darklord700
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Never Mind.
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[ 2012 ] Fairmont / Sunchaser / Northwynd official thread with lawsuit info!
- Thread starter htusa2002
- Start date
DarkLord
TUG Member
[Post text removed at request of Original Poster. -- Makai Guy, TUG BBS Administrator]
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article here has a quote saying they fully intend to pursue the collection of fees
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...ll-pursue-fees-despite-court-ruling-1.2676315
darklord700
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[Post text removed at request of Original Poster. -- Makai Guy, TUG BBS Administrator]
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Interesting how this could play out. The Special Case Hearing presided over by Justice Loo was initiated by Northmont to obtain court approval to charge the renovation fee and the cancellation fee. Justice Loo's favourable decision was overturned by the higher Appeals Court. In other words, Northmont does not have court sanctioned authority to charge the renovation fee or the cancellation fee. But even though they did not get the court approval they sought, they continue to act as if they do have full legal authority to bill and collect the two fees. With the Appeals Court going against them, the question must now be asked whether they can legally collect those fees or whether they must be returned. According to Wankel in the CBC piece, they are going to continue to press for collection. Makes you wonder if Wankel and company are in a serious state of denial.
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cancellation forms still on Northmont website
The cancellation forms are still on the sunchaser website. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the threat to withdraw the cancellation offer by Jan 15, 2014 was the latest tactic to force people to choose and maximize the funds collection. The forms are still there on purpose, they are very good at pulling stuff from their website when they don't want it there.
They would actually prefer people to cancel rather than sign on for the reno, as part of their plan to gain free title to the entire resort eventually. They will be happy to take your money still for either program as part of the cash grab. Its all about monetizing their asset, and we are considered one of the assets to monetize aside from the buildings and land at Fairmont.
Down the road, they will make life difficult for the smaller number of timeshare owners who fund the renovation and stay in the shrinking resort, as part of forcing them out.
contact either law firm - geldert law and cox taylor and join the group in the next phase fighting this unilateral hijacking of our investment. stop throwing good money after bad.
The cancellation forms are still on the sunchaser website. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the threat to withdraw the cancellation offer by Jan 15, 2014 was the latest tactic to force people to choose and maximize the funds collection. The forms are still there on purpose, they are very good at pulling stuff from their website when they don't want it there.
They would actually prefer people to cancel rather than sign on for the reno, as part of their plan to gain free title to the entire resort eventually. They will be happy to take your money still for either program as part of the cash grab. Its all about monetizing their asset, and we are considered one of the assets to monetize aside from the buildings and land at Fairmont.
Down the road, they will make life difficult for the smaller number of timeshare owners who fund the renovation and stay in the shrinking resort, as part of forcing them out.
contact either law firm - geldert law and cox taylor and join the group in the next phase fighting this unilateral hijacking of our investment. stop throwing good money after bad.
DarkLord
TUG Member
[Post text removed at request of Original Poster. -- Makai Guy, TUG BBS Administrator]
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EvaS
newbie
what change???
I am not so enthusiast for the court ruling decision. This is just partially win situation. Owners still must pay maintenance fee for 2013 and 2014, plus they may pay the interest (not to mention lost vacation weeks for 2013). The renovation fee may be cancelled, but it will be replaced with much higher maintenance fees over next years.
I am pretty sure if owners choose cancellation, there will be still high fee, unless it is ruled out by the court (but I don't think so).
In short:
a.) if you cancel ownership, you will pay maintenance fee for 2013 and 2014, maybe interest, and probably hefty cancellation fee - same as now.
b.) if you stay, the renovation fee will be cancelled, but you still must pay maintenance fee for 2013 and 2014, next your maintenance fee will go up over years drastically, and cancellation fee will still stay high - no big deal.
The only positive outcome of this case should be cancellation of the ownership without paying anything. Personally, I don't think this is going to happen since this will equal to Northwynd bankruptcy.
Moreover, this case may take looonnggg months before ends, loosing another weeks of vacation.
