You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[emeryjre]

If you are not using AI based searches for information, you will be amazed at the differences in the answers
Using Google AI
Searching for "what systems does robotaxi use for autonomous driving" will give you an extensive answer
It is so extensive, I would not try to post it here
The other thing I would suggest
Start using the term "autonomous driving" instead of full self driving
The term autonomous driving seems to coincide with the term level 4 as defined by the SAE

https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update

These terms will help in discussing the concept of having a blind person be transported from point A to point B legally and safely

 

[HitchHiker71]

I freely admit that I have no experience with Tesla, and I also freely admit that I don't care about what legal disclaimers Tesla has provided, as it is beside the point of this conversation. Representation is not synonymous with legal or technical specification. While many commenting here, like myself, may be naive to technical aspects of Tesla capabilities, we also understand kitchen English, and the terms Autopilot and Full Self Driving are misleading, particularly if there have been representations, verbal or otherwise, that the software is more advanced than it actually is.

You are entitled to your opinion. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. Autopilot and FSD are first principles-based terms really - a topic that very few people without an engineering background really understand based upon what I've observed in my travels to date. Tesla has mastered first-principles engineering from the outset, as is proven by the fact that, even to this day, they are the only vehicle manufacturer turning a profit making EVs using nextgen first-principles based manufacturing techniques that no one else can reproduce. Even the Chinese companies aren't yet turning a profit, including BYD, when you remove the fact that they also sell roughly 50% ICE/HEV/PHEVs, which is where they make their profits.

An aside, Ihad always found Musk's historical emphasis on cameras and aversion to supplementing with lidar to be peculiar, if not downright irresponsible. I will again demonstrate my naivety and lack of research on the subject, but I assume that for robotaxis he had to relent and incorporate it.

And again you would be wrong. The robotaxi's are using camera only with neural networks - photons into the NN processor - driving outputs out. Tesla literally has autonomous driverless robotaxi's in service in Austin and Cali that started in June timeframe. Actually, it's already been running in Cali around the Tesla work sites for Tesla employees and friends and family for well over a year now - as a rideshare service. Tesla is doing this already today in other words - and the robotaxi services are rapidly expanding into new cities on a monthly basis between now and year end.

At a very basic level, the first principles for FSD as of v12 - which was a ground-up rewrite of the entire FSD stack using 100% video based neural network training - is to mimic human driving - to drive like a human - because humans aren't going to be comfortable being driven around in a machine that drives a lot differently than they would. That first principle is photons in - NN processing - driving outputs out. Seriously, go test drive a Tesla and try FSD - it "feels" like a human driving - much moreso than a Waymo or any other robotic driving system. This is by design. How do humans drive? Photons in, processing, driving outputs. Same as a human. This is why it feels like a human when driving, especially when compared to something from Waymo or others, which feel inherently robotic in comparison since it's all code based and is not using video based NN training systems at all (which is what FSD was attempting to do prior to v12). Do humans have LIDAR? Nope, so it's not necessary. Period. The cameras can "see" much more than a human as well, full spectrum in other words, so it "sees" everything even in the dark for example, and the vehicles have 8-9 "eyes" or cameras, so it sees better than any human, never gets tired, never gets distracted, never gets angry, and the list goes on. This is why FSD stats show the system is already almost 10x safer than a human driving, and it's only going to get better over time:

Tesla Q2 2025 vehicle safety report proves FSD makes driving almost 10X safer

Tesla released its most recent vehicle safety data on its official website.

www.teslarati.com

 

[Beefnot]

You are entitled to your opinion. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. Autopilot and FSD are first principles-based terms really - a topic that very few people without an engineering background really understand based upon what I've observed in my travels to date. Tesla has mastered first-principles engineering from the outset, as is proven by the fact that, even to this day, they are the only vehicle manufacturer turning a profit making EVs using nextgen first-principles based manufacturing techniques that no one else can reproduce. Even the Chinese companies aren't yet turning a profit, including BYD, when you remove the fact that they also sell roughly 50% ICE/HEV/PHEVs, which is where they make profits.

Okay, yes we disagree. Engineering marvel and profit is largely irrelevant to what we are discussing here with respect to representation.

