How does a timeshare save me money?

[AwayWeGo]

Shux, Don't Let That Bother You. It Never Bothers Me.

It does me no good to participate in threads when people have such shallow opinions of me.

I never let that bother me. People can think I'm ever so shallow & it's all mox nix.

I mean, if people think I'm shallow, there are only 2 possibilities.

1. I'm shallow. In that case, I'm already in a hole so the best I can do is stop digging.

2. I'm not shallow. In that case, it does me no good to make myself look like I am shallow by protesting that I'm not.

Either way, I'm better off just letting it go.

BTW, once some semi-inane TUG-BBS entry I sent in made another participant so gosh-darn mad that the other participant responded with a snappy come-back so over the top that the Grand Pro not only edited the snappy come-back but obliterated it completely off the site just as though it had never even been posted.

Whoever it was that I peeved was peeved so bad that he or she could hardly stand it -- which is too bad, because the entry that got his or her nose out of joint was just describing a Las Vegas "compound freebies" vacation experience, not commenting personally about anybody here or in Las Vegas.

I try to be semi-humorous on TUG-BBS, & maybe even semi-provocative now & then within reasonable bounds, but I try never to be hurtful or insulting or too much of a know-it-all, which is only fitting because I don't know all that much -- mainly, just enough to be dangerous. Also, I try to keep in mind the motto of the Gridiron Club of Washington DC (of which my late father was president back during the Reagan administration), to wit: The Gridiron May Singe But It Never Burns.

By me, timeshares & timesharing are for fun & therefore TUG-BBS is for fun also. I like it when the participants keep everything congenial. Fortunately, TUG has a bunch of savvy & alert & seasoned BBS administrators (assistants, in effect, to the Grand Pro) who can bring us up short any time we stray too far over the line.

Is this a great web site or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[scrapngen]

Ha! Seems like the answer a lawyer likes to give: "It depends". Wow. Didn't really think it would very so much. I figured it was a rule of the exchange company, not the TS. Then again if you're exchanging withing a TS internal list, then I can see why they make their own rules.

Thanks for taking a stab at it.

Sorry - it usually IS the rule of the exchange company, but the TS you own determines the exchange co. unless you go to one of the independent ones. And some of the developers have certain agreements in place with the exchange companies that make the rules slightly different - that's all I was trying to say. But, really, they are fairly similar. The devil is in the details

And I'm not a lawyer (just kidding, no offense taken or given to you or lawyers in general - or generals for that matter:rofl: )

 

[brucecz]

It is NOT ILLEGAL.

In fact, I doubt that there is any law governing timeshare exchange rentals.

I respectfully disagree, and no, I am not a attorney.

Yes, IMHO under the law it would be illegal if someone rented you a RCI exchange and you were not allowed to be checked in and because that condition is stated in the RCI terms and conditions all RCI Members agree to when joining about not using any exchange for commerical purposes.

That is a formal agreement they signed. It does not matter if they were not happy about it, but they took the risk.

That in its self IMHO would be considered a legal binding contract. Then if that person who was not allowed to be checked in for the vacation they paid for would have a legal basis to sue for damages to make them whole.

Also the court in Wisconsin if a contractor (even in small claims court) does not fullfill the terms of a contract they are liable triple for damages on the rental amount paid in good faith. I will not guess at anyrelated travel exspences, ect.

I am not sure if they could pile on punitive damages, but maybe RedDogSD could shed some light on that if he is a attorney.

Bruce

 

[shifty1981]

Thanks. I'm not sure I agree that it makes one look shallow by protesting other's who are trying to make me look shallow. But anyway.

BTW - who is the top dog? I know all his nicknames (thanks for your link), but who is he/she?

I never let that bother me. People can think I'm ever so shallow & it's all mox nix.

I mean, if people think I'm shallow, there are only 2 possibilities.

1. I'm shallow. In that case, I'm already in a hole so the best I can do is stop digging.

2. I'm not shallow. In that case, it does me no good to make myself look like I am shallow protesting that I'm not.

Either way, I'm better off just letting it go.