I am not so enthusiast for the court ruling decision. This is just partially win situation. Owners still must pay maintenance fee for 2013 and 2014, plus they may pay the interest (not to mention lost vacation weeks for 2013). The renovation fee may be cancelled, but it will be replaced with much higher maintenance fees over next years.
I am pretty sure if owners choose cancellation, there will be still high fee, unless it is ruled out by the court (but I don't think so).
In short:
a.) if you cancel ownership, you will pay maintenance fee for 2013 and 2014, maybe interest, and probably hefty cancellation fee - same as now.
b.) if you stay, the renovation fee will be cancelled, but you still must pay maintenance fee for 2013 and 2014, next your maintenance fee will go up over years drastically, and cancellation fee will still stay high - no big deal.
The only positive outcome of this case should be cancellation of the ownership without paying anything. Personally, I don't think this is going to happen since this will equal to Northwynd bankruptcy.
Moreover, this case may take looonnggg months before ends, loosing another weeks of vacation.
DarkLord
TUG Member
[Post text removed at request of Original Poster. -- Makai Guy, TUG BBS Administrator]
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Yukoner
newbie
I agree with EvaS. This victory simply voids Justice Loo's judgement, and puts us back to square one where the validity, legality intent and enforceability of our time share agreements/leases etc are at issue.
We were in with Docken Klym for the first go round and Geldart for this one. We have enjoyed the benefits of time share ownership over the last 15 years, and in a perfect world I would like it to go back to the way it was. You pay a reasonable maintenance fee to a reputable operator and life is good. Unfortunately we have run into this nest of vipers and our simple lives got complicated.
I do know that I am prepared to spend a lot more money on legal fees before I give those crooks a penny. People need to seriously examine what constitutes a victory going forward, and I am sure that there is a wide spectrum of responses to that question. Consolidating those responses into a cohesive action plan is now our challenge.
Thanks to Jim Belfry and the others who made this little victory possible.
We were in with Docken Klym for the first go round and Geldart for this one. We have enjoyed the benefits of time share ownership over the last 15 years, and in a perfect world I would like it to go back to the way it was. You pay a reasonable maintenance fee to a reputable operator and life is good. Unfortunately we have run into this nest of vipers and our simple lives got complicated.
I do know that I am prepared to spend a lot more money on legal fees before I give those crooks a penny. People need to seriously examine what constitutes a victory going forward, and I am sure that there is a wide spectrum of responses to that question. Consolidating those responses into a cohesive action plan is now our challenge.
Thanks to Jim Belfry and the others who made this little victory possible.
EvaS
newbie
Basically, the court have decided that the renovation and cancellation fees are not right. That's all. The court haven't mention what to do with the interest fees, lost vacation weeks, or maintenance fees.
The court also omitted actions to be done on Northwynd in order to satisfy owners. What about people who already paid??? In other words, Northwynd can do whatever they like with exception to charging for the renovation and cancellation fees. This is very weak.
For example, Northwynd can proceed some kind of cancellation administration fees (lower than now, but still they will collect a lot of money), or in the worst case scenario they can still charge hefty interest fees. Let's say if that case will take one more year to proceed, yak... we will lose another year of vacation weeks; and probably pay really high interest rates (higher than cancellation fees now). Not to mention lawyers fees.
I don't think the court will rule out not to pay the maintenance fees. The rest is still unknown. This is still unclear.
The court also omitted actions to be done on Northwynd in order to satisfy owners. What about people who already paid??? In other words, Northwynd can do whatever they like with exception to charging for the renovation and cancellation fees. This is very weak.
For example, Northwynd can proceed some kind of cancellation administration fees (lower than now, but still they will collect a lot of money), or in the worst case scenario they can still charge hefty interest fees. Let's say if that case will take one more year to proceed, yak... we will lose another year of vacation weeks; and probably pay really high interest rates (higher than cancellation fees now). Not to mention lawyers fees.
I don't think the court will rule out not to pay the maintenance fees. The rest is still unknown. This is still unclear.