And again you would be wrong. The robotaxi's are using camera only with neural networks - photons into the NN processor - driving outputs out. Tesla literally has autonomous driverless robotaxi's in service in Austin and Cali that started in June timeframe. Actually, it's already been running in Cali around the Tesla work sites for Tesla employees and friends and family for well over a year now - as a rideshare service. Tesla is doing this already today in other words - and the robotaxi services are rapidly expanding into new cities on a monthly basis between now and year end.

At a very basic level, the first principles for FSD as of v12 - which was a ground-up rewrite of the entire FSD stack using 100% video based neural network training - is to mimic human driving - to drive like a human - because humans aren't going to be comfortable being driven around in a machine that drives a lot differently than they would. That first principle is photons in - NN processing - driving outputs out. Seriously, go test drive a Tesla and try FSD - it "feels" like a human driving - much moreso than a Waymo or any other robotic driving system. This is by design. How do humans drive? Photons in, processing, driving outputs. Same as a human. This is why it feels like a human when driving, especially when compared to something from Waymo or others, which feel inherently robotic in comparison since it's all code based and is not using video based NN training systems at all (which is what FSD was attempting to do prior to v12). Do humans have LIDAR? Nope, so it's not necessary. Period. The cameras can "see" much more than a human as well, full spectrum in other words, so it "sees" everything even in the dark for example, and the vehicles have 8-9 "eyes" or cameras, so it sees better than any human, never gets tired, never gets distracted, never gets angry, and the list goes on. This is why FSD stats show the system is already almost 10x safer than a human driving, and it's only going to get better over time:

Tesla Q2 2025 vehicle safety report proves FSD makes driving almost 10X safer

Tesla released its most recent vehicle safety data on its official website.

www.teslarati.com

Acknowledged I am wrong. I still think it's dumb to not have lidar at least augment it. Humans don't have lidar and humans are prone to making mistakes. Being able to sense movements that are not readily perceptible to the "eye" could only be accretive to safety, not detrimental.

 

[emeryjre]

In legal terms Tesla FSD is not at a level 4 Autonomous Driving level
Elon says it will offer autonomous driving capabilities
But at this time the Tesla system does not meet these capabilities

 

[HitchHiker71]

Acknowledged I am wrong. I still think it's dumb to not have lidar at least augment it. Humans don't have lidar and humans are prone to making mistakes. Being able to sense movements that are not readily perceptible to the "eye" could only be accretive to safety, not detrimental.

Tesla used LIDAR, USS, and their own custom Phoenix radar for years, and ultimately determined none of it was necessary - it's not like they came to this decision lightly or without a ton of data supporting the decision in other words - it was based upon real world testing over a ten year period of time starting in 2012. Tesla ultimately determined that having myriad more sensors contributes to increased complexity with little to no real payoff or advantage in performance when using full spectrum cameras. This is proven by the fact that Tesla FSD is currently the only L2 ADAS system that can literally be dropped anywhere, on any roadway, in any country, and once FSD is enabled, the system will figure out how to navigate that roadway and drive without any maps or other systems, outside of the local FSD computer utilizing the local processing via photons in, NN processing, delivering driving outputs. There are many videos in China of people enabling FSD on mountaintop dirt roads - some with no maps - of FSD driving the vehicle with no interventions - here's a link to two (of many) - it's noteworthy that many of these narrow mountain roads aren't paved, have no markings, no lines, etc. - yet FSD navigates them without any issues:

Show me any other system that can do this without maps, without geofencing, etc. I'll save you the time, you can't, at least not in the US, because no other L2 ADAS system can do this. Period. What does LIDAR add here? Be specific.

Lastly, humans make mistakes because they suffer from distractions, emotions, impairments, and have only two eyes. The FSD cameras and computers literally never suffer from these issues, therefore they are never prone to making the same mistakes that human's make when driving. The numbers prove this out, given FSD is already providing 10x the safety in so far as number of miles driven between accidents. That's a statistic that cannot really be argued with. Is anyone here really going to say we should not embrace a technology that is going to result in 10x fewer people dying on the roads? Computer driven vehicles, regardless of how good they get, are still going to kill people, that's a simple fact, but it will happen much less often than it does today, and that's worth pursuing IMHO, as I certainly don't want 10x more people to die needlessly, on top of the millions more injured, on a persistent basis.

