California red light tickets - need GPS unit info

[nickelbet]

Hello,

I had four weeks of staying at the Harbortown Point in Ventura ending 2/21 that was posted for sale. I made an update where I blithely noted that I suspected that I was about to receive a a robocop red light citation. The hurt set in when I found out the amount............here is more of the story!


The stay would have been more pleasant if I hadn't received a red light photo-citation. I had noticed that a big percentage of lights in the area were noted as "photo-enforced". I received photo evidence that I was .02 seconds short of making it into an intersection on a light that the yellow duration was set to the minimum. I argued the case as part of a nolo plea. Judge pretty much said "tough luck - CA needs the money!". The base fine was $100 but there are penalty assessments and other fees bringing the total to
get this $446!!!
To add further insult, for an additional $70 I could sign up for traffic school, pay $275 tuition and not have the ticket appear on my record!

In doing research for this I found that many of these intersections also cite right turn on red violations at the same rate for not stopping a full two seconds at the crosswalk before turning. This is twice the insult and about ten times the revenue windfall.

I had never bothered to get a GPS device, but I found that many of the devices allow a set of intersections with robo-cop to be downloaded and and an audible warning sounded upon proximity. This feature alone makes a GPS device more than cost effective, more like rape preventative! (a further note-Arizona is experimenting with revenue enhancement via robocop speed trap tickets. GPS may not help with this because the units are mobile and have a 500 meter range)

Anyway, I am asking my friends for recommendations on whether their GPS devices work in this preventative mode. I am looking to buy the least expensive unit that can keep this from happening again.

 

[Pens_Fan]

Or you could just stop when the light turns red.

 

[dougp26364]

Or you could just stop when the light turns red.

Ditto.

Not to sound harsh but you need to either learn to stop when the lights are changing or pay closer attention to your driving. My step son had his car totaled by a driver who missed when they thought they could beat a yellow light.

Save the money on the GPS. Stop at traffic lights when they're changing from yellow to red. Nothing in this world is worth the 3 or 4 minutes you might save and the cost can be tragic.

There's a reason those red light tickets are costly. It's to make you think and maybe get you to actually stop rather than run the light.

 

[PigsDad]

Ah geez, here we go again...

I'll buck the trend and just try to address the OP's question.

I know the Garmin Nuvi line will do what you want (as well as others I'm sure, but that is the brand I have had experience with). If you search the web, there are tons of Points of Interest (POI) databases out there for free. There are also some subscription services that claim to keep their databases updated even for mobile speedtrap units, and I think with certain GPS models, you can keep the GPS up to date via a bluetooth connection to your cell phone so it can be updated on the fly.

Kurt

 

[Passepartout]

Kurt, are those Nuvi's that advertise 'lifetime traffic updates' the ones you refer to? I wondered if that would be worth the price, 'cause I sure don't need to know about traffic jams in my one-horse-town.

Jim Ricks

 

[falmouth3]

I have a Nuvi with the traffic jam updates. So far I haven't found that to be a useful feature - as I said, so far. I was in a traffic jam and the Nuvi didn't tell us about it until after we had passed the problem area. Also, it tells you miles ahead of a 3 minute delay, etc. By the time you get there, it's gone. I'm not sure how it calculates the delays, but if there's an accident and it's a 5 minute delay, then it seems that you won't know about it until you're through the jam.

But we haven't run into any big delays where this feature may prove very useful.

Sue

 

[Kozman]

Kurt, are those Nuvi's that advertise 'lifetime traffic updates' the ones you refer to? I wondered if that would be worth the price, 'cause I sure don't need to know about traffic jams in my one-horse-town.

Jim Ricks

Lifetime traffic updates refers to traffic jams, construction zones. For a red light camera, etc. you need to download a special POI (points of interest) database.

 

[PigsDad]

Kurt, are those Nuvi's that advertise 'lifetime traffic updates' the ones you refer to? I wondered if that would be worth the price, 'cause I sure don't need to know about traffic jams in my one-horse-town.

I may have been mistaken, but I thought there was a way to download POIs on the fly from your cell phone web connection directly to a blue-tooth enabled Garmin. Then you could use one of the subscription services that claim to have updated speed trap, etc. POIs. Another option is to use a GPS app on a smart phone, and then that would definitely be able to get those updates on the road. One such service (and there are many) via a quick Google search is www.phantomalert.com


Kurt

 

[ricoba]

We locals and visitors had better get used to these darn photo traffic devices. Localities have found that this are great money makers, as you can see from a $446 ticket.

LA City Council debated lowering the ticket price because as one councilor said, these rates are punitive, but I am sure it's gonna be a cold day you know where before they ever lower the fine or stop using these things.

 

[UWSurfer]

You know there are a lot of issue surrounding these and I just deleted a LONG reply on how I can be on both sides of the issue.

I'll simply say as a cyclist who commutes to work by bike several days a week, drivers running red lights are a particular concern for obvious reasons. Please folks pay attention, don't drive distracted with your phone &/or texting and watch your speed please.