DarkLord
TUG Member
It is right that the appeal court's decision is narrowed but its application could have widespread effect.
If Northwynd goes against this decision and keep the reno fee they collected so far, we could argue that it is illegal and thus lead to breach of contract.
In civil dispute like this one, it is unlikely the court is going to lay out a plan for either side to proceed. They often just decide on narrow issues like reno fee or not.
If you think this is small victory, think what could have happened if the appeal court had sided with Northwynd.
EvaS
newbie
DarkLord, think deeper.... the court is still on Northwynd side. There was no court order on anything in the court outcome.
Now, in order to win this case we need to hire lawyer who will fight with Northwynd to:
a. cancel all fees and got out of the timeshares (low probability)
or
b. cancel the interest on non-paid maintenance fees
c. get us back lost vacation weeks
If we don't proceed on points a. and b./c. we lost.
If we proceed on points a. and b./c., we can win or partially win, but lawyers fees will be high.
This is why the court decision is not really on our side. This is very tricky.
DarkLord
TUG Member
I agreed with you that the fight is not over. I've recruited 5 investors I know of to join the appeal and I'll recruite more if I could to sue Northwynd down the road.
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I'll go with this being an important win, but it doesn't address all the issues. With Justice Loo's puzzling decision in their back pocket, Northmont had almost unrestricted access to our bank accounts. Now they don't. That's a win.
Northmont petitioned the court to give them authority to charge owners with the renovation project fee and the cancellation fee. They sought court approval for a reason, and that's because of the uncertainty that they could charge the two fees legally. They now don't have the backing of the court to charge the fees. That's a win.
The Appeal Court judges recognized that the owners should have the right to present and argue evidence for the enforceability of the Agreements without restrictions imposed by the nature of the Special Case. The appeal ruling provides a clear path for the timeshare owners to take whatever legal action they deem is appropriate, for example, class action to have the Agreements invalidated and sue for damages. That's progress.
Northmont petitioned the court to give them authority to charge owners with the renovation project fee and the cancellation fee. They sought court approval for a reason, and that's because of the uncertainty that they could charge the two fees legally. They now don't have the backing of the court to charge the fees. That's a win.
The Appeal Court judges recognized that the owners should have the right to present and argue evidence for the enforceability of the Agreements without restrictions imposed by the nature of the Special Case. The appeal ruling provides a clear path for the timeshare owners to take whatever legal action they deem is appropriate, for example, class action to have the Agreements invalidated and sue for damages. That's progress.
gnorth16
TUG Member
I said it before, Scamwynd want the property for themselves. How many interests do they have and do they contain voting rights? Could they essentially take over the vote and subdivide 2 or 3 buildings and land and sell as condos?
Side note... IMO, the new exterior colour scheme is horrible...
Side note... IMO, the new exterior colour scheme is horrible...
Timeshare Cold
newbie
email from Northwynd re: Court of Appeal
I thought this paragraph from the email of "Northwynd Customer Care" regarding the outcome of the appeal to be very interesting. First of all, I don't know where the care in "Customer Care" comes from! The paragraph is:
"The Appeal affects each Owner to varying degrees.
Cancelled Owners: The Judgment has no effect on cancelled Owners. We have noted throughout the process that the cancellation option is the only option that provides Owners future certainty. We continue to believe it is the
most cost effective option for those whose primary objective is certainty rather than future Resort use."
By sending their unsigned email, and this paragraph in particular, it shows that Northwynd certainly doesn't express any hope for future vacation use of the Villas. Yes, it says those who have paid the cancellation fee, have "future certainty" and it seems that is what they would like most of us to do. More money for them to do as they please. What about those who paid the renovation fee and how many more times will they be asked to pay those fees and how high will the maintenance fees go.
Yes it seemed good at the beginning but our dream has gone to those who have no moral values.
We joined one of the law firms last year and have not thought twice about that decision. We have filled out the survey and are ready for the next round.
Bring it on!
I thought this paragraph from the email of "Northwynd Customer Care" regarding the outcome of the appeal to be very interesting. First of all, I don't know where the care in "Customer Care" comes from! The paragraph is:
"The Appeal affects each Owner to varying degrees.