 

[HitchHiker71]

In legal terms Tesla FSD is not at a level 4 Autonomous Driving level
Elon says it will offer autonomous driving capabilities
But at this time the Tesla system does not meet these capabilities

Correct, it is and always has been classified as an L2 ADAS system, by our government no less, which is why it doesn't require ADS type federal certifications and/or approvals. FSD is currently undergoing L3+ ADS evaluations and approvals at this time.

 

[Beefnot]

Tesla used LIDAR, USS, and their own custom Phoenix radar for years, and ultimately determined none of it was necessary - it's not like they came to this decision lightly or without a ton of data supporting the decision in other words - it was based upon real world testing over a ten year period of time starting in 2012. Tesla ultimately determined that having myriad more sensors contributes to increased complexity with little to no real payoff or advantage in performance when using full spectrum cameras. This is proven by the fact that Tesla FSD is currently the only L2 ADAS system that can literally be dropped anywhere, on any roadway, in any country, and once FSD is enabled, the system will figure out how to navigate that roadway and drive without any maps or other systems, outside of the local FSD computer utilizing the local processing via photons in, NN processing, delivering driving outputs. There are many videos in China of people enabling FSD on mountaintop dirt roads - some with no maps - of FSD driving the vehicle with no interventions - here's a link to two (of many) - it's noteworthy that many of these narrow mountain roads aren't paved, have no markings, no lines, etc. - yet FSD navigates them without any issues:

Show me any other system that can do this without maps, without geofencing, etc. I'll save you the time, you can't, at least not in the US, because no other L2 ADAS system can do this. Period. What does LIDAR add here? Be specific.

I got it, you're invested emotionally at this point in Tesla. I'm not. I have no reason or grounds to debate how far ahead of the competition they are. As for what lidar can add to mountain roads, that's almost a non-sequitur for me, as I live in the city and I would care more about urban driving. I found a couple articles below that delve into the debate, and it's not just naive dummies like me who disagree with Tesla's decision. Right or wrong, I'm not a buyer at any price without lidar or without a whole lot more data and years under their belt. Cool.

Lidar vs. Cameras = A Giant Fail For Tesla - CleanTechnica

Lidar can see though smoke, fog, and rain that cameras cannot. These experiments show why that is important.

cleantechnica.com

​

"The news from BYD shines a spotlight on Tesla, which has been over-promising and under-delivering on its automated driving technology for a decade. Much of the reason why it is still struggling — although the latest version of FSD is pretty good — is due to mind games from CEO Elon Musk, who cares not one whit what his engineers tell him, but gets fixated on an idea and can’t let it go. Originally, Tesla FSD relied heavily on cameras, then switched its focus to radar, before switching back to cameras again.

All along, Elon has refused to consider using LiDAR. Ostensibly, the issue was cost. Early LiDAR sensors were OMG expensive, with each sensor costing more than a BYD Seagull. Of course, over time the cost of LiDAR has come down dramatically, which is why BYD can offer it on its least expensive cars. But the real reason was because Elon did not want the bumps on the exterior of his cars needed to house LiDAR components. He is famously intransigent in his thinking. The Model X was delayed for two full years because Musk dislikes the sliding doors common on minivans. He insisted on his beloved falcon wing doors instead. They do have a certain wow factor, but have you seen any other manufacturers adopting the idea? What does that tell you?"

Why Tesla Doesn’t Use Lidar: The Vision-Only Debate - What is Recal?

Tesla’s unique approach to autonomous driving and advanced driver assistance systems (ADAS) has sparked significant debate in the automotive and technology industries. Unlike most of its competitors, Tesla has notably rejected lidar technology, instead relying exclusively on a vision-based...

whatisrecal.com

"Musk’s detractors insist that cameras are fine and dandy most of the time, but can fail to see things that they need to see under some conditions such as strong sunlight, glare, heavy rain, snow, sleet, fog, or smoke. Think for a minute of a right-fielder in Fenway Park on a sunny afternoon. The batter hits a high fly ball that gets lost in the sun as the fielder runs around in circles trying to find the ball while his teammates and 40,000 rabid Red Sox fans scream encouragement. If the ball happens to fall harmlessly to Earth while members of the opposing team scamper around the bases, that gives a pretty good demonstration of the limitations of technology that relies solely on visual cues. With glasses equipped with lidar, it is likely he would have caught the ball."