BTW, once some semi-inane TUG-BBS entry I sent in made another participant so gosh-darn mad that the other participant responded with a snappy come-back so over the top that the Grand Pro not only edited the snappy come-back but obliterated it completely off the site just as though it had never even been posted.

Whoever it was that I peeved was peeved so bad that he or she could hardly stand it -- which is too bad, because the entry that got his or her nose out of joint was just describing a Las Vegas "compound freebies" vacation experience, not commenting personally about anybody here or in Las Vegas.

I try to be semi-humorous on TUG-BBS, & maybe even semi-provocative now & then within reasonable bounds, but I try never to be hurtful or insulting or too much of a know-it-all, which is only fitting because I don't know all that much -- mainly, just enough to be dangerous. Also, I try to keep in mind the motto of the Gridiron Club of Washington DC (of which my late father was president back during the Reagan administration), to wit: The Gridiron May Singe But It Never Burns.

By me, timeshares & timesharing are for fun & therefore TUG-BBS is for fun also. I like it when the participants keep everything congenial. Fortunately, TUG has a bunch of savvy & alert & seasoned BBS administrators (assistants, in effect, to the Grand Pro) who can bring us up short any time we stray too far over the line.

Is this a great web site or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[rickandcindy23]

Thanks. I'm not sure I agree that it makes one look shallow by protesting other's who are trying to make me look shallow. But anyway.

BTW - who is the top dog? I know all his nicknames (thanks for your link), but who is he/she?

TUGBrian, or TUGBrain, as I call him. He is the head honcho/ owner of the site. His dad started this site many years ago, and I wish I had found it way back when. It's been the best $15 per year I ever spent.

Actually, I only spent that twice: once when I first joined, and another time that I didn't need to pay but did anyway. You get free months of usage by 1) Writing reviews that are more than a small paragraph, or 2)Getting others to join TUG. So you really never have to pay again, as long as you travel or get others as members.

There used to be additional free usage for outstanding resort reviews, kind of a contest, which I won once, a long time ago.

I am working on a lifetime membership by recruiting TUG members. Once you get 10, you never have to worry about paying again. But it's difficult, believe me. Where do you find timeshare addicts but here on TUG? They've already joined. :rofl:

 

[AwayWeGo]

Shallow Is As Shallow Does.

I'm not sure I agree that it makes one look shallow by protesting other's who are trying to make me look shallow.

You'll just have to trust me on that.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[RedDogSD]

I really don't want to get into a complex discussion on the difference between criminal liability (usually what people mean by illegal) and a breach of contract. I don't think that the criminal code in any state covers the rental of RCI or II exchanges. However, Bruce is right that if I rented it to you, and you were unable to check in, then I am in breach of contract. You might be able to get the FBI White Collar Crime unit to open a Fraud case, but unless I am doing this in large amounts....I doubt they will deal with it.

However, if someone rented their RCI exchange and was able to get the renter a guest certificate (against the rules) and that person was able to check in to the unit, then there is no criminal or civil liability that I can see. The only party that has been wronged in this example is RCI/II and they are the ones who have to take the actions of revoking your membership, etc. If this happens before the check in date, and the renter cannot check in, then see my previous comments. If it happens after the renter checked in and enjoyed their vacation, then I assure you that no court in the United States will touch the case.

 

[shifty1981]

Purely for curiousity's sake, how would the renter proceed? I mean surely it would cost more to pursue the rental fee in attorney's fees that they'd get back. Or would they say the person who they rented from must also pay their legal fees? that's something I never understood about small claims court. how is it affordable?

I really don't want to get into a complex discussion on the difference between criminal liability (usually what people mean by illegal) and a breach of contract. I don't think that the criminal code in any state covers the rental of RCI or II exchanges. However, Bruce is right that if I rented it to you, and you were unable to check in, then I am in breach of contract. You might be able to get the FBI White Collar Crime unit to open a Fraud case, but unless I am doing this in large amounts....I doubt they will deal with it.

