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[2016] Aspen Highlands Ritz owners suing

amanda14

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I remember looking at one of these in Florida I think just to see what it was all about and the idea seemed great. Then I saw the MFs and then returned to the atmosphere of a generic Marriott Timeshare Owner. I
 

Fasttr

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^^^ The same way the Target people feel when the Walmart people start shopping in their store. ;-)
 

rthib

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Doing some back of the napkin math from Article. They own fractional unit of 4 weeks.
Complaining they are paying $12,000 - $16,000 maintenance fee (or $3K-4K week)
They obviously don't understand points program. Looked at point charts - between 8K - 17K points a week or $4K-$8.5K in maintenance fee for those points.

As for loss of value $200,000 - $400,000 (or $50 -$100K / week) Now selling for $28-$48 or ($7K to $12K a week.)
That looks about right for resale market. People just thought that because it had the Ritz name it would not behave the way all other time share values have.

Also, someone mentioned the number of plaintiffs - once it got class action, you have to ask to not be included so most folks figure what's the harm.

I can't see this lawsuit going anywhere base on those complaints but I can see why Marriott wants it dismissed instead of trial.
Won't be great PR for them to argue that they loss in value is what everyone should expect in a timeshare.
 

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Way to go Sapper. Nice to see I'm not the only following this story . . . . as it slowly continues on.
 

TXTortoise

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Let's see: Ritz-Carlton original four week ownership low end @ $200K, with four weeks of MFs at $12,000, also low end.

Marriott Maui Lahaina/Napili Winter Fixed Weeks - Four weeks currently from $150K to $300K, with MFs at $10K to $12K. (Original prices around $300K+)

Wonder what the specific old/new values look like for Maui Ritz-Carlton four-week fractional, as the MOC values seem to be about the same now.
 

Quilter

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From the above link:

“More than 240 owners of timeshares at the Ritz-Carlton Club at Aspen Highlands scored a recent legal victory in their litigation claiming their properties' values dropped by more than 80 percent.“

Is this a victory for the Aspen owners or job security for their attorneys?
 

Quilter

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The article also says RC fractional sales began in Aspen.

If sales were so low that MVC held the majority of the vote, what would have happened to unsold inventory? Could it have been rented on a nightly basis on Marriott.com?
 

Sapper

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Way to go Sapper. Nice to see I'm not the only following this story . . . . as it slowly continues on.


I almost didn't post for fear of "bringing an old thread back from the dead".
 

TravelTime

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I hope Marriott gives the fractional owners a fair settlement so we MVC owners can continue to access and enjoy the Ritz. The only reason we bought MVC DC Points is to access the Ritz.
 

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Marriott Weeks and DC Points

Superchief

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You are correct, the Trust is loaded with Vail inventory. I don't believe there is any Aspen in it.

Best,

Greg
That explains why I have been able to find good availability at Vail, but very limited options at Aspen. The Vail resort is outstanding and the staff treats us lowly MVC members very well. I'm making my second trip there Labor Day.

Regarding devaluation, I think most of us will agree that virtually all timeshare values decrease and the policies change. We purchased our MVC's partially due to the option for MR points. Those are virtually worthless now.
 

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The following statement in the article is not really accurate:

'The Aspen Highlands Ritz-Carlton owners say they must pay condo association fees ranging from $12,000 to $16,000 a year, while Marriott point-holders do not. They also contend they had no influence on the affiliation with Marriott, though they were informed nearly two years before the affiliation was made official that it was being negotiated.'

MVC point owners do pay annual MF's, although they aren't as expensive. It appears the RC owners are paying about 3000-4000 per week. If traveling during ski season, I would expect the DC point cost to be over 4000 points, so that would be over $2000.
 

TravelTime

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Ski season weeks at the Ritz are super high, if you can even get one. More than 4000 points. I just joined MVC Points program and I can’t get any ski weeks at Ritz Carlton Tahoe. The cash rate for a ski week at the Ritz is about $60K a week for President’s Day week - or something outrageous like that.
 

CalGalTraveler

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Ski season weeks at the Ritz are super high, ...The cash rate for a ski week at the Ritz is about $60K a week for President’s Day week - or something outrageous like that.

If that is the case, I would simply rent my week and use the profits elsewhere.

The RC owners had an expectation of exclusivity and access. MVC owners do not.
However there is prob wording buried in the contract that enables RC to change rules.

This lawsuit may be a bellwether on post merger access to Hyatt, Vistana etc.
 

Sapper

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The following statement in the article is not really accurate:

'The Aspen Highlands Ritz-Carlton owners say they must pay condo association fees ranging from $12,000 to $16,000 a year, while Marriott point-holders do not. They also contend they had no influence on the affiliation with Marriott, though they were informed nearly two years before the affiliation was made official that it was being negotiated.'