Cancelled Owners: The Judgment has no effect on cancelled Owners. We have noted throughout the process that the cancellation option is the only option that provides Owners future certainty. We continue to believe it is the
most cost effective option for those whose primary objective is certainty rather than future Resort use."
By sending their unsigned email, and this paragraph in particular, it shows that Northwynd certainly doesn't express any hope for future vacation use of the Villas. Yes, it says those who have paid the cancellation fee, have "future certainty" and it seems that is what they would like most of us to do. More money for them to do as they please. What about those who paid the renovation fee and how many more times will they be asked to pay those fees and how high will the maintenance fees go.
Yes it seemed good at the beginning but our dream has gone to those who have no moral values.
We joined one of the law firms last year and have not thought twice about that decision. We have filled out the survey and are ready for the next round.
Bring it on!
Dwindling Resort
Perhaps I should say swindling resort
We spent the last week ( week 23 ) in Fairmont in a rented unit and spent a lot of our time besides golfing touring the resort at various times and speaking to as many people staying at the resort, working at the resort and in the various stores in the valley. What we have to report is that most of whom we spoke with are completely unaware of what is actually going with us investors as MG describes us most aptly. We went out of our way to speak with staff, guests and store staff. The front desk and administrative staff are very cordial as we have experienced in the past , but not one familiar face was present which we noted as there have been a lot of familiar staff in our past visits over the last 17 years. They also said the low because it was low season and kids were still in school. Poppycock. We have been out in June for the last 17 years and often had a difficult time finding nearby parking to our units as the place was bulging at the seams. Not this year. Staff in the grocery outlets indicate their volumes are down considerably and some other specialized businesses are closed. Staff in the grounds force asked us why people were not coming here anymore. Our answer was perhaps the people in Calgary were the reason for the lack of guests. Nor is there is not a problem at booking tee times because of the lack of guests at the resort.
Lets look at the numbers
Riverside 8 buildings with 80 Lock off units = 160 available units built 1990-1995
Hillside 8 buildings with 96 Lock off units = 192 available units plus 20 terrace units built 1995 -2002
Riverview 1 building with 32 Lock of units= 64 available units built in 2004
If they were at full capacity and all buildings were habitable they could have 436 units full.
As it stands the 300 & 400 buildings are not as close as they say to being ready in two weeks time so they are not available so that remove 40 available units from Riverside.
The 1000 building in Hillside is boarded up from the inside and is not in use and we were unable to get an answer from any staff other than I didn't know that. So that removes another 28 units from their capacity.
Leaving a total capacity 436 (-40 and - 24) = 372 available units for time share investors to utilize.
Our several tours of the resort during the week revealed a maximum count of 61 vehicles and a low of 45 and other counts in between. We eliminated apparent work vehicles in the Riverside area as they didn't appear to be paying guests.
The 7000 building appears to be utilized as a staff housing area as we saw nothing but staff going in and out at various times.
What is their real usage rate .
With 372 units available to investors and assuming 1 vehicle only per unit and with 61 vehicles maximum they are at less than 20% capacity.
What is even more interesting is that we spoke with every guest we could and asked if they where an owner and we never met any one who was as they had either rented or traded through RCI and were astounded by what was happening.
Needless to say they cannot sustain this resort based on such low occupancy rates. That is why they keep hounding us for money cause they aren't getting much of it from the other guests
We also toured the show suite in Riverside 803 A & B. Hardwood through out with exception of A's bedroom which is carpeted, all new modern dark furniture, dark cupboards ceramic top stoves, apartment style fridge w/o icemaker and guess what two full bathrooms in the A unit. While that may be nice we have never needed that in all the years we stayed there. However we will miss the Jacuzzi tub that has been replaced with a soaker tub. B unit also has a full kitchen with stove and fridge same dark colours.
