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Sound familiar to anyone? Timeshare presentation lawsuit

the developers would never go for it.

and therein lies the problem....the reason is that they would have to uphold everything the salesman told them in the presentation.

Which IMO, is a perfectly valid expectation from a buyer.

If they are unable to do so, then I see no reason why the buyer should be forced to pay for something that obviously was not delivered as advertised.
 
Even a developer can make a reasonable sale and have a happy buyer

I agree that 3-5 days is too short. However, if you make the second or third biggest purchase in your life, you better cancel the rest of your vacation to make sure it was the right thing to do. If you aren't willing to cancel your vacation while you do the research, then 1) you got what you deserved and 2) you made the choice to waive your due diligence period and vacation instead.

When I made my first developer purchase, I chose to waive my vacation. I found Redweek and TUG and I decided I could get a better deal, so I cancelled.

Both a smart and maybe lucky move most for some reason don't do. We ended up in a similar situation with our first (pre-TUG) purchases as we had attended over 15 pitches and knew the one and only resort we really wanted to buy. Because of that we researched how owners were able to sell and thus discovered the fledgling resale market existed even then. The discounts weren't 70-80% as they routinely are now but 50-60% was readily found. Interestingly when presented with those numbers our first purchase ended up going through the developer as they "found a previously sold unit that has come back" that they could sell for the same price we had on resale. Being new we believed there was a difference in "new & used" (Alan hadn't posted the facts yet!) and so felt more comfortable going with the developer.

Later I found that the week had in fact never been sold before, we did get a "new" unit (or at least a first time deed issued for our unit) and all we had done is basically negotiate our purchase down to the resale level pricing of that time through the developer. Every purchase since has been at resale price with one more developer bowing to the market rate (I'm not sure any do that anymore) and the rest true resales from private owners. I'll tell you our original developer seller remained our friend as long as he worked there (about 6-7 years after we bought) and we considered him honest and the deal a good one to this day. It shows that sold on the merits and at a fair price even a developer can be a stand up seller. Too bad the number that are today may fit on a pin head with room for a an Escalade parked next to them.

As good as that was and as much as we enjoyed the promised features and plans for the resort that same developer became greedy when they held on far too long to resort management, a job they proved beyond any doubt they weren't able to handle adequately or for a reasonable price, so the good will was seriously damaged in later years. Money seems to drive even the good ones to act selflessly and forget that the buyers are the ones who control the beautiful resort they took a chance to build and sell. I for one appreciate the vision and the risk they took and don't begrudge them the money they hopefully made building the place. But once its sold they need to move on, do what they do best and leave the resort to those who own and use it.

Misrepresenting things, overpaying for sales leads and high pressure sales only tarnish what should be a wonderful, relaxed presentation of the myriad of true benefits of the resort and timeshare ownership in general offered at a price close to market resale value (assuming that the resale market had been allowed to develop in a natural way and did come close to true underlying value a timeshare week or XX points represent). That they refused to do that in large part got us where we are now and it isn't good for anyone involved in sales, resales or development. The system is barely hanging on for well managed, well maintained and those with reasonable annual fees. If any of those are wrong - poorly managed, poorly maintained or sky rocketing annual fees or special assessments and you have a resort or system that may not be able to survive. And no resale value for the owners. Hardly a robust industry to operate in and easy to see why overall sellers outnumber buyers thousands to one!
 
I'm unconvinced...

Property rights are State rights.

I'm no constitutional expert (and I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn last night either), but it certainly seems to me that the Federales could unilaterally impose a nationwide minimum standard, as they do in numerous other arenas (such as fisheries regulations, for example), which any state could then make more (but never less) restrictive. Maybe I'm mistaken, but it sure seems to me that the Feds could simply decree something like "not less than 7 days" and any and all states would simply have to comply, whether they like it or not. I'm not seeking an argument, but this matter seems to me every bit as much a "consumer contract" issue as a "property rights" issue, since timeshare contracts may (and do) also include RTU's, Club memberships, etc., in which the buyer actually owns no "property" at all in the first place, in whole or in any part... :shrug:
 
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That already exists today. It is illegal to misrepresent real estate as an agent. There are very strict laws about what is misrepresentation. If an agent lies about a product and it can be proven, then the sale can be cancelled.

