Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[dioxide45]

What do you base your assertions on? You say everything you have read, but provide no authority or even scholarly articles.

Aren't we all making some assertions though without authority or scholars articles? You stated "Federal bankruptcy law overrules many state laws. It's entire purpose is to shortcut laws." without providing sources of how this applies to state real estate statutory requirements.

I know you want to dismiss the information linked in post #2,786 because of how it was sourced, but even after many follow-up questions, it still points back to things like this.

1. Bankruptcy Court’s Power​

• Under Chapter 11, a debtor (including an HOA or condominium association that owns property or owes debts) can propose a reorganization plan.
• The court can approve modifications to contracts, leases, and other agreements the debtor is party to under 11 U.S.C. § 363 (sale of property) and § 1123(b)(6) (modification of executory contracts).

So if the condo association itself is the debtor, the court may allow changes to the association’s internal rules or governance documents as part of restructuring.

2. Limits – State Law Cannot Be Overridden​

• State condominium statutes (e.g., Florida Statutes §§ 718.117–718.121) set rules for how the supermajority vote to terminate works.
• A bankruptcy court cannot ignore the statutory requirement (e.g., that 80% of owners must approve). Any plan that tried to force termination over state-law requirements would likely be challenged.
• Courts have recognized that bankruptcy cannot create property rights that don’t exist: see In re Sweetwater, 57 B.R. 743 (D. Utah 1985).

We also have to remember that the association, for the most part, doesn't actually own anything from the standpoint of real estate. That is all divied up in multiple deeds owned by the interval onwers.


In Florida, the Homeowners Association (HOA) or Condominium Association and the condominium or timeshare units themselves are separate legal entities. Here’s the breakdown:

1. Condominium/Timeshare​

• A condominium or timeshare project is established under Florida Statutes Chapter 718 (condominiums) or Chapter 721 (timeshares).
• The condominium consists of:
  
  • Unit owners (who own fee simple or interval interests in individual units)
  • Common elements (lobbies, pools, landscaping), which are owned collectively by all unit owners as tenants in common.

2. HOA / Condominium Association​

• The Association is a corporation (usually nonprofit) created under state law to manage the common elements and enforce governing documents (CC&Rs, Bylaws, Rules).
• It can:
  
  • Levy and collect assessments from owners.
  • Enter contracts (maintenance, management, insurance).
  • File lawsuits on behalf of the association.
• But importantly, the association itself does not own the individual units unless it acquired them through foreclosure or otherwise.

It is completely possible that the AI is hallucinating these things due to an absence of a lot of court precedent. Since no one has come forward to provide an actual situation where an HOA has used bankruptcy to dissolve a timeshare regime, we will just have to really assume that this hasn't been tried before.

I suspect, as you mentioned in a prior post, that this will require a further vote by the ownership. I'm not sure if the court can allow the association to amend the by-laws to allow for a lower threshold of supermajority of owners to vote to dissolve the timeshare regime.

 

[CO skier]

We also have to remember that the association, for the most part, doesn't actually own anything from the standpoint of real estate. That is all divied up in multiple deeds owned by the interval onwers.

I do not know how "The Plan" could be stated more clearly.

We can debate "The Plan" viability for another 3,000 circular posts and be back to exactly where this thread is at the moment.

Seems pointless.

 

[Jan M.]

Golden Strand resort bought by "Trump group"

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2014/01/27/the-trump-group-affiliate-buys-sunny.html not sure what this means for owners...hopefully good things!

tugbbs.com

Read post #11

 

[dioxide45]

Golden Strand resort bought by "Trump group"

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2014/01/27/the-trump-group-affiliate-buys-sunny.html not sure what this means for owners...hopefully good things!

tugbbs.com

Read post #11

It looks like the lead article is behind a paywall, but further research seems to indicate that the group that bought the development still went through the process of terminating the condominium plan with the required 80% super majority approval of owners. Perhaps after they acquired the units, they had enough control to do so.

I am not sure this fits the current scenario exactly unless through CWA swaps, Wyndham or some other entity then controls a super majority in order to go through with the termination of the timeshare regime. I think one issue with OIRC is that its condo declarations require a 100% super majority vote.