That is why we to-day have committed to pursuing the case on the breach of our contract with Geldhart Law and we encourage all of you to do the same and see if we cannot recruit more to thwart these swindlers
Perhaps I should say swindling resort
We spent the last week ( week 23 ) in Fairmont in a rented unit and spent a lot of our time besides golfing touring the resort at various times and speaking to as many people staying at the resort, working at the resort and in the various stores in the valley. What we have to report is that most of whom we spoke with are completely unaware of what is actually going with us investors as MG describes us most aptly. We went out of our way to speak with staff, guests and store staff. The front desk and administrative staff are very cordial as we have experienced in the past , but not one familiar face was present which we noted as there have been a lot of familiar staff in our past visits over the last 17 years. They also said the low because it was low season and kids were still in school. Poppycock. We have been out in June for the last 17 years and often had a difficult time finding nearby parking to our units as the place was bulging at the seams. Not this year. Staff in the grocery outlets indicate their volumes are down considerably and some other specialized businesses are closed. Staff in the grounds force asked us why people were not coming here anymore. Our answer was perhaps the people in Calgary were the reason for the lack of guests. Nor is there is not a problem at booking tee times because of the lack of guests at the resort.
Lets look at the numbers
Riverside 8 buildings with 80 Lock off units = 160 available units built 1990-1995
Hillside 8 buildings with 96 Lock off units = 192 available units plus 20 terrace units built 1995 -2002
Riverview 1 building with 32 Lock of units= 64 available units built in 2004
If they were at full capacity and all buildings were habitable they could have 436 units full.
As it stands the 300 & 400 buildings are not as close as they say to being ready in two weeks time so they are not available so that remove 40 available units from Riverside.
The 1000 building in Hillside is boarded up from the inside and is not in use and we were unable to get an answer from any staff other than I didn't know that. So that removes another 28 units from their capacity.
Leaving a total capacity 436 (-40 and - 24) = 372 available units for time share investors to utilize.
Our several tours of the resort during the week revealed a maximum count of 61 vehicles and a low of 45 and other counts in between. We eliminated apparent work vehicles in the Riverside area as they didn't appear to be paying guests.
The 7000 building appears to be utilized as a staff housing area as we saw nothing but staff going in and out at various times.
What is their real usage rate .
With 372 units available to investors and assuming 1 vehicle only per unit and with 61 vehicles maximum they are at less than 20% capacity.
What is even more interesting is that we spoke with every guest we could and asked if they where an owner and we never met any one who was as they had either rented or traded through RCI and were astounded by what was happening.
Needless to say they cannot sustain this resort based on such low occupancy rates. That is why they keep hounding us for money cause they aren't getting much of it from the other guests
We also toured the show suite in Riverside 803 A & B. Hardwood through out with exception of A's bedroom which is carpeted, all new modern dark furniture, dark cupboards ceramic top stoves, apartment style fridge w/o icemaker and guess what two full bathrooms in the A unit. While that may be nice we have never needed that in all the years we stayed there. However we will miss the Jacuzzi tub that has been replaced with a soaker tub. B unit also has a full kitchen with stove and fridge same dark colours.
That is why we to-day have committed to pursuing the case on the breach of our contract with Geldhart Law and we encourage all of you to do the same and see if we cannot recruit more to thwart these swindlers
ERW
newbie
The way I read the decision is that neither side has really won or lost, it is all back to square one. Northmont was wanting approval from the court that they could charge the renovation/cancellation fee. Justice Loo gave that approval. The Appeals Court has simply reversed that decision and stated that a full fledged trial will need to take place to settle the matter. That can get very costly. Northmont will likely just sit back and wait for the leasees/owners to sue. In the meantime the Appeals Court decision does not say that the reno fee/cancellation fee is right or wrong - it is simply saying the original decision was incorrect.
Northmont will simply go ahead with their plan to charge the reno/cancellation fee as well as the collections proceedings until someone sues. Then the whole process will start over and will take much longer than the original legal challenge.
Unfortunately, the winners as usual are the lawyers.
Northmont will simply go ahead with their plan to charge the reno/cancellation fee as well as the collections proceedings until someone sues. Then the whole process will start over and will take much longer than the original legal challenge.