 

[emeryjre]

You were accusing people of not using the correct terminology and attacking Tesla FSD
The information I have provided is the terminology currently being used in evaluations
The Society of Automotive Engineers laid out a framework for defining self driving
We both agree that FSD is defined as a Level 2 ADAS system
This is a fact
The fact that there have been exaggerations made by certain Tesla personnel does not change this
It needs to be approved at a higher level to be hands off self driving
Tesla and many other companies are working to attain the higher levels
Time will tell which systems will meet these standards

 

[HitchHiker71]

I got it, you're invested emotionally at this point in Tesla. I'm not. I have no reason or grounds to debate how far ahead of the competition they are. As for what lidar can add to mountain roads, that's almost a non-sequitur for me, as I live in the city and I would care more about urban driving. I found a couple articles below that delve into the debate, and it's not just naive dummies like me who disagree with Tesla's decision. Right or wrong, I'm not a buyer at any price without lidar or without a whole lot more data and years under their belt. Cool.

Actually I'm not emotionally invested much at all - however I am an investor and a current stockholder in TSLA and a handful of other technology related stocks because I understand technology more than most, having been educated as an electrical engineer and having worked in IT software for most of my career. We've also owned two Tesla vehicles since early 2023, having been an investor since 2018, and we use the FSD technology literally every day because it has become so reliable since v12 was released - and it will only continue to get better as FSD v14 is released later this year with 4-5x parameter count (possibly up to 10x) to drive toward FSD(Unsupervised). Again, it makes me chuckle that people with literally zero real world experience want to pull articles off the internet to make it seem as if they somehow know what they're actually talking about. Nice try.

Lastly, like any good investor, I attend every quarterly earnings call, review all quarterly results, forward looking statements, and I do a ton of due diligence to understand the differences between what is real vs the good example of the hyperbole that you posted below from a mass media outlet such as Cleantechnica that has notably been anti-Tesla ever since Musk changed his political stance a year or so ago now, so while I do also read negative sentiment as per what you posted, I know enough about how the tech actually works to easily determine if what is being written is accurate or not, and I can tell you without any hesitation that it actually wasn't Musk that even made the decision to revert back to camera only - which tells you all you need to know about the veracity of the claims from the Cleantechnica article. It was Ashok Elluswamy, Telsa's VP of AI and Autopilot. Again, real world actual expertise and knowledge gathered over a period of many years trumps random internet searches every day, and twice on Sunday.

I perform this type of due diligence for any/all of my stock portfolio investments, as should anyone else who invests in arbitrage independently from third party money managers that do so on their behalf. I've probably forgotten more about ADS tech than most folks will ever know. I don't say this to brag, but rather to indicate it is critical to understand ADS tech and the underlying AIs/NNs and how they work, which is one of three primary legs that will propel TSLA into it's next major growth phase over the next several years. Those three legs are AI - which underpins everything, robotics - which includes robots on wheels (FSD in cars), and Optimus humanoid robots, and renewable energies. Big picture the stated goal is to move the world from relative scarcity to abundance, for energy, labor, goods, etc. This type of due diligence is a requirement really, otherwise you're better off choosing stocks via a dart board really.

 

[HitchHiker71]

You were accusing people of not using the correct terminology and attacking Tesla FSD
The information I have provided is the terminology currently being used in evaluations
The Society of Automotive Engineers laid out a framework for defining self driving
We both agree that FSD is defined as a Level 2 ADAS system
This is a fact

It's also a fact that the version of FSD(U) being used in the robotaxi's in Austin and California is classified as an L3+ ADS system, which is why it is geo-fenced and is very gradually being rolled out - with the goal of going wider heading into 2026 pending regulatory approvals. It's no accident that Tesla is introducing robotaxi's in the same regions as Waymo - as those regions already have a more mature ADS approval process, which is why Tesla is mirroring the same regions as Waymo - it really doesn't have anything to do with Waymo itself despite all of the press to the contrary. It has to do with regulatory approvals.

