Let's find out how many resale owners are out there.

[thinze3]

We always hear that only a small fraction of MVCI owners are resale owners. Just recently a Tugger posted that he/she was told that it was less than 2%. I think it would be interesting to see how many we run across when we are out and about at the various resorts in the coming weeks.

So, if you are at or are planning on going to a Marriott resort soon, why don't you poke around a bit and find out. Of course this can be sensitive information to many so the atmosphere would have to be right, like around the pool or the BBQ area.

There are many times that I sit around and BBQ with a cold beverage and chat with other timeshare owners. This to me would be a prime time to ask the questions, "Do you own a Marriott timeshare? Did you guys buy your timeshare from Marriott or did you buy resale?"

My gut feeling tells me that the percentage of owners who bought resale is actually much higher than we are led to believe, especially at the older resorts.

After you ask the question, please come back to Tug and post your responses. Example, "I spoke to four different people and two were resale owners."


P.S. - Do not post Tug ownership because I think these numbers would be skewed.

P.S.S. - Do not turn this into a debate about direct vs indirect buyers.

 

[Fredm]

See my post on the subject, here.

 

[kjd]

I'm not sure how this would work since the first owners are always direct buyers. Maybe that's how the sales staff got its' numbers. At an older resort I would think that there would be a lot of resales outside of Marriott's resale dept.

The question of Marriott incentives on resales is another consideration. Did Marriott ever offer incentives to resale buyers or did they restrict it to newly developed properties? I'm sure that some resale buyers who brought through Marriott consider themselves as having bought direct even though they paid less than the original owners.

I believe what you're asking is how many present owners bought from someone other than Marriott.

 

[SueDonJ]

A resale-by-Marriott IS a developer-direct purchase. The buyer purchases through a Marriott sales office, pays developer-direct prices and gets whatever incentives are in effect on the day of the sale. (In most cases, that price is more, not less, than the original pre-construction or first-offering prices.) Or, if the program begun last year because of the terrible economic conditions is utilized, the transaction goes through an external Marriott-sanctioned agent and the buyer pays a (15%? fixed) reduced cost but gets no incentives. In either scenario, the week is considered for all intents and purposes to be a developer-direct purchase and the MRP-exchange benefit transfers with the sale to the new owner.

 

[thinze3]

...
I believe what you're asking is how many present owners bought from someone other than Marriott.

Exactly. I should have clarified the request a little better.

See my post on the subject, here.

Yes, Fred. I think it would be good to come up with a count of our own. Those posting here, however, need to be concise and not post hearsay as a matter of fact.

If you don't ask the question directly, don't post it.

.

 

[SueDonJ]

Good idea in theory, Terry, but you won't find me asking that question at a resort. It's bad enough reading the "... One born every minute, as they say ..." crap here on TUG, why would I invite that smug attitude to vacation with me?

 

[Fredm]

Exactly. I should have clarified the request a little better.




Yes, Fred. I think it would be good to come up with a count of our own. Those posting here, however, need to be concise and not post hearsay as a matter of fact.

If you don't ask the question directly, don't post it.

.

OK.
Just went through my filed history of the last 100 Marriott transactions.

Sellers who purchased directly from Marriott - 63.
Sellers who purchased from other than Marriott 37.
Buyers who purchased a resale 100.

 

[dougp26364]

See my post on the subject, here.

Interesting post and a higher number than I would have assumed.

In the end, the percentage of resale buyers really doesn't matter. The only time it matters as of this writing would be if one wants to be able to exchange their week for Marriott Rewards points. With the current cost of MF's combined with the de-valuation of Marriott Rewards points, exchanging for points isn't a good idea unless there are no other options.

Speculation about what might or might not be offered in the future is just that.......speculation.

I would expect that the number of resale buyers reading and posting on TUG would be higher than the overall average. After all, TUG preaches buy resale and save thousands.

 

[jimf41]

I think it would be easier to just find out how many Marriott owners who bought resale are TUG members. If you assume that people who bought resale found out that you could do that through TUG then you would have a number from which to interpolate data.

You could then make an educated guess about the number of folks who bought resale and never heard of or joined TUG. That would be a very small number IMO. Add the two together and divide by the number of Marriott units sold and you'd have an answer.

I don't think it would be an accurate answer but it would be better than asking people at a resort if they bought resale. I think ARDA uses 7% of TS buyers are resale buyers. Why not just use that figure?

In the end who cares? I didn't buy my units because of what someone else did or did not do. I bought them to have a nice place to go on vacation. ROFR, weeks vrs points, resale vrs direct or renting vrs owning were never really considerations in my purchase decisions.

As far as the 50% figure for resales I think it's a little ridiculous if you think about it. That would mean that for every sale a Marriott TS salesrep makes there is another sale on a website like TUG, Redweek E-Bay etc. If you look at these sites and keep track of how many ads actually are posted and how many actually appear to have been sold you will notice that MVCI would go out of business overnight if they only sold as many units as appears on the websites.

