptick totaled .00080 per point, so .00068 is 85% of that uptick. Appears the accrual was growing, and they gave some of it back in 2024, and since 2024 Trust Property Tax Fees went down as a result, it made the uptick in 2025 look unusually large.

And sorry @SueDonJ as all of this Trust point property tax fee discussion should be in the MF discussion thread, not here, so feel free to move it as you see fit.

 

[daviator]

That is exactly why I find the 17.5% increase to be curious. The fee cannot be an amalgamation of property taxes across the whole portfolio of properties, because overall property taxes per Beneficial Interest did not increase by 17.5%.

So what is it? Because if it's not property tax, it's profit for Marriott.

Sorry, I focused on the wrong thing. Yes, it seems unlikely that property taxes across the portfolio increased by 17.5%. Certainly property values did not increase that significantly in one year. I think that’s a good question you should pose to MVC, they do typically provide an email address for questions on the MFs.

 

[briking]

Hi all, I'm not an owner but am looking at MVC/Abound points on ebay. MF Comes out to $0.8717/point.
Is that in line with what you all are seeing?

This is the ad. https://www.ebay.com/itm/156537154666

Points: 3,500 (MVC Trust Points)

Beneficial Interests: 14 (250 Points per B.I.)

Usage: Annual Starting 2025

Trading Company: Interval International Mortgage: Paid in Full, Title is Free & Clear Maintenance Fee Approx.: $3,051.18 (Starting 2026)
​

[Moderator Note: Post and response moved from the 2025 MF's sticky thread.] <-- SueDonJ

 

[dioxide45]

Hi all, I'm not an owner but am looking at MVC/Abound points on ebay. MF Comes out to $0.8717/point.
Is that in line with what you all are seeing?

This is the ad. https://www.ebay.com/itm/156537154666

Points: 3,500 (MVC Trust Points)

Beneficial Interests: 14 (250 Points per B.I.)

Usage: Annual Starting 2025

Trading Company: Interval International Mortgage: Paid in Full, Title is Free & Clear Maintenance Fee Approx.: $3,051.18 (Starting 2026)​

They are probably including the Club Dues in the total maintenance fees which is pushing the MF per point above what the actual amount is without the Club Dues included. Trust point MFs have already been reported in post #2.