The fact that there have been exaggerations made by certain Tesla personnel does not change this
It needs to be approved at a higher level to be hands off self driving

- this is what is being proved out via robotaxi right now.

Tesla and many other companies are working to attain the higher levels
Time will tell which systems will meet these standards

- the future isn't written yet - but I've learned the hard way not to bet against Elon - who often seemingly delivers the impossible - just simply late.

 

[Beefnot]

Again, it makes me chuckle that people with literally zero real world experience want to pull articles off the internet to make it seem as if they somehow know what they're actually talking about. Nice try.

Say what you will, but these types of comments underscore your reactionary or emotional investment in Tesla. Tesla will succeed or it won't. In the meantime, the majority of folks with zero real world experience will not pretend to be tech geeks, but instead will pull articles off the internet to get a sense for what tech geeks are saying. Don't waste your time trying to talk down to us dummies or impress us with puffery; invest that energy on influencing the tech geeks to see the world the way you see it so that they write the favorable articles we dummies will read.

 

[Brett]

Actually I'm not emotionally invested much at all - however I am an investor and a current stockholder in TSLA and a handful of other technology related stocks because I understand technology more than most, having been educated as an electrical engineer and having worked in IT software for most of my career. We've also owned two Tesla vehicles since early 2023, having been an investor since 2018, and we use the FSD technology literally every day because it has become so reliable since v12 was released - and it will only continue to get better as FSD v14 is released later this year with 4-5x parameter count (possibly up to 10x) to drive toward FSD(Unsupervised). Again, it makes me chuckle that people with literally zero real world experience want to pull articles off the internet to make it seem as if they somehow know what they're actually talking about. Nice try.

Lastly, like any good investor, I attend every quarterly earnings call, review all quarterly results, forward looking statements, and I do a ton of due diligence to understand the differences between what is real vs the good example of the hyperbole that you posted below from a mass media outlet such as Cleantechnica that has notably been anti-Tesla ever since Musk changed his political stance a year or so ago now, so while I do also read negative sentiment as per what you posted, I know enough about how the tech actually works to easily determine if what is being written is accurate or not, and I can tell you without any hesitation that it actually wasn't Musk that even made the decision to revert back to camera only - which tells you all you need to know about the veracity of the claims from the Cleantechnica article. It was Ashok Elluswamy, Telsa's VP of AI and Autopilot. Again, real world actual expertise and knowledge gathered over a period of many years trumps random internet searches every day, and twice on Sunday.

I perform this type of due diligence for any/all of my stock portfolio investments, as should anyone else who invests in arbitrage independently from third party money managers that do so on their behalf. I've probably forgotten more about ADS tech than most folks will ever know. I don't say this to brag, but rather to indicate it is critical to understand ADS tech and the underlying AIs/NNs and how they work, which is one of three primary legs that will propel TSLA into it's next major growth phase over the next several years. Those three legs are AI - which underpins everything, robotics - which includes robots on wheels (FSD in cars), and Optimus humanoid robots, and renewable energies). This type of due diligence is a requirement really, otherwise you're better off choosing stocks via a dart board really.

If one owns a Tesla car and owns Tesla stock then they are probably "emotionally invested" - IMO

I don't have a dog in the "FSD technology" fight other than enjoying the current adaptive cruise control and looking forward to the inevitable techonolgy advances

.
But about being better off choosing stocks via a dart board" ...

..

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/business/stock-market-index-funds.html


.

 

[Beefnot]

If one owns a Tesla car and owns Tesla stock then they are probably "emotionally invested" - IMO

I don't have a dog in the "FSD technology" fight other than enjoying the current adaptive cruise control and looking forward to the inevitable techonolgy advances

Perhaps, although if someone were to criticize the features or capabilities of my Hyundai Ioniq or Mercedes EQE, I wouldn't continue running off at the mouth ad nauseum about how misguided, ignorant, or unsophisticated they are. But hey, that's me.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Say what you will, but these types of comments underscore your reactionary or emotional investment in Tesla. Tesla will succeed or it won't. In the meantime, the majority of folks with zero real world experience will not pretend to be tech geeks, but instead will pull articles off the internet to get a sense for what tech geeks are saying. Don't waste your time trying to talk down to us dummies or impress us with puffery; invest that energy on influencing the tech geeks to see the world the way you see it so that they write the favorable articles we dummies will read.