However, if someone rented their RCI exchange and was able to get the renter a guest certificate (against the rules) and that person was able to check in to the unit, then there is no criminal or civil liability that I can see. The only party that has been wronged in this example is RCI/II and they are the ones who have to take the actions of revoking your membership, etc. If this happens before the check in date, and the renter cannot check in, then see my previous comments. If it happens after the renter checked in and enjoyed their vacation, then I assure you that no court in the United States will touch the case.

 

[RedDogSD]

In CA, you cannot use an attorney in small claims court. I think most states are like that. The total damages sought must be $5000 or less.

Sorry, just checked the rules. Individuals (in CA) can sue for $7500. Corporations can only sue for $5000.

 

[shifty1981]

In CA, you cannot use an attorney in small claims court. I think most states are like that. The total damages sought must be $5000 or less.

So the real cost you must justify is time? Meaning if they want to delay it as much as possible you can have to invest time and energy to get back $400-$2500?

 

[RedDogSD]

Purely for curiousity's sake, how would the renter proceed? I mean surely it would cost more to pursue the rental fee in attorney's fees that they'd get back. Or would they say the person who they rented from must also pay their legal fees? that's something I never understood about small claims court. how is it affordable?

I do think it would be a slam dunk case in Small claims court if you rented to me and I could not check in. I would provide the court with:

Copies of the Listing on websites that you were advertising
Copies of any correspondence between us
Copies of any rental agreements that we signed
Copies of bank records showing that I paid you.
Signed or sworn statements from the resort saying that I was not able to occupy the unit.

I would win, no problem. You might fight me on who has jurisdiction if you are renting a unit outside of CA. That would be a tougher call.

 

[Bxian]

Getting back to the original topic.......

Shifty, would you consider Florida? Boston will soon be a Southwest Air city. We have consistently been able to grab fares f0r $200 or less r/t to Florida from Philadelphia or Atlantic City.

We bought at the Charter Club of Marco Beach and love it there. We stayed at a hotel near the resort on vaction a few years ago. At the time, I was still learning about timeshares (resale, via TUG of course). We walked down and took a tour. We bought a resale through the resort for a pretty reasonable price-and with no sales pressure at all. The Charter Club is part of HGVC as an affliliate. We have owned a 2 bedroom float week for 3 years. In that time, we have stayed at our home resort twice and traded into HGVC South Beach, HGVC Tuscany (Orlando) and Grand Pacific Palisades near San Diego. We are going to one of HGVC's Scotland resorts in September. I think that being able to make lunch and breakfast in the unit and grill a couple of nights has saved us money, even when you take our maintenance fees into account. We love the flexibility of HGVC. We have not booked via RCI as of yet.

I am thinking that when I retire (if that day ever comes) that we will travel off season using a combination of timeshare, Hilton hotel points and cruses. All have their positive and negative points. Right now, I have too long a vacation wish list and too little time

 

[RedDogSD]

Getting back to the original topic.......

Who the heck remembers the original topic any more? We have gone off on so mant tangents in this thread.

 

[AwayWeGo]

You Have An Excellent Case. Now, How Much Justice Can You Afford ?

In CA, you cannot use an attorney in small claims court. I think most states are like that. The total damages sought must be $5000 or less.

Can small claims judges issue injunctions & court orders, etc. ?

Just imagine -- the shady corner-cutting of some timeshare companies out there getting brought up short by order of a small claims judge.

Wouldn't that be something ?

As it is, before just about any other bar of justice other than small claims, the game isn't worth the candle. The timeshare companies know that. Nobody can afford to out-lawyer-whip them, they figure, so they're confident they can keep on getting away with playing fast & loose -- & so far they've been right.

Shux upon'm.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[RedDogSD]

Can small claims judges issue injunctions & court orders, etc. ?

Well, your monetary judgement is a form of "court order", so the answer is yes. However, no small claims court is going to sign an injunction that would stop a business from doing something because the very act of doing that may cause more damage to the business than the small claims court is authorized to do. The other side would argue that it is not in their purvue to make such an order, and the court would send it up to a higher court....which means lawyers.