We may also be forgetting about defaulted intervals where the owners are not engaged, owners are dead or there is clouded chain of title. These may require foreclosure or quiet title, but those are probably a relativly easy barrier to overcome.

 

[comicbookman]

Aren't we all making some assertions though without authority or scholars articles? You stated "Federal bankruptcy law overrules many state laws. It's entire purpose is to shortcut laws." without providing sources of how this applies to state real estate statutory requirements.

I know you want to dismiss the information linked in post #2,786 because of how it was sourced, but even after many follow-up questions, it still points back to things like this.

1. Bankruptcy Court’s Power​

• Under Chapter 11, a debtor (including an HOA or condominium association that owns property or owes debts) can propose a reorganization plan.
• The court can approve modifications to contracts, leases, and other agreements the debtor is party to under 11 U.S.C. § 363 (sale of property) and § 1123(b)(6) (modification of executory contracts).

So if the condo association itself is the debtor, the court may allow changes to the association’s internal rules or governance documents as part of restructuring.

2. Limits – State Law Cannot Be Overridden​

• State condominium statutes (e.g., Florida Statutes §§ 718.117–718.121) set rules for how the supermajority vote to terminate works.
• A bankruptcy court cannot ignore the statutory requirement (e.g., that 80% of owners must approve). Any plan that tried to force termination over state-law requirements would likely be challenged.
• Courts have recognized that bankruptcy cannot create property rights that don’t exist: see In re Sweetwater, 57 B.R. 743 (D. Utah 1985).

We also have to remember that the association, for the most part, doesn't actually own anything from the standpoint of real estate. That is all divied up in multiple deeds owned by the interval onwers.


In Florida, the Homeowners Association (HOA) or Condominium Association and the condominium or timeshare units themselves are separate legal entities. Here’s the breakdown:

1. Condominium/Timeshare​

• A condominium or timeshare project is established under Florida Statutes Chapter 718 (condominiums) or Chapter 721 (timeshares).
• The condominium consists of:
  
  • Unit owners (who own fee simple or interval interests in individual units)
  • Common elements (lobbies, pools, landscaping), which are owned collectively by all unit owners as tenants in common.

2. HOA / Condominium Association​

• The Association is a corporation (usually nonprofit) created under state law to manage the common elements and enforce governing documents (CC&Rs, Bylaws, Rules).
• It can:
  
  • Levy and collect assessments from owners.
  • Enter contracts (maintenance, management, insurance).
  • File lawsuits on behalf of the association.
• But importantly, the association itself does not own the individual units unless it acquired them through foreclosure or otherwise.

It is completely possible that the AI is hallucinating these things due to an absence of a lot of court precedent. Since no one has come forward to provide an actual situation where an HOA has used bankruptcy to dissolve a timeshare regime, we will just have to really assume that this hasn't been tried before.

I suspect, as you mentioned in a prior post, that this will require a further vote by the ownership. I'm not sure if the court can allow the association to amend the by-laws to allow for a lower threshold of supermajority of owners to vote to dissolve the timeshare regime.

So, nothing you have sited, other than unsupported assertions, contradicts what I said. The argument is circular because that is how you have argued. Given the high stakes and the fact that the bankruptcy plan is being used at multiple resorts, I expect Wyndham lawyers know what they are doing.

 

[gelinasrj]

Does anyone know what is happening with Newport Overlook and Wyndham Bay Voyage? They seem to be the only two that have not been fully confirmed. Also, can any fixed week owner at a resort that is in the shutdown process share what is being offered?

 

[bamasteve]

Still curious if the Patriot's Place BOD meeting actually occurred on Monday and what came of it. I've searched the web and no mention of it. Also no word from the HOA on disposition of property.

Anyone have news?

 

[bnoble]

How much of the oxygen in this thread is being consumed by one person "just asking questions"?

Y'all can keep arguing with him if you want, but I'm putting him on ignore for a week or two. Hopefully he will run out of steam between now and then.

 

[Roger830]

How much of the oxygen in this thread is being consumed by one person "just asking questions"?

Y'all can keep arguing with him if you want, but I'm putting him on ignore for a week or two. Hopefully he will run out of steam between now and then.

I don't know who you are referring to but it seems to me that over 95% of the posts on this thread should be ignored including some of mine.