 

[Fredm]

As far as the 50% figure for resales I think it's a little ridiculous if you think about it. That would mean that for every sale a Marriott TS salesrep makes there is another sale on a website like TUG, Redweek E-Bay etc. If you look at these sites and keep track of how many ads actually are posted and how many actually appear to have been sold you will notice that MVCI would go out of business overnight if they only sold as many units as appears on the websites.

If you really think about it, the numbers are far different than you suppose.

If 1% of the owner base sells in any given year, that is 4000 resales per year. Marriott is actively selling a handful of resorts (and not doing well lately) Owners are selling at all 52 of them.

 

[SueDonJ]

... In the end who cares? ...

I think the numbers are getting so much attention lately because it's been rumored that external resales will have to pay a higher initiation fee to join whatever internal exchange points system Marriott may be rolling out. One thought is that Marriott may be sabotaging its initial success with that (as yet unannounced) program, if external resales make up a substantial portion of the overall existing owner population.

Other than that, resale v. direct plays a significant role in many TUG discussions and it would be helpful to have an actual figure as a point of reference. Has anybody ever tried simply writing and asking a VIP in the MVCI offices?

... I think ARDA uses 7% of TS buyers are resale buyers. Why not just use that figure? ...

Works for me.

 

[dougp26364]

I think the numbers are getting so much attention lately because it's been rumored that external resales will have to pay a higher initiation fee to join whatever internal exchange points system Marriott may be rolling out. One thought is that Marriott may be sabotaging its initial success with that (as yet unannounced) program, if external resales make up a substantial portion of the overall existing owner population.

Other than that, resale v. direct plays a significant role in many TUG discussions and it would be helpful to have an actual figure as a point of reference. Has anybody ever tried simply writing and asking a VIP in the MVCI offices?



Works for me.

I guess one could look at it this way.

If resale buyers have to pay a higher price to join and, if that price is to high and, if 40% of Marriott owners are resale owners then, the new program will probably land with a huge THUD.

If 40% are resales and they choose not to join any new program then there will be at least 40% still trading week for week. If a large number of those who bought direct refuse to pay to join any new program, there's still going to be a lot of availability in the week for week trading system. So there won't be any worries about not joining some new internal exhcange system.

It's fun to speculate but, until we see something in writing, that's all we're doing. We're guessing just the same as I suspect Marriott's sales staff is doing.

 

[SueDonJ]

If you really think about it, the numbers are far different than you suppose.

If 1% of the owner base sells in any given year, that is 4000 resales per year. Marriott is actively selling a handful of resorts (and not doing well lately) Owners are selling at all 52 of them.

But some of those 1% of owners are selling through Marriott. Although in the last year Marriott has suspended the practices of actively soliciting owners for inventory and adding to existing waiting lists of owners who want to sell, it is still possible for a buyer to contact Marriott and ask them for specific week(s) at any resort. Resales by Marriott at all resorts are continuing, just not at the former pace.

 

[Fredm]

But some of those 1% of owners are selling through Marriott. Although in the last year Marriott has suspended the practices of actively soliciting owners for inventory and adding to existing waiting lists of owners who want to sell, it is still possible for a buyer to contact Marriott and ask them for specific week(s) at any resort. Resales by Marriott at all resorts are continuing, just not at the former pace.

OK. In the spirit of the OP's intention, I have posted a factual count of 100 real owners. 63 purchased from Marriott. 37 did not.

 

[m61376]

OK. In the spirit of the OP's intention, I have posted a factual count of 100 real owners. 63 purchased from Marriott. 37 did not.

Interesting- that pretty much correlates with what you had posted in the other thread as having been told at a MVCI meeting- that 40% of units owned were resale units.

That's actually a higher number than I had anticipated. You are right, though- as resorts age, there will be more and more resale units. Perhaps that is what is fueling the rumored change in the MVCI program. IF that's true, and IF there is a new program, Doug is right that if current resales aren't grandfathered the current system will continue to thrive and business may continue more or less as usual.

 

[jimf41]

OK. In the spirit of the OP's intention, I have posted a factual count of 100 real owners. 63 purchased from Marriott. 37 did not.

Yes but this is only representative of a group of owners who desired to sell their units. To make it a fair comparison you would have to include equivalent figures of those who did not desire to sell their units. I don't think that's a number that could be accurately determined.

Another way of looking at your figures would be to say that the 63 who bought from MVCI count as 63 sales. The 37 who bought resale count as 74 sales. 37 resale and because MVCI sold those units originally another 37 direct sales. that's 37 resales out of 137 total sales. Now that brings us down to 27% resales. Still an inaccurate number but nowhere close to 40-50% being bandied about on TUG threads.

I wonder what George Gallup or Scott Rasmussen would think of our collective attempts on polling?