It will be hard to catch a Timeshare company because the BS usually flows from the mouth, and not on paper. If someone can find a place in the contract or paperwork that says something that the TS company is supposed to do, and they are not doing, then by all means sue them. Their oral representations are not usually definitive enough. They usually just tell you stories of WHAT CAN BE DONE, but do not guarantee it. This is no different than the weight loss ads in the paper which show you some examples of people who took their drugs and lost 100 lbs or more. They always say on the bottom (weight loss shown here is not typical).

 

[RedDogSD]

Hey Shifty:

How about this place?

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-BR-Lockoff-VE...md=ViewItem&pt=Timeshares&hash=item3cad7bf188

2 Bedroom Lock off (great idea, you can get 2-4 weeks in exchange per year from one Maintenance Fee). MF of only $750. It is in Vermont, in Summer so it can probably be rented if you cannot use it. You can drive to it.

I don't live on the East Coast, but I like the looks of it.

 

[brucecz]

I do think it would be a slam dunk case in Small claims court if you rented to me and I could not check in. I would provide the court with:

Copies of the Listing on websites that you were advertising
Copies of any correspondence between us
Copies of any rental agreements that we signed
Copies of bank records showing that I paid you.
Signed or sworn statements from the resort saying that I was not able to occupy the unit.

I would win, no problem. You might fight me on who has jurisdiction if you are renting a unit outside of CA. That would be a tougher call.

Thanks, you in both of your next to last posts stated more clearly what I wanted to say and you certainly appear to know the law.

It used to be $5,000 for small claims but a judge can award triple damages and court filing costs that are about $75 to $100.

They will in most cases will not put up with delays compared other types of trails as mostly they are simple manners as RedDog pointed out. If they do not show up they in a lot of cases may lose by default. I had a deadbeat think he was smart not show up 2 times and he lost lost by default.

I then reported him to the credit breaeau and filed a contrators lien against his home after the lousy cheapstake did not pay the lousy $1,500 in the 30 days that he promised. Then when he went to buy a car on credit he was turned down he called and tryed to blame me and try make me feel sorry for him. I told him that people that do not honor their word deserve to be held accountable.
Then I got paid when he went to sell his house.

I am sure he had to pay a higher home interest rate because of his credit history.

Bruce

 

[rickandcindy23]

Hey Shifty:

How about this place?

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-BR-Lockoff-VE...md=ViewItem&pt=Timeshares&hash=item3cad7bf188

2 Bedroom Lock off (great idea, you can get 2-4 weeks in exchange per year from one Maintenance Fee). MF of only $750. It is in Vermont, in Summer so it can probably be rented if you cannot use it. You can drive to it.

I don't live on the East Coast, but I like the looks of it.

OMG! That is a gem. The place looks gorgeous. Maybe I should bid. Just kidding. :rofl:

This is a little known gem you might want to consider. The fees are pretty reasonable, too.

 

[RedDogSD]

Thanks, you in both of your next to last posts stated more clearly what I was to say and you certainly appear to know the law.

It used to be $5,000 for small claims but a jugde can award triple damages and court filing costs that are about $75 to $100.

Bruce

Bruce,

I am not familiar with the rules in WI. If the actual damages are let say $2000, can the judge give triple damages if that would exceed the Small Claims court limit? Or, can he only give double damages in that case since he has to stay within the limit.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I am sure he had to pay a higher home interest rate because of his credit history.

That's justice for ya! I think getting a judgment against that deadbeat was the best possible thing you could do for him. Maybe he learned his lesson about not paying money owed. Eventually it will cost you, and this time it was a higher interest rate on his house. This is definitely karma, if you believe in that sort of thing. He will pay that amount over and over again in a year with that higher interest rate. Serves him right. Live and learn. What other cliches can I add? :rofl:

 

[RedDogSD]

I will never need a TS in Vermont because I have 17 family members (in 7 different houses) living all around Burlington, so I always have free places to stay, but I REALLY liked the 3 TSs I saw on Ebay just now looking for Shifty. I posted the 2 bedroom lockoff. They also had a 3 bedroom lockoff, but it was for Spring/Fall so not quite as desireable (although the Fall, when the leaves change colors is my favorite time to go to Vermont) and I saw another 2 bedroom at the Trapp Family Lodge in Stowe which is a very nice place, and pretty close to Burlington.