 

[pjrose]

We locals and visitors had better get used to these darn photo traffic devices. Localities have found that this are great money makers, as you can see from a $446 ticket.

LA City Council debated lowering the ticket price because as one councilor said, these rates are punitive, but I am sure it's gonna be a cold day you know where before they ever lower the fine or stop using these things.

Isn't punitive part of the idea? (with deterrent the other part.)

 

[ScoopKona]

You know there are a lot of issue surrounding these and I just deleted a LONG reply on how I can be on both sides of the issue.

I'll simply say as a cyclist who commutes to work by bike several days a week. drivers running red lights are a particular concern for obvious reasons. Please folks pay attention, don't drive distracted with your phone &/or texting and watch your speed please.

I wish they'd install these in Las Vegas. I have been in a couple minor rear-end collisions stopping at red lights. The moron behind me assumed I was going to run the red light -- just like everyone else here seems to do -- and hit me. Neither time resulted in any damage. But three or four people run the red at nearly every intersection in town. It's annoying and dangerous.

In Germany, running a red light is 4 points, a $400 fine, and a one-month suspension. Even running a light that was red for less than a second is 3 points and a $180 fine. That sounds reasonable to me. In fact, I would like to take most of Germany's traffic laws and adopt them here. Particularly DUI laws.

 

[cotraveller]

I wish they'd install these in Las Vegas. I have been in a couple minor rear-end collisions stopping at red lights. The moron behind me assumed I was going to run the red light -- just like everyone else here seems to do -- and hit me. Neither time resulted in any damage. But three or four people run the red at nearly every intersection in town. It's annoying and dangerous.

That is not an issue unique to Las Vegas. We travel a fair amount by car and I do not recall anywhere that people stop for red lights when they should. The rule everywhere seems to be:

• The light is green, no problem.
• The light is yellow, speed up and get through.
• The light is red, look out, 3 more cars are coming through.

I suspect every one of us has gone through a light a time or few when we should have stopped but I have also had cars behind me swerve to the other lane to go around me and through the light when I have stopped.

The photo enforcement zones that I have seen, primarily in Colorado and Arizona, are plainly marked well in advance. If you are paying attention to your driving you should not be surprised by them.

 

[ricoba]

You know there are a lot of issue surrounding these and I just deleted a LONG reply on how I can be on both sides of the issue.

I also had a long post and then deleted it also.

I don't think that unless one has either lived here or is a regular visitor here they can really comment on how extremely challenging LA traffic can be. There are many times that it isn't as black and white as simply stopping at a red light, (which of course is obvious) but there are so many cars doing their own thing you often have to use "creative driving" to get around without getting injured etc.

I think that these devices do have some purpose, but I also think that our local politicians have found this as a great new source of revenue.

Isn't punitive part of the idea? (with deterrent the other part.)

Yes, but believe it or not our city (all of Los Angeles metro) is filled with millions of people who are bringing home a minimum wage and for these people $446 is perhaps two weeks pay or more. This is my mind is unreasonable. Especially since I do believe these devices are being used as revenue for cash strapped cities and not just for safety purposes.

And please, don't suggest that these folks take the bus. Whether you agree or not, Los Angeles is a car culture, and getting around by public transportation is just not as easy as it is in other large cities (for example in our own state, San Francisco).

 

[pjrose]

Isn't punitive part of the idea? (with deterrent the other part.)

Yes, but believe it or not our city (all of Los Angeles metro) is filled with millions of people who are bringing home a minimum wage and for these people $446 is perhaps two weeks pay or more. This is my mind is unreasonable.

ok, then it's excessively punitive. OP said the original fine was $100, and the rest was tacked on. It is high.

I'm not familiar with LA driving, and terrified of city driving, but I can understand that it's different than stopping / not stopping here in the boonies. Of course people should stop, but I recognize the point about creative driving as noted in another post.

What I wonder about in this instance is .02 seconds. Two hundredths of a second? Isn't that subject to some margin of error? If a light is yellow the driver has to make a quick decision about the relative safety of stopping (and being hit in the rear) or going (and hitting red). I'm not sure what the .02 seconds measures - the time already in the intersection at the moment the light turned red? Or the time entering the intersection after the light turned red? or ??

 

[oneohana]

I had the great experience of having a driver honk at me because I came to a complete stop before makingg a right hand turn at a red light. There was even a person in the cross walk at the time.

 

[ScoopKona]

Yes, but believe it or not our city (all of Los Angeles metro) is filled with millions of people who are bringing home a minimum wage and for these people $446 is perhaps two weeks pay or more. This is my mind is unreasonable. Especially since I do believe these devices are being used as revenue for cash strapped cities and not just for safety purposes.

I have absolutely no sympathy for red-light runners. People should stop at yellow lights unless it is unsafe. That's the European way, and it is superior to our system of "Green means go, red means stop if you have to, and yellow means go as fast as you can to beat the light."

If inconsiderate drivers are being slapped with $450 tickets, good! I wish we did that here, as well. Nevada has budget shortfalls, too. Let inconsiderate drivers subsidize my taxes. Serves 'em right.