Not talking down to anyone, just speaking from a wealth of research over many years and a wealth of real world experience. Say what you will, but these things matter, and the simple fact is you are speaking from a realm of zero experience and a lack of research. Placed on Ignore from this point forward, since I don’t see any productive reason to continue to read your posts on this thread.


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[HitchHiker71]

In legal terms Tesla FSD is not at a level 4 Autonomous Driving level
Elon says it will offer autonomous driving capabilities
But at this time the Tesla system does not meet these capabilities

These decisions are largely made at a local and state level from a regulator standpoint, which is how and why robotaxi is rolling out in Austin and other cities with more mature and friendly ADS regs. The robotaxi is listed on the Austin website under ADS providers, here:

https://www.austintexas.gov/page/autonomous-vehicles Autonomous Vehicles | AustinTexas.gov

So in point of fact you are incorrect in your assessment that legally Tesla, per above, has deployed an AV - or autonomous vehicle - or L4/L5 driverless service with a geofenced area in the state of Texas, specifically the Austin locale. You are correct in that it is not yet widely available for consumers - which is not planned until 2026 timeframe.


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[Beefnot]

Not talking down to anyone, just speaking from a wealth of research over many years and a wealth of real world experience. Say what you will, but these things matter, and the simple fact is you are speaking from a realm of zero experience and a lack of research. Blocked from this point forward, since you have wasted enough of my time.


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Maybe lack of research, but evidently not a lack of knowledge, since there are many folks much smarter than me that seem to agree with this dummy. I realize that information that disagrees with your religion is a waste of your time. Tootles.

 

[easyrider]

Watch this video of FSD 13.2.9 in NYC and then tell me it’s mediocre:

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I noticed the weather in the video was somewhat nice. I might be a bit off but I'm thinking the sensors must have difficulties in snow, heavy rain and dust. Even with all of the problems I do think Tesla stock is going to increase by huge amounts in the next few years. I kind of wish I would have bought more last spring when it was down but even now I think it's a bargain.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

I noticed the weather in the video was somewhat nice. I might be a bit off but I'm thinking the sensors must have difficulties in snow, heavy rain and dust. Even with all of the problems I do think Tesla stock is going to increase by huge amounts in the next few years. I kind of wish I would have bought more last spring when it was down but even now I think it's a bargain.

Bill

Moderate to severe inclement weather was an issue for a long time. In v13 with the significant increases in the sizing of the model itself and the significant increases in parameter counts it has gotten much better but still requires some work IMHO. In the earlier versions of v12 the FSD system would at times throw up the “red hands” on the screen indicating it was time to take over immediately, when dealing with moderate to heavy rain or snow. This behavior stopped for me in v12.6.4 but FSD would simply decrease the maximum speed, sometimes to a level that was lower than most humans would still drive.

I haven’t had v13.2.9 throw up the red hands as yet, but it does still happen over on TMC occasionally (Tesla Motor Club forums). In the robotaxi deployment in Austin, one of the influencers I follow was in a robotaxi with a livestream during one of those recent downpours and the robotaxi actually pulled over onto the side of the road until the downpour subsided a bit. The new larger model with a 4-5x parameter increase that’s due to in the fall will likely significantly improve weather related events - which is a requirement for L4/L5 ADS.

If you watched the video, it’s pretty impressive especially in NYC. It needs some “confidence” type work given urban city driving is pretty aggressive, and IIRC he did have to intervene a time or two due to the system being too “timid”, so it’s not perfect, but it’s really impressive overall. The FSD version in the robotaxi’s seems more confident and handles edge cases better. This version is supposed to be rolling out to current AI4/v13 owners later this month.


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[HitchHiker71]

If one owns a Tesla car and owns Tesla stock then they are probably "emotionally invested" - IMO

So using that same logic, every person who owns a Ford and Ford stock, or a GM and GM stock, is emotionally invested? Is that what you are saying? How many stock fund managers drive a Ford while also investing in Ford stock? Does that mean they are emotionally invested? Just trying to understand the logic.