I would be all over those if I were Shifty.

 

[AwayWeGo]

An Amazingly Good Case & Still No Affordable Justice.

It will be hard to catch a Timeshare company because the BS usually flows from the mouth, and not on paper. If someone can find a place in the contract or paperwork that says something that the TS company is supposed to do, and they are not doing, then by all means sue them. Their oral representations are not usually definitive enough. They usually just tell you stories of WHAT CAN BE DONE, but do not guarantee it.

I was not thinking of the baloney spewn by the timeshare sellers. That's in a world of its own that can best be summed up as Buyer Beware. (Remember, if the timeshare sellers' lips are moving, chances are they're lying.)

No, what I have in mind is timeshare companies that don't deposit your deeded fixed week with I-I when you request it, but instead keep your deeded el primo week for themselves while banking some el crappo off-season week into your I-I account, calling it even & daring you to try to do something about it while knowing you can't or won't.

Also, timeshare companies that do not hold Right Of First Refusal on your deed but that go right on ahead just the same as if they did, holding up willing-buyer & willing-seller transactions with a bogus ROFR claim, going so far as to pay themselves (a) an administrative fee for doing so & (b) commission on your sale for which you found the buyer yourself.

Those abuses cry out for justice. Yet justice never comes because, to the person suffering the abuse, the injury still is not worth the cost of seeking redress (e.g., attorney fees, court costs, delays, inconvenience, etc.). Not only that, the timeshare company knows it can outwait & out-lawyer-whip any regular walking-around plaintiff to a fare-thee-well & thus is apt to keep on getting away with the shady corner-cutting indefinitely.

If they get caught, they just say, "Oops, sorry. Honest mistake. My bad." But instead of mending their ways, they just revert to the same slipping & sliding next time round with somebody else's deposits, on another owner's sale, etc.

Shux upon'm.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Who Keeps Track Of That ?

I am working on a lifetime membership by recruiting TUG members. Once you get 10, you never have to worry about paying again. But it's difficult, believe me. Where do you find timeshare addicts but here on TUG? They've already joined.

Shux, I just always figured Lifetime Membership was an honorary designation awarded by the Grand Pro for various forms of service judged to be above & beyond the call of duty.

Are the same people keeping track of your progress toward coveted Lifetime Member status as the ones counting up your Referral Awards, which are good for temporary membership extensions ?

Just wondering.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[brucecz]

Bruce,

I am not familiar with the rules in WI. If the actual damages are let say $2000, can the judge give triple damages if that would exceed the Small Claims court limit? Or, can he only give double damages in that case since he has to stay within the limit.

Sorry, I am not sure as I retired in early 2001 and am not a attorney and like to be as precise as I can.

That being said, could they can go to what ever the max is today and award punitive damages if is a proven pattern?

But the $2,000 rental for one week in Wisconsin would very high from a private owner. I think our 2 bedrooms at The Rushes in Door County Wisconsin is $300 per night for the prime summer weeks through the resort, but we months ago rented our week 26 out for $1,500 this year.

The ebay company in the ad you pointed out was easy for us to work with last year.

Bruce

 

[AwayWeGo]

Hold On There Just 1 Minute.

However, no small claims court is going to sign an injunction that would stop a business from doing something because the very act of doing that may cause more damage to the business than the small claims court is authorized to do. The other side would argue that it is not in their purvue to make such an order, and the court would send it up to a higher court....which means lawyers.

What about an injunction forbidding a business from doing things it's not spozed to be doing in the 1st place, regardless of how much "damage" the business might suffer if it can't keep on getting away with it ?

Or is the discontinuance of further ill-gotten gains considered "damage" that might bump into jurisdictional limits of small claims court ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​