 

[dioxide45]

How much of the oxygen in this thread is being consumed by one person "just asking questions"?

Y'all can keep arguing with him if you want, but I'm putting him on ignore for a week or two. Hopefully he will run out of steam between now and then.

Wow! I'm sorry that my questions are annoying you. I never thought there was something wrong with asking questions. I guess I was wrong and should be shunned. It is well within your right to not respond, which you also did wasted oxygen on too. Isn't asking questions the point of the thread and the forums? The problem, I've learned, is that no one really knows the answers and most people are just making up answers off the top of their head. Some might say I am doing the same, which could be true. As noted previously, it is really a circular question since there are no answers other than the wise attorneys and overlords at Wyndham know what they are doing.

If a court can force a timeshare owner to lose their deeded rights because the association files for bankruptcy, it means the same is true in residential real estate. If I own a $300,000 condo and the association files for bankruptcy the court can then force me to liquidate my deed? This seems to be the crux behind the KBV issues. Private property rights are the cornerstone of society. I point back to the Westgate situation in Orlando.

So, nothing you have sited, other than unsupported assertions, contradicts what I said. The argument is circular because that is how you have argued. Given the high stakes and the fact that the bankruptcy plan is being used at multiple resorts, I expect Wyndham lawyers know what they are doing.

The fact remains that Chapter 11 is for reorganization, wouldn't that lead us to expect the HOAs will survive after bankruptcy? It they don't, isn't that insolvency or liquidation. If that was the plan, wouldn't they go Chapter 7? Their attorneys may know what they are doing or we don't know their full plan and Chapter 11 is just the start.

I don't know who you are referring to but it seems to me that over 95% of the posts on this thread should be ignored including some of mine.

He is referring to me. My questions aren't worthy of replies. This attitude seems to prevail here in the Wyndham forum. It is the only forum on TUG where I see so much animosity between posters. I would suspect that more people in this forum have others on ignore than any other forum on TUG.

 

[comicbookman]

Wow! I'm sorry that my questions are annoying you. I never thought there was something wrong with asking questions. I guess I was wrong and should be shunned. It is well within your right to not respond, which you also did wasted oxygen on too. Isn't asking questions the point of the thread and the forums? The problem, I've learned, is that no one really knows the answers and most people are just making up answers off the top of their head. Some might say I am doing the same, which could be true. As noted previously, it is really a circular question since there are no answers other than the wise attorneys and overlords at Wyndham know what they are doing.

If a court can force a timeshare owner to lose their deeded rights because the association files for bankruptcy, it means the same is true in residential real estate. If I own a $300,000 condo and the association files for bankruptcy the court can then force me to liquidate my deed? This seems to be the crux behind the KBV issues. Private property rights are the cornerstone of society. I point back to the Westgate situation in Orlando.

The fact remains that Chapter 11 is for reorganization, wouldn't that lead us to expect the HOAs will survive after bankruptcy? It they don't, isn't that insolvency or liquidation. If that was the plan, wouldn't they go Chapter 7? Their attorneys may know what they are doing or we don't know their full plan and Chapter 11 is just the start.

He is referring to me. My questions aren't worthy of replies. This attitude seems to prevail here in the Wyndham forum. It is the only forum on TUG where I see so much animosity between posters. I would suspect that more people in this forum have others on ignore than any other forum on TUG.

Chapter 11 often leads to a sale. The bankruptcy process is used to make the company, association or whatever, more attractive to sellers. This comment by you makes it clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. So, keep asking questions, that is good, but I suggest you stop making assertions and comparing apples to oranges

 

[paxsarah]

Also, can any fixed week owner at a resort that is in the shutdown process share what is being offered?

I haven’t heard anything yet about an actual offer from Wyndham, but I bet @chapjim will be among the first to let us know, since OIRC was the first resort to complete its vote.

 

[dioxide45]

Chapter 12 often leads to a sale. The bankruptcy process is used to make the company, association or whatever, more attractive to sellers.

Chapter 12? are they farmers or fishermen? What are you talking about?

As for attractiveness, I think you mean attractive to buyers? So the goal is to sell the association, not the deeds? That seems to line up with what I am talking about. That would still leave the timeshare regime in place. That seems to be what happened with Golden Strand noted above.