Unfortunately, the winners as usual are the lawyers.
Spark1
newbie
Northwynd should of waited to collect the cancellation or the Reno fees after the appeal,not before the appeal. This cancellation and renovation was a big deal because Northwynd illegally collected millions because of justice loos decision.If we are back to square one then all this money should be paid back to the timeshare owners. Many would not of paid this if justice loo would not of used the special case to rule in Northwynd's favour. Fore the timeshare owners who paid either the cancellation or the renovation fees because you felt we lost the special case contact Geldert Law.
jekebc
newbie
A very good summary of our case at this link:
http://insidethegate.com/2014/06/su...rning-november-15-2013-judgment-against-them/
Please make sure other timeshare investors you may know are made aware of this article.
We have collected a lot of evidence that Northmont and their associates have breached fundamental terms of the timeshare contracts. It is time to commence our action against them, including a claim for damages for loss of our timeshare value as a result of mismanagement of the Resort. They have improperly collected millions of dollars in cancellation fees, excess fees for property management, and payments for services not were not contracted through a proper value for money approach. Even if the cash disappears, there is the underlying value of the real estate which is lienable to secure our claims.
I also suggest you review the 2013 financial statements, including the management comments that are posted on the website. That should give you plenty of warning that the Resort is in serious financial trouble.
http://insidethegate.com/2014/06/su...rning-november-15-2013-judgment-against-them/
Please make sure other timeshare investors you may know are made aware of this article.
We have collected a lot of evidence that Northmont and their associates have breached fundamental terms of the timeshare contracts. It is time to commence our action against them, including a claim for damages for loss of our timeshare value as a result of mismanagement of the Resort. They have improperly collected millions of dollars in cancellation fees, excess fees for property management, and payments for services not were not contracted through a proper value for money approach. Even if the cash disappears, there is the underlying value of the real estate which is lienable to secure our claims.
I also suggest you review the 2013 financial statements, including the management comments that are posted on the website. That should give you plenty of warning that the Resort is in serious financial trouble.
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DarkLord
TUG Member
[Post text removed at request of Original Poster. -- Makai Guy, TUG BBS Administrator]
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fairmontlvr
newbie
Moving forward
I am glad to have joined the fight against Northwynd. Yes this is just the first win and there will be a bigger battle ahead.
I did not pay the renovation fee nor the cancellation fee, yet last year I did pay my Maintenance fee and used my week that I own in the summer. In light of the favorable ruling handed down for us that have chosen to fight this I am wondering where we stand for this year? Could we not argue to utilize our timeshare again this year if we were to pay this years' Maintenance fee and Maintenance fee only? Yes I understand that since we did not pay up by the usual deadline that they would tack on interest on the unpaid Maintenance fee.
Thoughts?
I am glad to have joined the fight against Northwynd. Yes this is just the first win and there will be a bigger battle ahead.
I did not pay the renovation fee nor the cancellation fee, yet last year I did pay my Maintenance fee and used my week that I own in the summer. In light of the favorable ruling handed down for us that have chosen to fight this I am wondering where we stand for this year? Could we not argue to utilize our timeshare again this year if we were to pay this years' Maintenance fee and Maintenance fee only? Yes I understand that since we did not pay up by the usual deadline that they would tack on interest on the unpaid Maintenance fee.
Thoughts?
DarkLord
TUG Member
If you want to use the week, renting from Interval or RCI is cheaper than the MF even in the summer weeks.
SentimentalLady
newbie
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We also paid our maintenance fee for 2013.....in 2012, when we booked for the following year. But remember what Sunchaser/Northmont/Northwynd did? They came up with a plan where we suddenly owed another $5000 and said if we didn't CHOOSE and PAY before May 31, we could be denied our booking.
We couldn't risk a week off work and two days travel and accommodation each way - only to arrive and be turned away. Never mind the equivalent cost and disappointment for our guests we were to meet there.
Would you seriously trust them to honour your booking?