... And, the end always concludes with something like, the agreement you are signing along with these facts are what you are buying. Whatever else the sales guy said doesn't count.

These statements seem to be at odds. The whole purpose of having the buyer sign such a form is to disavow responsibility for "whatever else the sales guy said" to induce the sale.

Not withstanding the above form, if misreresentations were made, can the sale be cancelled without penalty and without hiring lawyers? The buyer just deeds the property back to the developer, and he gets a refund? I doubt it.
 
7-10 days IS an extended review period. How many consumer products in the US have rescission periods greater than 10-days? Please name 5. There are hundreds or thousands of products more complicated than a timeshare.

You have made this statement many times and it is untrue. Many thousands of products sold in retail stores have a return period to that store. This in essence is a rescission period. I can buy something today and return it in 30 days to Walmart indicating that the product didn't perform the function intended, money refunded in full. There are far more than five, given the example I provided there is no need to list all retail products sold in big box retail. Some stores provide for a 90 day return period.

Though I do agree with you that there shouldn't be an extended rescission period. However I think 10 to 15 days is adequate. 7 is too short and 10 is at the bottom end. Many people go on vacation and go to TS presentations. Have you ever heard of one person canceling their vacation to research their TS purchase. :rofl: . Why would they, the developer is likely to upgrade them to the best unit on the property? No one is going to leave that.

Also many resorts try to schedule you to a presentation early in your trip so you have less time to research when you return home. Mexican resorts are notorious for this. I say the resizing period starts and the contract is dated for the last day of your stay. This wouldn't work if you are not staying at the resort, but probably about 80% of the sales are sold to people staying on site.
 
Have you ever heard of one person canceling their vacation to research their TS purchase.
I'm with Boca. If you're putting your John Q. Hancock on the line which is dotted, you either (a) need to have researched the purchase in advance, (b) need to be sure you can adequately perform your due diligence in the allotted time, whatever it may be, or (c) have your head examined.

That is, unless tens of thousands of dollars is no big deal to you. In that case, well, it's no big deal.
 
I'm with Boca. If you're putting your John Q. Hancock on the line which is dotted, you either (a) need to have researched the purchase in advance, (b) need to be sure you can adequately perform your due diligence in the allotted time, whatever it may be, or (c) have your head examined.

That is, unless tens of thousands of dollars is no big deal to you. In that case, well, it's no big deal.

After a sales presentation, what due diligence is needed? Sure we all know there is far more to it. But someone who was just hoodwinked at a TS presentation heard everything. Everything the salesperson said was true and honest. I agree that if someone pays tens of thousands of dollars and then later find out they can buy the same for a thousand don't have a lot to complain about. But those who are told they can book any week they want (July 4th in a six month platinum season), and exchange for anything they desire are truly wronged by the industry.

It should be noted that on resale transactions in Florida that if the sales contract doesn't mention the required recission period, the recission period actually turns out to be one year.
 
These statements seem to be at odds. The whole purpose of having the buyer sign such a form is to disavow responsibility for "whatever else the sales guy said" to induce the sale.

Not withstanding the above form, if misreresentations were made, can the sale be cancelled without penalty and without hiring lawyers? The buyer just deeds the property back to the developer, and he gets a refund? I doubt it.

I agree, and the sales person shouldn't be allowed to mention anything that isn't in the contract.
 
Everything the salesperson said was true and honest
Anyone who even remotely thinks this is his own worst enemy, and probably shouldn't be spending $1000 at one sitting, let alone $10,000.

It's the same as the shysters who want to rip up your basement floor and build some fancy-pants trench system around the entire perimeter to fix one leak in one corner of your basement. Of course they're going to tell you why the system they are selling is what you need---if you believe them without doing a little research, or getting a second opinion, it's your fault.

Now, to be fair, "doing the research" ten or fifteen years ago (or more) was a lot harder than "doing the research" today. Pre-Internet, seven days was probably not sufficient time to find people with the right experience to confirm or refute the sales person's claims. In the Age of Google, seven hours is more than enough, let alone seven days.

Edited to add: but, to me, that means that pre-Internet, you have no business spending $10,000 cold on a timeshare with a one-week rescind period, because you'd just know there's no way you could perform due diligence. Sure, there's the "today only" pressure, but there aren't many instances when *not* buying something was the big mistake I've made.