So, keep asking questions, that is good, but I suggest you stop making assertions and comparing apples to oranges

You keep saying this, but you are not coming back with anything of substance other than more assertions.

 

[bobbiek]

Patriots Place zoom meeting just concluded with the majority vote for bankruptcy. Wyndham owned 67%.

 

[Armada]

It looks like the lead article is behind a paywall, but further research seems to indicate that the group that bought the development still went through the process of terminating the condominium plan with the required 80% super majority approval of owners. Perhaps after they acquired the units, they had enough control to do so.

I am not sure this fits the current scenario exactly unless through CWA swaps, Wyndham or some other entity then controls a super majority in order to go through with the termination of the timeshare regime. I think one issue with OIRC is that its condo declarations require a 100% super majority vote.

We may also be forgetting about defaulted intervals where the owners are not engaged, owners are dead or there is clouded chain of title. These may require foreclosure or quiet title, but those are probably a relativly easy barrier to overcome.

Believe this is referring to the 'other' Trump family. They are from South Africa. Don't think there will be any gilt and marble.......

 

[HitchHiker71]

I am just wondering if the Chapter 11 filing isn't a means for some other ends. Do we even know that the guidance of the law firm is that the chapter 11 is the sole method to be used to actually sell the underlying real estate? Have any of the communications to owners actually specified that? It does't seem like this method has been attempted yet and there is a small cottage industry set up around helping timeshares collapse the timeshare/condominium scheme. No one has tried this method before. There must be a reason.

Chapter 11 is just to reorganize (as other's here have put it). A sale would seem to indicate liquidation and they should be Chapter 7.

IME Chapter 7 generally requires liabilities to exceed assets/income. This isn’t the case for most of the resorts in scope. Chapter 11 is therefore being used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dioxide45]

Believe this is referring to the 'other' Trump family. They are from South Africa. Don't think there will be any gilt and marble.......

I suspect you're right, but that wasn't even a point of contention in the discussion.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Perhaps it would be better for you to find a source where it indicates someone has used Chapter 11 to facilitate the sale of a timeshare property. Finding one that has happened should be easier than proving that none has ever happened. I haven't found one yet. Perhaps you know of some?

Also, no one has yet to explain how they plan to circumvent state mandated requirements under real estate law to collapse the timeshare/condo regime to achieve a free and clear sale.

Given Wyndham holds a majority vote for both the HOA BODs and the interval votes, I think what you are arguing is irrelevant. Whatever vote is required for termination, whenever that transpires, will pass without issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dioxide45]

Given Wyndham holds a majority vote for both the HOA BODs and the interval votes, I think what you are arguing is irrelevant. Whatever vote is required for termination, whenever that transpires, will pass without issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not sure that is the case. At least not for Florida condos. Florida Statutes §718.117 requires a minimum of 80% vote to terminate unless a higher standard is in place within the condominium declarations. Based on some of the prior posts, one on this page, they controlled about 65% of some of these properties. I don't really know what it is for Star Island and Orlando International but I suspect probably below the 80%. I think their main concern was getting to those super majorities. It isn't a super majority based on owners who vote, it is based on all owners. Too many people don't vote and it makes for a very hard threshold to meet. Thus they couldn't hold votes to terminate at the outset.

I know some are annoyed by my questions,,that they may not have the answers to, but I like reading up and learning about what is going on under the hood to make this all happen. I don't disagree that the end-game isn't going to be the same result. I just don't think the path being taken is what everyone is seeing at face value. I think the purpose of Chapter 11 is more or less to protect the association while they either take over deeds or to better facilitate CWA swaps and perhaps also avoid litigation from other co-located HOAs. The purpose of the CWA swap is to probably get Wyndham more voting control so they can then vote to terminate. The courts won't force termination because they can't. I don't disagree that it won't work, they just have to use a different path to get the same result because they currently are not able meet the required thresholds to terminate the condominiums.