I don't have a dog in the "FSD technology" fight other than enjoying the current adaptive cruise control and looking forward to the inevitable techonolgy advances

.
But about being better off choosing stocks via a dart board" ...


View attachment 114094

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View attachment 114095
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/business/stock-market-index-funds.html


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Yup.

It’s worth perhaps noting that I have been investing with TSLA since 2018. We did not become owners until 2023 however, and my wife daily drives the Tesla since she works outside of our home (and uses FSD every day for her drive to and from work). One of the primary reasons we chose to buy a Tesla was because v12 was on the horizon at that time - and we wanted to keep close track on how the FSD stack progressed since it is central to the future valuation of the stock over time. No better way to gain real world experience and to determine whether we should or should not continue to hold TSLA stock than to use one of the key valuation components firsthand on the daily.


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[emeryjre]

One thing I am absolutely positive of
When Tesla achieves full autonomous driving capabilities
Every one with an interest will be informed of the event

 

[Elan]

What I wonder is how important autonomous driving is to the average person considering an EV. I would venture that it's not nearly as important as bringing prices down, improving the charging network, and reducing charging times.

Sent from my Pixel 9a using Tapatalk

 

[HitchHiker71]

What I wonder is how important autonomous driving is to the average person considering an EV. I would venture that it's not nearly as important as bringing prices down, improving the charging network, and reducing charging times.

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When robotaxi’s become mainstream, why would most folks care about a charging network, prices, or charging times? Need a ride? Open the mobile app and order a car that appears at your house whenever needed, and for a small fraction of the price of having to pay for what is the second largest collective expense for anyone - a personally owned vehicle. No more car payments, no more auto insurance payments, no more fuel expenses, no charging times or expenses. Why spend $1-2k per month on automobile related expenses when you can cut that cost by 75% by increasing the utility of each vehicle on the road from 5-10% to 80%+?

This is why Tesla is planning to host thousands of robotaxis in every major metro area within the next few years. This concept will take hold in urban areas at first, and then on out from there. The future of both consumer and commercial transportation isn’t personally owned automobiles, it is networks of autonomous vehicles. It’s a question of when, not if. Need groceries? Order them and a robotaxi will deliver them to your home or apartment. An Optimus robot will deliver it all to your door. Crazy as it sounds, this is the future, and it’s closer than many would like to believe with the onset of embodied AI.


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[davidvel]

What year was the car and what version of the software was it running? Sounds like it was an older model but details matter.


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I have no idea, but will see if I can find out.

 

[davidvel]

Watch this video of FSD 13.2.9 in NYC and then tell me it’s mediocre:

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I know you were not replying to me, but admittedly I watched only about 2 minutes of the 35+ minute video. In that time I saw the car cut-off a cement truck and 2 other vehicles, failing to yield to them on an unprotected left turn, also blocking the intersection. 3 violations of the vehicle code in 1 turn. That was very similar to what I experienced in the drive I recently took, so maybe the same software version.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

When robotaxi’s become mainstream, why would most folks care about a charging network, prices, or charging times? Need a ride? Open the mobile app and order a car that appears at your house whenever needed, and for a small fraction of the price of having to pay for what is the second largest collective expense for anyone - a personally owned vehicle. No more car payments, no more auto insurance payments, no more fuel expenses, no charging times or expenses. Why spend $1-2k per month on automobile related expenses when you can cut that cost by 75% by increasing the utility of each vehicle on the road from 5-10% to 80%+?

This is why Tesla is planning to host thousands of robotaxis in every major metro area within the next few years. This concept will take hold in urban areas at first, and then on out from there. The future of both consumer and commercial transportation isn’t personally owned automobiles, it is networks of autonomous vehicles. It’s a question of when, not if. Need groceries? Order them and a robotaxi will deliver them to your home or apartment. An Optimus robot will deliver it all to your door. Crazy as it sounds, this is the future, and it’s closer than many would like to believe with the onset of embodied AI.


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They will worry about immediate availability. Rush hours will not go away because of robotaxis. They are inherent with workflow timings. I find it unlikely that there will be enough robotaxis to handle peak demand - too many would be idle (sunk cost, no revenue) during that majority of non-peak times. Congestion pricing? You could say that owning would be the best answer. . .