You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[emeryjre]

Gentleman

It is supposed to be a subtle joke

"Charge" Card

 

[HitchHiker71]

Gentleman

It is supposed to be a subtle joke

"Charge" Card

Learn to use emoticons - there’s a reason they were created…


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[buzglyd]

It's official. My 2024 Model 3 AWD was dropped at my curb Thursday night. Blue with White. Upgraded wheels and... the previous owner paid for lifetime FSD! It also has all the Tesla mats in car and both trunks and had a charging cable in the trunk. I'm gonna drive it from Scottsdale to Carlsbad mid-week. We'll drive this for a few years and wait for the resale prices to come down on current year Plaids.

 

[Carolinian]

‘I bought an electric car - now I hate it and wish I had a petrol or diesel’

A frustrated motorist new to electric vehicles has blasted their vehicle and even suggested they wanted an old petrol or diesel model.

www.express.co.uk

 

[buzglyd]

‘I bought an electric car - now I hate it and wish I had a petrol or diesel’

A frustrated motorist new to electric vehicles has blasted their vehicle and even suggested they wanted an old petrol or diesel model.

www.express.co.uk

Those articles are everywhere. I have multiple cars. The electric is for all the around town running we do. The Corvette is for the mountain roads.

 

[Brett]

Those articles are everywhere. I have multiple cars. The electric is for all the around town running we do. The Corvette is for the mountain roads.

Kinda makes one feel sorry for all the electric car owners in China .... so sad ...

https://www.investors.com/news/chinese-electric-cars-americans-cannot-buy-budget-to-luxury/

.

 

[Beefnot]

If I did a lot of driving, had no level 2 charger installed at my house, did no pre-planning for road trips, and/or had no ICE vehicle for backup, then I might dislike electric vehicles too. As it stands now, however, I hate electric cars every bit as much as the Chinese do.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

It's official. My 2024 Model 3 AWD was dropped at my curb Thursday night. Blue with White. Upgraded wheels and... the previous owner paid for lifetime FSD! It also has all the Tesla mats in car and both trunks and had a charging cable in the trunk. I'm gonna drive it from Scottsdale to Carlsbad mid-week. We'll drive this for a few years and wait for the resale prices to come down on current year Plaids.

I'm curious. how much of a haircut did the previous owner take? And since FSD is not released yet for general use, will it be able to handle the release the full Level4/5 FSD soon to be used for the robotaxi?

 

[HitchHiker71]

I'm curious. how much of a haircut did the previous owner take? And since FSD is not released yet for general use, will it be able to handle the release the full Level4/5 FSD soon to be used for the robotaxi?

Where do you get this idea that FSD has not been released for general use? It hasn’t been in beta for over two years now, it moved out of beta to production when FSD (Supervised) was released with v12. I’m curious about your misleading statement regarding FSD given we have been using it ever since we bought our first Tesla in March 2023.

AI4 - which his car has - will run the as yet to be released Unsupervised version that will likely be released starting later this year with wider release in 2026. The robotaxi services have already started in Austin and Cali using the same Model Y’s off of the production line that consumers buy today - using FSD (Unsupervised) - which have the same AI4 FSD computer as any other Tesla produced today.


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[buzglyd]

I'm curious. how much of a haircut did the previous owner take? And since FSD is not released yet for general use, will it be able to handle the release the full Level4/5 FSD soon to be used for the robotaxi?

I think the previous owner took a massive haircut because I bought it for 34k

I talked to a lady in Scottsdale who wanted to trade in her 2024 Model Y and the dealer offered 25 grand. I bought mine from a Cadillac dealer and they likely had no idea the lifetime FSD was purchased.

 

[easyrider]

Gentleman

It is supposed to be a subtle joke

"Charge" Card

I did get it. No one seems to have figured out that your license needs to be current was an electrical joke either. Serious group, lol.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

I think the previous owner took a massive haircut because I bought it for 34k

I talked to a lady in Scottsdale who wanted to trade in her 2024 Model Y and the dealer offered 25 grand. I bought mine from a Cadillac dealer and they likely had no idea the lifetime FSD was purchased.

That's a pretty good deal.

Bill

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Where do you get this idea that FSD has not been released for general use? It hasn’t been in beta for over two years now, it moved out of beta to production when FSD (Supervised) was released with v12. I’m curious about your misleading statement regarding FSD given we have been using it ever since we bought our first Tesla in March 2023.

AI4 - which his car has - will run the as yet to be released Unsupervised version that will likely be released starting later this year with wider release in 2026. The robotaxi services have already started in Austin and Cali using the same Model Y’s off of the production line that consumers buy today - using FSD (Unsupervised) - which have the same AI4 FSD computer as any other Tesla produced today.


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To me FSD is the unsupervised version. And unsupervised is not available everywhere yet.