MVC point owners do pay annual MF's, although they aren't as expensive. It appears the RC owners are paying about 3000-4000 per week. If traveling during ski season, I would expect the DC point cost to be over 4000 points, so that would be over $2000.

I read that as Marriott owners do not pay the same amount in maintenance fees, not that Marriott owners do not pay any maintenance fees. In your example, a Marriott owner pays $2k per week. A Ritz Aspen owner pays $16k per month, or $4k per week. So a Ritz Aspen owner pays $4k per week while a Marriott owner pays $2k per week. A Ritz owner pays double what a Marriott owner pays. The author would have been more accurate (and in my opinion should have said) to have said "... while Marriott point-holders do not pay the same amount.". I agree this is not what was said, but how I read the intent of the sentence.

My guess is the owners did not have any influence on the direction of the affiliation. No matter how much time they were given (cited as two years), they had no control over the direction of their ownership. My guess is this is actually the reason this lawsuit exists, lack of control. This lawsuit is the expression of the displeasure of a number of owners lack of control over the direction of their ownership. My guess is (due to the original sales price putting it out of reach of a normal person) that the original purchasers were high end attorneys, doctors with lawyer friends, business folk with lawyer friends, etc. surgeons like to cut, lawyers like to sue. Get a bunch of lawyers together who are all pissed about the direction of the properties, and lack of control, they are going to figure out how to bring a suit against the most winnable grievance. To me, this suit has less to do with the money involved (though if they get money out of the deal, then that's a bonus from their perspective), and more to do with communicating a message. What's the message? My guess based on how things look from an outside perspective, something along the lines of: management cannot treat us how they treat other timeshare properties. If management does something to us that we do not like, we will do something management does not like. In fact, to this end, the owners have already won. Even if the owners lose the suit, they have won in the sense that they have cost Marriott money to deal with this suit, they have created a distraction for the top folk at Marriott, and they have created negative publicity for Marriott. Being caught concealing evidence, twice... And sanctioned by the court for this, twice... This is a huge win for the owners in the sense that they have created the opposite of good will for Marriott.
 

TravelTime

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What Four Seasons has done is limit timeshare owners to using their two resorts in San Diego and Scottsdale. In order to stay at the more expensive fractionals in Punta Mita or Costa Rica, timeshare owners must enter the lottery. But I already knew this when I purchased FSA.

I hope that does not happen with MVC and the Ritz because I bought DC Points for access to the Ritz -although we do not have enough points for more than one week at the Ritz in low season. And availability at the Ritz is very limited.

I think the reason Ritz owners pay so much in fees is because they own many weeks at the Ritz - at least 1/12 (one month). Fractionals are 4+ weeks minimum per year. You would need to be Chairman level or above to get 4 weeks at the Ritz Carlton Residence Clubs. So in the end, if a DC Points owner only wanted to stay at the Ritz Carltons, esp in high season, the MFs would probably be about the same or maybe higher. If they are paying $12,000 - $16,000 a year in MFs, they are paying about $3000 - $4000 per week. That does not seem like a lot for a week at the Aspen Highlands, esp if they have ski weeks. Also remember the Ritz Carlton residence Clubs are mostly 3 and 4 bedroom units. The 2 bedroom units are very limited in some locations.

DC Points owners pay that much for a summer week in Hawaii at a Marriott in a 2 bedroom, more for holiday weeks. DC Points owners pay that or more for a week at the Ritz, unless you can get a low season week at the Ritz. A ski week at the Ritz in Tahoe, if you can get it, is something like 8000 - 10,000 points, and up to 22,000 points for a holiday week. The MVC point chart is deceiving for Ritz Tahoe because they only have two 2 bedroom units so you will rarely, if ever, get it.

I think what they are really complaining about is how hard it is to resell their fractionals and they are blaming MVC for the loss of value. This is silly because all timeshares (a fractional is a timeshare with more weeks) lose 75% of their value once you drive off the timeshare’s lot. They should have purchased with the intention to be lucky if any value is left, just like everyone else.
 
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vikingsholm

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What Four Seasons has done is limit timeshare owners to using their two resorts in San Diego and Scottsdale. In order to stay at the more expensive fractionals in Punta Mita or Costa Rica, timeshare owners must enter the lottery. But I already knew this when I purchased FSA.

I hope that does not happen with MVC and the Ritz because I bought DC Points for access to the Ritz -although we do not have enough points for more than one week at the Ritz in low season. And availability at the Ritz is very limited.

I think the reason Ritz owners pay so much in fees is because they own many weeks at the Ritz - at least 1/12 (one month). Fractionals are 4+ weeks minimum per year. You would need to be Chairman level or above to get 4 weeks at the Ritz Carlton Residence Clubs. So in the end, if a DC Points owner only wanted to stay at the Ritz Carltons, esp in high season, the MFs would probably be about the same or maybe higher. If they are paying $12,000 - $16,000 a year in MFs, they are paying about $3000 - $4000 per week. That does not seem like a lot for a week at the Aspen Highlands, esp if they have ski weeks. Also remember the Ritz Carlton residence Clubs are mostly 3 and 4 bedroom units. The 2 bedroom units are very limited in some locations.