 

[ondeadlin]

Another way of looking at your figures would be to say that the 63 who bought from MVCI count as 63 sales. The 37 who bought resale count as 74 sales. 37 resale and because MVCI sold those units originally another 37 direct sales. that's 37 resales out of 137 total sales. Now that brings us down to 27% resales. Still an inaccurate number but nowhere close to 40-50% being bandied about on TUG threads.

That's inaccurate math, because the issue in question really is, "What percentage of current Marriott owners bought resale?"

Why? Because this question came up in context of wondering how motivated Marriott will be to provide access (for a fee, of course) to any new points system for resale purchasers.

When addressing that issue, it doesn't matter at all whether the week was ONCE sold by the developer - as every week is - only whether the current purchaser was a non-developer purchaser.

 

[SueDonJ]

OK.
Just went through my filed history of the last 100 Marriott transactions.

Sellers who purchased directly from Marriott - 63.
Sellers who purchased from other than Marriott 37.
Buyers who purchased a resale 100.

OK. In the spirit of the OP's intention, I have posted a factual count of 100 real owners. 63 purchased from Marriott. 37 did not.

Okay, but first where did you get these numbers from? What does your "filed history" consist of - actual Marriott corporate figures of every Marriott interval sold during a certain time period, or a personal compilation gleaned from available resale sources (such as public records of transfers, etc?) You say they're all "resale" so where are the sold first-offering and/or pre-construction figures which correlate to the same time period of your resale figures?

 

[thinze3]

If you are checking in this weekend, ask a few people.

I think that the best representation would be from actual owners at various resorts.

Though Fred's number may be from his sellers, that number could still be skewed ever so slightly for various reasons. Maybe those who sell are people like me who are not afraid to buy an under priced resale unit just because it is under priced. On the other hand, maybe his numbers are spot on.

 

[Fredm]

Okay, but first where did you get these numbers from? What does your "filed history" consist of - actual Marriott corporate figures of every Marriott interval sold during a certain time period, or a personal compilation gleaned from available resale sources (such as public records of transfers, etc?) You say they're all "resale" so where are the sold first-offering and/or pre-construction figures which correlate to the same time period of your resale figures?

Susan,

I am a secondary market broker.
All I did was look at the last 100 Marriott sales in my files.
I don't know what they represent in the "big picture". They were simply 100 Marriott owners. 63 of the sellers purchased directly from Marriott. 37 of them did not.
Some have owned for 15 years. Others less than a year.

What's your point?
Owners are owners. Same as any random poll.

 

[SueDonJ]

Susan,

I am a secondary market broker.
All I did was look at the last 100 Marriott sales in my files.
I don't know what they represent in the "big picture". They were simply 100 Marriott owners. 63 of the sellers purchased directly from Marriott. 37 of them did not.

Thanks, Fred, I didn't know that about you. From your figures we can make the educated guess that +/-40% of resale buyers are external buyers, right? But the question about how many of the overall ownership base are external resale buyers remains unanswered, until we can get the numbers of existing Marriott-direct-purchased first-offering and pre-construction owners.

{edited to add} Just saw your edit after posting ... no point other than to fit your data into Terry's original question. I certainly didn't mean any offense and hope you didn't take any.

 

[JimIg23]

I Has anybody ever tried simply writing and asking a VIP in the MVCI office?

This will be the only way to know, anything else is probably way off the mark. I am pretty certain MCV know exactly what precentage of owners bought resale (not from Marriott). Since they put the big "R" in their system for resale owners, it is probably a quick computer run.

 

[jimf41]

That's inaccurate math, because the issue in question really is, "What percentage of current Marriott owners bought resale?"

Right, and Fred's numbers do not represent all current MVCI owners. They only represent 100 current dissatisfied MVCI owners. If they aren't disatisfied then why would they be selling?

Why? Because this question came up in context of wondering how motivated Marriott will be to provide access (for a fee, of course) to any new points system for resale purchasers.

I don't see a reference to that in the original post.


When addressing that issue, it doesn't matter at all whether the week was ONCE sold by the developer - as every week is - only whether the current purchaser was a non-developer purchaser.

OK, but don't try to assume that there have been 400,000 MVCI resales to match to match the 400,000 MVCI units. BTW I thought that MVCI had about 550,000 units sold.

As a side note, I probably know about 20 MVCI owners personally. I only know one who bought resale. That person bought two direct and three resale.

 

[taffy19]

We are at the MOC now and I have asked two couples only because it has to be at the right moment. They bought direct and come back every year.

On our block are three families who bought from Marriott direct and all in HI. They didn't know that we owned for many years and I didn't know either.

 

[Latravel]

As a side note, I probably know about 20 MVCI owners personally. I only know one who bought resale. That person bought two direct and three resale.

I am like you. I know approximately 35 Marriott timeshare owners who are family friends and none have purchased resale. Not one. Only a few know about TUG.