 

[HitchHiker71]

To me FSD is the unsupervised version. And unsupervised is not available everywhere yet.

That is not how it has ever functioned nor is that how it is legally defined since inception. Sure, the goal may eventually be to function as an L4/L5 autonomous system, but that’s not the case today nor has it ever been the case. It is legally classified as an L2 ADAS system, nothing more and nothing less. How people feel or otherwise interpret based upon their own logic is irrelevant.


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[Beefnot]

That is not how it has ever functioned nor is that how it is legally defined since inception. Sure, the goal may eventually be to function as an L4/L5 autonomous system, but that’s not the case today nor has it ever been the case. It is legally classified as an L2 ADAS system, nothing more and nothing less. How people feel or otherwise interpret based upon their own logic is irrelevant.


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To my recollection, it was represented as unsupervised in the past, and it did previously function as such, and Tesla eventually made changes to require more driver supervision.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

That is not how it has ever functioned nor is that how it is legally defined since inception. Sure, the goal may eventually be to function as an L4/L5 autonomous system, but that’s not the case today nor has it ever been the case. It is legally classified as an L2 ADAS system, nothing more and nothing less. How people feel or otherwise interpret based upon their own logic is irrelevant.


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What does the term FSD stand for? Full Self Driving. No more, no less. If a driver has to be available to take over in some circumstances, that's not Full. That is Supervised Self Driving, or Mostly Self Driving, or some other term. L2 ADAS does not fit the term Full Self Driving. The Robotaxi is FSD, but it is not available outside of 2 cities.

So when, I read that a used 2024 Tesla has lifetime FSD, I wonder if it it going to be capable for FSD whenever it is made widely available. (Does it already have all the needed sensors, the computer processing capability to make the shift, ect.) In other words, what would I be actually getting?

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I am neither pro or anti EVs. But to make a value judgement on any particular vehicle, I need to know exactly what is being offered. Note, your definition of FSD still does not allow a blind, deaf or epileptic person from using that FSD, as they still are incompetent from taking over driving when required.

 

[davidvel]

FSD, or SSD, whatever, I drove with a family member in one of these for the first time a few weeks ago. These robot cars drive exactly as you would expect a robot to drive, like a robot, and scary. Stopped at a freeway transition with the onramp light shut off, almost rear ended. Almost stopped at a green light when a pedestrian was over 10 feet from reaching a crosswalk, again almost rear ended. Drove at about 55 mph in a small 25 mph road until driver intervened. Scary shizz.

 

[HitchHiker71]

To my recollection, it was represented as unsupervised in the past, and it did previously function as such, and Tesla eventually made changes to require more driver supervision.

That is simply untrue and it has never functioned as such at any point in the past. Where do you folks find this stuff? I’ve been using FSD since version 10.x beta. Current rev is 13.2.9. Tesla, and every other manufacturer in the US today, always requires supervision - as again - these systems have only ever been legally classified as an L2 ADAS system, which ALWAYS requires supervision by design.

I think what you are conflating here is the process of Tesla implementing stricter driver attention monitoring over time, due to increasingly widespread use of the software and subsequent regulatory requests to implement more strict driver attention monitoring, such as the prior steering wheel nags and the current cabin camera monitoring systems to ensure the driver is paying attention and to disable the FSD system if/when the driver is not paying attention. But the system has never been anything more than a L2 ADAS system to date. If it were ever to be or to have been a L4/L5 system - there would be no need for driver attention monitoring in the first place.


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[HitchHiker71]

What does the term FSD stand for? Full Self Driving. No more, no less. If a driver has to be available to take over in some circumstances, that's not Full. That is Supervised Self Driving, or Mostly Self Driving, or some other term. L2 ADAS does not fit the term Full Self Driving. The Robotaxi is FSD, but it is not available outside of 2 cities.

So when, I read that a used 2024 Tesla has lifetime FSD, I wonder if it it going to be capable for FSD whenever it is made widely available. (Does it already have all the needed sensors, the computer processing capability to make the shift, ect.) In other words, what would I be actually getting?

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I am neither pro or anti EVs. But to make a value judgement on any particular vehicle, I need to know exactly what is being offered. Note, your definition of FSD still does not allow a blind, deaf or epileptic person from using that FSD, as they still are incompetent from taking over driving when required.

It has never been classified as FSD - that’s simply an abbreviation that many use for the sake of brevity. The original moniker was FSD Beta up through the early v12 versions - which was beta software by design - nothing more to say since it was beta. Once v12.3 was released the software was taken out of beta and the name was officially changed to Full Self Driving (Supervised). As many courts have repeatedly determined - the name doesn’t imply anything legally - so again - how you or anyone else feels about it is moot.