As for Orlando International, this will be interesting and is somewhat like the case of Westgate Resorts where the widow that refused to sell her condo so Westgate could expand Westgate Lakes. From what I can tell, that condo probably required a 100% vote to terminate. Westgate wasn't able to get fully cleared title to build and failed to disclose when filing for permits that they didn't own all the deeds to the condominium complex. While Florida Statutes §718.117 requires a minimum of 80% vote to terminate, the statutes do allow for a condominium to have a higher threshold like Orlando International apparently has. Thus why Westgate Resorts tore down that entire condominium complex except for the one unit she owned. If I owned at Orlando International, I might be inclined to try and hold out. Westgate Resorts paid that widow $1.5 million for her condo. By comparison, one week could be worth $30,000.

I fully appreciate that not everyone cares about the nuances of the process or discussion. They can skip over my posts or put me on ignore as @bnoble suggested. It doesn't hurt my feelings any.

 

[susieq]

Does anyone know what is happening with Newport Overlook and Wyndham Bay Voyage? They seem to be the only two that have not been fully confirmed. Also, can any fixed week owner at a resort that is in the shutdown process share what is being offered?

This is what I am closely watching/reading for also. Our floating week is a deeded July/August week at The Bay Voyage. Haven't received any communication as of yet. Don't know if there will be any other compensation offered besides a share of the profit ~ however small that might be. Even if there are CWA points put on the table, we would definitely not be interested. We've owned for nearly 40 years, had some great stays/exchanges, no regrets.

 

[jp10558]

Wow! I'm sorry that my questions are annoying you. I never thought there was something wrong with asking questions. I guess I was wrong and should be shunned. It is well within your right to not respond, which you also did wasted oxygen on too. Isn't asking questions the point of the thread and the forums? The problem, I've learned, is that no one really knows the answers and most people are just making up answers off the top of their head. Some might say I am doing the same, which could be true. As noted previously, it is really a circular question since there are no answers other than the wise attorneys and overlords at Wyndham know what they are doing.

If a court can force a timeshare owner to lose their deeded rights because the association files for bankruptcy, it means the same is true in residential real estate. If I own a $300,000 condo and the association files for bankruptcy the court can then force me to liquidate my deed? This seems to be the crux behind the KBV issues. Private property rights are the cornerstone of society. I point back to the Westgate situation in Orlando.

The fact remains that Chapter 11 is for reorganization, wouldn't that lead us to expect the HOAs will survive after bankruptcy? It they don't, isn't that insolvency or liquidation. If that was the plan, wouldn't they go Chapter 7? Their attorneys may know what they are doing or we don't know their full plan and Chapter 11 is just the start.

He is referring to me. My questions aren't worthy of replies. This attitude seems to prevail here in the Wyndham forum. It is the only forum on TUG where I see so much animosity between posters. I would suspect that more people in this forum have others on ignore than any other forum on TUG.

I think the takeaway here is there's obviously more to this plan than just Chapter 11. What it is remains a secret.

 

[jp10558]

I am not sure that is the case. At least not for Florida condos. Florida Statutes §718.117 requires a minimum of 80% vote to terminate unless a higher standard is in place within the condominium declarations. Based on some of the prior posts, one on this page, they controlled about 65% of some of these properties. I don't really know what it is for Star Island and Orlando International but I suspect probably below the 80%. I think their main concern was getting to those super majorities. It isn't a super majority based on owners who vote, it is based on all owners. Too many people don't vote and it makes for a very hard threshold to meet. Thus they couldn't hold votes to terminate at the outset.

As for Orlando International, this will be interesting and is somewhat like the case of Westgate Resorts where the widow that refused to sell her condo so Westgate could expand Westgate Lakes. From what I can tell, that condo probably required a 100% vote to terminate. Westgate wasn't able to get fully cleared title to build and failed to disclose when filing for permits that they didn't own all the deeds to the condominium complex. While Florida Statutes §718.117 requires a minimum of 80% vote to terminate, the statutes do allow for a condominium to have a higher threshold like Orlando International apparently has. Thus why Westgate Resorts tore down that entire condominium complex except for the one unit she owned. If I owned at Orlando International, I might be inclined to try and hold out. Westgate Resorts paid that widow $1.5 million for her condo. By comparison, one week could be worth $30,000.

I fully appreciate that not everyone cares about the nuances of the process or discussion. They can skip over my threads or put me on ignore as @bnoble suggested. It doesn't hurt my feelings any.