DC Points owners pay that much for a summer week in Hawaii at a Marriott in a 2 bedroom, more for holiday weeks. DC Points owners pay that or more for a week at the Ritz, unless you can get a low season week at the Ritz. A ski week at the Ritz in Tahoe, if you can get it, is something like 8000 - 10,000 points, and up to 22,000 points for a holiday week. The MVC point chart is deceiving for Ritz Tahoe because they only have two 2 bedroom units so you will rarely, if ever, get it.

I think what they are really complaining about is how hard it is to resell their fractionals and they are blaming MVC for the loss of value. This is silly because all timeshares (a fractional is a timeshare with more weeks) lose 75% of their value once you drive off the timeshare’s lot. They should have purchased with the intention to be lucky if any value is left, just like everyone else.
I tend to agree that your last paragraph captures the real reason they are suing, and that it is a similar risk for other timeshare buyers. Also, that the conversion of Ritzes to a Marriott owned property is not the main cause of the price decline, though it may have played a small part. Proving that to a judge would be very interesting, IMO. It's just that they have a lot more to lose at those Ritz purchase prices, so you can see why they're not happy.

With the number of DC points the Ritz owners get, they could enroll just one of their higher value four fractional weeks and probably reserve 3-5 off peak weeks or 5-6 day stays at their own and other Ritz properties, and even more at good Marriott properties. So it's not like they're not getting the potential value in points for the fees they pay compared to Marriott only DC owners. If all the owners decide to use their weeks at Aspen, availability would be even skimpier than now for any of the Marriott DC "interlopers" who try to reserve there.

Having stayed at several of the Ritz's, but mostly in off peak seasons, I can say that we've enjoyed them, mainly because they have such nice interiors. We don't really want, need or use most of those extra little services or attention that they provide. Other Marriott properties at various locations have provided us just as good of experiences overall, often located closer to the action, for example at Tahoe, where the Ritz is removed from everything and you need to drive or shuttle to do anything outside of the property.

None of the publicity around this will affect my attitude towards using Marriott, except the one about their potentially suppressing evidence of some sort. That is not what I expect from this company, and I'd like to better understand what went on in that case. If true and meaningful, that is not acceptable behavior by Marriott. I will continue to follow this case out of curiosity though.
 

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I'm not into lawsuits but if I had spent a bunch of money buying into one of the Ritz's, I think I would be upset with MCV Timeshare Owners being able to stay at my Resort. My gut tells me that one of the reasons I would have bought was exclusivity and that with MCV Owners getting access I would have lost this.

George
 

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I hope MVC learns from this experience that they need to be careful when they incorporate other timeshare company properties into their point system programs. Although they may believe they are providing value, those who bought into the original Ritz Carlton program liked it the way it was. I'm concerned they may do the same thing to legacy MVC owners when they integrate programs from ILG. MVC has lost their transparency and it is difficult to determine whether they are meeting contractual requirements, as evidenced recently in some of their actions after the hurricanes. As they continue to get bigger, we may all lose.
 

TravelTime

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I am a bit confused about one comment above. I thought the Ritz Carlton fractional owners have been able to maintain what they bought. Was their ownership converted into points or do they still own their 1/12 fractional (4 weeks). I assume they still own the fractional because it is deeded weeks, right? So technically they have not lost anything if they still own their fractional and have the same rights to use it as before. I am guessing that there is excess Ritz Carlton Residence Club inventory and that is why MVC DC Points owners can book them. Frankly it is very expensive to book a prime week at a Ritz Carlton with DC Points. The price per point for MFs converts to more than fractional owners are paying per week, assuming they still have their deeded 4 weeks.
 

TravelTime

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BTW, I would like to see MVC add more Ritz Carlton Residence Club inventory where we can use DC Points. There are only 5 clubs now.
 

dioxide45

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I am a bit confused about one comment above. I thought the Ritz Carlton fractional owners have been able to maintain what they bought. Was their ownership converted into points or do they still own their 1/12 fractional (4 weeks). I assume they still own the fractional because it is deeded weeks, right? So technically they have not lost anything if they still own their fractional and have the same rights to use it as before. I am guessing that there is excess Ritz Carlton Residence Club inventory and that is why MVC DC Points owners can book them. Frankly it is very expensive to book a prime week at a Ritz Carlton with DC Points. The price per point for MFs converts to more than fractional owners are paying per week, assuming they still have their deeded 4 weeks.
Correct, they still own their deeded fractional weeks. I think @Sapper comments are they key. They think they bought something that shouldn't have lost value like a lowly timeshare does. They bought something better! Little did they know, they still bought a timeshare. Just a much more expensive one.
 
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