Here’s links to the official Tesla website on FSD(S):

https://www.tesla.com/fsd Full Self-Driving (Supervised) | Tesla

https://www.tesla.com/support/fsd Full Self-Driving (Supervised) | Tesla Support


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[HitchHiker71]

FSD, or SSD, whatever, I drove with a family member in one of these for the first time a few weeks ago. These robot cars drive exactly as you would expect a robot to drive, like a robot, and scary. Stopped at a freeway transition with the onramp light shut off, almost rear ended. Almost stopped at a green light when a pedestrian was over 10 feet from reaching a crosswalk, again almost rear ended. Drove at about 55 mph in a small 25 mph road until driver intervened. Scary shizz.

What year was the car and what version of the software was it running? Sounds like it was an older model but details matter.


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[easyrider]

In other words, what would I be actually getting?

Less than expected, unless your expectations are a bit mediocre, imo.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Less than expected, unless your expectations are a bit mediocre, imo.

Bill

Watch this video of FSD 13.2.9 in NYC and then tell me it’s mediocre:

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[Beefnot]

Where do you folks find this stuff?

The plethora of lawsuits claiming that Musk and Tesla egregiously misrepresented the capabilities, the labeling of it as FULL Self Driving to begin with, oh oops I mean FSD Beta. I could be imagining that after the complaints, high profile accidents, and lawsuits, Tesla beefed up its qualifications of how FSD, I mean FSD Beta, was to be responsibly used (or not used), but that was my recollection. I'm sure the Tesla fanbbois and apologists know a lot better than the rest of us the timeline of what exactly was represented by Tesla and/or Musk and when, so I could stand corrected.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The plethora of lawsuits claiming that Musk and Tesla egregiously misrepresented the capabilities, the labeling of it as FULL Self Driving to begin with, oh oops I mean FSD Beta. I could be imagining that after the complaints, high profile accidents, and lawsuits, Tesla beefed up its qualifications of how FSD, I mean FSD Beta, was to be responsibly used (or not used), but that was my recollection. I'm sure the Tesla fanbbois and apologists know a lot better than the rest of us the timeline of what exactly was represented by Tesla and/or Musk and when, so I could stand corrected.

To date, none of those lawsuits have succeeded, despite the narrative in the mass media otherwise. All of those cases that went to the jury, with one recent exception that is being appealed, have failed to prove any misrepresentation. It's just like with timesharing, it doesn't matter what is said, it matters what the legal contract says, and in this case, as has been repeatedly proven in court, the legal verbiage says it's an L2 ADAS system that requires constant human monitoring. That's the simple truth, regardless of what anyone says, and that is what the cases keep proving as well. Again, FSD hasn't been in beta for over two years now, it's generally available software as of v12.3 entitled Full Self Driving (Supervised).

So, let's ask a basic question here - have any of you that are having this debate actually used FSD? Have any of you even owned a Tesla before? Do you own a Tesla currently with FSD? Or are you arguing based solely on a very limited and academically questionable understanding of things? Because I use it constantly, I speak from years of experience, and have been using FSD since the later versions of 10.x. I just love having debates with a bunch of internet educated novices that literally have zero experience nor any background with Tesla vehicles, let alone the FSD software stack. It's really quite comical the level of naivety displayed.

 

[Beefnot]

To date, none of those lawsuits have succeeded, despite the narrative in the mass media otherwise. All of those cases that went to the jury, with one recent exception that is being appealed, have failed to prove any misrepresentation. It's just like with timesharing, it doesn't matter what is said, it matters what the legal contract says, and in this case, as has been repeatedly proven in court, the legal verbiage says it's an L2 ADAS system that requires constant human monitoring. That's the simple truth, regardless of what anyone says, and that is what the cases keep proving as well. Again, FSD hasn't been in beta for over two years now, it's generally available software as of v12.3 entitled Full Self Driving (Supervised).

So, let's ask a basic question here - have any of you that are having this debate actually used FSD? Have any of you even owned a Tesla before? Do you own a Tesla currently with FSD? Or are you arguing based solely on a very limited and academically questionable understanding of things? Because I use it constantly, I speak from years of experience, and have been using FSD since the later versions of 10.x. I just love having debates with a bunch of internet educated novices that literally have zero experience nor any background with Tesla vehicles, let alone the FSD software stack. It's really quite comical the level of naivety displayed.

I freely admit that I have no experience with Tesla, and I also freely admit that I don't care about what legal disclaimers Tesla has provided, as it is beside the point of this conversation. Representation is not synonymous with legal or technical specification. While many commenting here, like myself, may be naive to technical aspects of Tesla capabilities, we also understand kitchen English, and the terms Autopilot and Full Self Driving are misleading, particularly if there have been representations, verbal or otherwise, that the software is more advanced than it actually is.

An aside, Ihad always found Musk's historical emphasis on cameras and aversion to supplementing with lidar to be peculiar, if not downright irresponsible. I will again demonstrate my naivety and lack of research on the subject, but I assume that for robotaxis he had to relent and incorporate it.