What I don't understand is why they didn't just open up certified exit to anyone at those resorts to get enough deeds? If that didn't get them the percentage, then offer a free CWA swap, if their claims that most owners at these resorts paid more in MF/pt than CWA charges, I would actually be surprised if a bunch didn't take them up on it. And then if they STILL need more deeds, offer the hold outs IDK $1k per deed or something. In that case, their lack of communication except to direct selected individuals and general lack of awareness that caused such gnashing of teeth in this thread before would mean they probably wouldn't have to buy all the deeds or have a major bidding war. Maybe bankruptcy of the HOAs is seen as cheaper, but it also seems to me that most of the steps are still the same. They still had to get the votes to go for bankruptcy and to shut down the resort, so I just wonder how much would play out different.

 

[dioxide45]

What I don't understand is why they didn't just open up certified exit to anyone at those resorts to get enough deeds? If that didn't get them the percentage, then offer a free CWA swap, if their claims that most owners at these resorts paid more in MF/pt than CWA charges, I would actually be surprised if a bunch didn't take them up on it. And then if they STILL need more deeds, offer the hold outs IDK $1k per deed or something. In that case, their lack of communication except to direct selected individuals and general lack of awareness that caused such gnashing of teeth in this thread before would mean they probably wouldn't have to buy all the deeds or have a major bidding war. Maybe bankruptcy of the HOAs is seen as cheaper, but it also seems to me that most of the steps are still the same. They still had to get the votes to go for bankruptcy and to shut down the resort, so I just wonder how much would play out different.

I think the issue is that CE would open Wyndham up to having to pay the ongoing fees until they obtained control of enough deeds. Chapter 11 along with the existing votes is putting a permanent pause on future assessments. This includes assessments that would have had to be paid by CWA and any other Wyndham controlled deeds. So it likely is much cheaper for Wyndham to go the route they did. With Chapter 11 they can just use existing operating and reserve funds until such a time they can terminate the timeshare regime and sell the property or sell it with the timeshare regime in place. If they run out of funds before that happens they can likely use the property as collateral to obtain loans to continue funding the basic operations to keep things from getting bad. Like paying the taxes, insurance and basic utilities and maintenance.

 

[Greg G]

So in the table, for Club Wyndham Star Island (FL) it indicated CONSOLIDATION for the disposition. The definition of this provided in the post is CONSOLIDATION - Wyndham is downsizing the amount of inventory at the resort - likely via eliminating one of multiple HOAs - but is not exiting the resort in entirety.

So from that definition is sounds like Wyndham is not totally exiting the resort and maybe only liquidating some buildings/units under the Wyndham HOA? (edited or maybe the disposition was incorrect for this?)

#	RESORT NAME	RESORT CONTACT INFO	RESORT STATUS	IMPORTANT NOTES/COMMENTS/DETAILS	DISPOSITION	RESORT CLOSURE DATE	RESORT MF (VARIES)
11	Club Wyndham Star Island (FL)	407-997-8000	CONFIRMED: YES HOA VOTE: SCHEDULED - SEE NOTES	Owners have received notification for a special meeting to vote on the liquidation of the Wyndham property to be held on DATE HERE.	CONSOLIDATION	12/31/2025	~$9.02/k (estimated)

 

[Floridaman76]

What I don't understand is why they didn't just open up certified exit to anyone at those resorts to get enough deeds? If that didn't get them the percentage, then offer a free CWA swap, if their claims that most owners at these resorts paid more in MF/pt than CWA charges, I would actually be surprised if a bunch didn't take them up on it. And then if they STILL need more deeds, offer the hold outs IDK $1k per deed or something. In that case, their lack of communication except to direct selected individuals and general lack of awareness that caused such gnashing of teeth in this thread before would mean they probably wouldn't have to buy all the deeds or have a major bidding war. Maybe bankruptcy of the HOAs is seen as cheaper, but it also seems to me that most of the steps are still the same. They still had to get the votes to go for bankruptcy and to shut down the resort, so I just wonder how much would play out different.

Because Wyndham corporate has to pay MF on any deeds they hold and also for whatever CWA points they hold.

They would rather have owners continue to pay MF until they dissolve the timeshare. At that point, MF obligations disappear and Wyndham is responsible going forward, but as I would guess, only the actual expenses, whatever they may be