In Germany it would be $400 and no license for a month. $450 doesn't go far enough, if you ask me.

I've heard the "red light cameras are bad" arguments before. Most of the arguments are of this variety: "Well, what happens if I'm under an intersection, and traffic stops in front of me, and the light turns red? That's unfair!"

That's called "blocking an intersection" and is a ticket in itself in most places. People who can't clear the intersection need to stop in front of it. Anyone who is under a red light deserves what they get.

The other argument I see all the time is: "Well, it's been proven that red light cameras INCREASE accidents."

True. There will be an increase in rear-end collisions. That will subside when people get it through their thick skulls that red means stop. And yellow means stop if it is safe to do so.

Since we cannot legislate courtesy, we may as well tax the hell out of inconsiderate drivers. Eventually they'll either get the message or they'll rack up enough points on their licenses that they'll have to take the bus. Win-win, if you ask me.

 

[ricoba]

That's the European way, .

....and which part of Europe is Los Angeles in?

 

[ricoba]

ok, then it's excessively punitive. OP said the original fine was $100, and the rest was tacked on. It is high.

I'm not familiar with LA driving, and terrified of city driving, but I can understand that it's different than stopping / not stopping here in the boonies. Of course people should stop, but I recognize the point about creative driving as noted in another post.

What I wonder about in this instance is .02 seconds. Two hundredths of a second? Isn't that subject to some margin of error? If a light is yellow the driver has to make a quick decision about the relative safety of stopping (and being hit in the rear) or going (and hitting red). I'm not sure what the .02 seconds measures - the time already in the intersection at the moment the light turned red? Or the time entering the intersection after the light turned red? or ??

Here is the article from the LA Times talking about the revenue generating hot potato this issue is becoming.

This is the quote I was referring to in my original post.

It's from LA City Councilman Dennis Zine, a former LAPD officer, ""We do all the work and they take the money. It's absurd," he said. And fines should reflect a community's economic conditions, he added.

"Why should someone who's receiving financial assistance pay these $500 tickets, when they can't even pay the rent and put food on the table?"

I think Councilman Zine's question is very reasonable to ask about the price of these tickets (and BTW, I have never gotten one thankfully )

 

[ScoopKona]

It's from LA City Councilman Dennis Zine, a former LAPD officer, ""We do all the work and they take the money. It's absurd," he said. And fines should reflect a community's economic conditions, he added.

And who pays the LAPD's salaries? I would call that "earning your keep." Oh, those pesky police officers complaining about actually having to keep LA's streets safe. Will wonders never cease.

People do not have the right to run red lights, speed through school zones or otherwise drive like fools. If they do, they should pay. And the fines should be punitive -- otherwise they'll keep doing it. I don't see why there is even an opposing side to this issue.

One of the arguments in Las Vegas is "there are so many illegals who drive without registering their vehicles that it would be a nightmare to enforce the law." Gee whiz. Seems to me that's a good excuse to fix TWO problems -- unregistered (and uninsured) motorists who run red lights. I'd like to see BOTH groups off the roads.

 

[Fern Modena]

Scoop,
Remind me which part of the valley you live in and the make and color of your car. I don't want to be in a rear end accident when you stop when that light turns yellow and I'm behind you. My foot is always covering the brake when I reach an intersection, but I don't know about the guy behind me...

Fern

 

[BSQ]

In doing research for this I found that many of these intersections also cite right turn on red violations at the same rate for not stopping a full two seconds at the crosswalk before turning. This is twice the insult and about ten times the revenue windfall.

<snip>

This one hurts. Is there even a Californian in existence that doesn't make a "California stop" when turning right on a red?

 

[Talent312]

On of my favorite movie quotes:
-- From Starman (1984) with Jeff Bridges and Karen Allen:

Jenny....... "For your information pal, that was a *yellow* light back there!"
Starman.... "I watched you very carefully. Red light - stop, green light - go, yellow light - go very fast."

 

[pjrose]

On of my favorite movie quotes:
-- From Starman (1984) with Jeff Bridges and Karen Allen:

Jenny....... "For your information pal, that was a *yellow* light back there!"
Starman.... "I watched you very carefully. Red light - stop, green light - go, yellow light - go very fast."

That's just what I was thinking of. Good movie and funny scene!

Thanks to this thread, this afternoon I was especially careful to stop at all yellows (after checking my rear view mirror) - not to avoid a ticket, but for safety.

 

[dioxide45]

In order to keep this off topic, was the additional fees over and above the $100, court costs? If so, not fighting the citation, would it have only cost the OP $100?

I agree that people should be stopping for safely at yellow lights. We almost get hit every day at one intersection because the morning sun blinds people who can't see a yellow light or even a red one and just keep on driving, in some cases they aren't paying attention.

My issue is with privacy and are these really just a cash cow? Citations are sent to the car owners and not punitive to the person who was actually driving the car. In most cases the driver is the owner, but not always. The police could, you know, actually enforce these laws in person, police presence not only would help but also cause a decrease in other crimes. Relying on a camera to do a humans work is downright wrong. What do we pay the police to do?