Edited again: plus, everything is in the fine print. You just have to read it. I can't be the only person who reviewed the entire Homeowners' Association rules, cover to cover, before waiving that condition of the purchase offer for my current house.
 
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Are you suggesting that the developer ought not be held accountable for misrepresenting the product? If he lies and the buyer believes him, is it the buyer who has erred?
 
The challenge is, most of these sales presentations are arranged early upon arrival--within the first day or two I believe. In 7 days while at the resort, if they haven't quickly gotten to investigations or due diligence while on vacation, their time is almost out by the time they get back home (based on those who are at the resort the full week).

When I made this post, my basis was that the vast majority of visitors are not savvy timeshare owners. And/or they may not even lug along a laptop or want to hit the internet while on vacation as they may want to really 'get away from it all.'

I think it's a crafty strategy to get people in the first few days of the visit to attend these meetings and get them to sign. I am not excusing the fact that people should do due diligence--I am trying to put myself in the shoes of a non-Tugger person who is relaxing on a vacation, signs up for what they think is a great deal, gets home and quickly gets absorbed back into 'real' life. First thing I'd do is some research about this great deal I got, but it may well be 8 days after I signed the papers--so sorry, too late for many contracts.
 
Are you suggesting that the developer ought not be held accountable for misrepresenting the product? If he lies and the buyer believes him, is it the buyer who has erred?
There is plenty of blame to go around, to be sure. But it takes two to tango. If the buyer isn't *also* making a $10K mistake, there is no sale.

What's more my sense is that most of the misrepresentations are not those of commission, but rather omission---after all, you *can* book July 4th in a six-month platinum season...(if you get on the phone at exactly 8AM the day reservations open, and even then it's not guaranteed.) The operative word is "can", not "will be able to". And, when you read the details, you'll see it's "can" not "will be able to." But, you have to read it.

There certainly are flat-out lies told on the sales floor, and those could well be grounds for cancellation. But, even things this egregious are typically contradicted by what's in the fine print. If you don't have enough time to read the fine print, you should rescind until you do.
 
These statements seem to be at odds. The whole purpose of having the buyer sign such a form is to disavow responsibility for "whatever else the sales guy said" to induce the sale.

Not withstanding the above form, if misreresentations were made, can the sale be cancelled without penalty and without hiring lawyers? The buyer just deeds the property back to the developer, and he gets a refund? I doubt it.

They are not at odds. If anyone can prove that the developer or their agent misrepresented the product that they bought, then they can be fined and the transaction can be cancelled.

The issue is that the burden of proof is on the buyer. When the buyer sues the developer, the first thing the developer does is pull out the recording that goes over the rules and the product they sold them. Then, the buyer has a very hard time proving that the product was misrepresented unless they have a recording of the conversations which they probably don't have. It becomes a he said, she said type of situation and the developer has a recording while the buyer doesn't.
 
You have made this statement many times and it is untrue. Many thousands of products sold in retail stores have a return period to that store. This in essence is a rescission period.

I guess you do not understand the difference between a business decision and a statutory requirement for an irrevocable rescission period.

Lots of business have return 100% guaranteed return policies. That is NOT what I am talking about. What I am talking about is a law the requires a business to provide a 100% return policy for a statutory minimum period of time.

Please name 5 products that have a STATUTORY requirement to have an irrevocable rescission period longer than 10-days. In case you didn't know, irrevocable means you cannot waive that right of rescission.

I have NO problem with business who want to provide 30-day money back guarantees or longer.

Here is the Florida Statute 721.10 regarding cancellation of a timeshare purchase:

The 2009 Florida Statutes


Title XL
REAL AND PERSONAL PROPERTY
Chapter 721
VACATION AND TIMESHARE PLANS
View Entire Chapter
721.10 Cancellation.--

(1) A purchaser has the right to cancel the contract until midnight of the 10th calendar day following whichever of the following days occurs later:

(a) The execution date; or

(b) The day on which the purchaser received the last of all documents required to be provided to him or her, including the notice required by s. 721.07(2)(d)2., if applicable.

This right of cancellation may not be waived by any purchaser or by any other person on behalf of the purchaser. Furthermore, no closing may occur until the cancellation period of the timeshare purchaser has expired. Any attempt to obtain a waiver of the cancellation right of the timeshare purchaser, or to hold a closing prior to the expiration of the cancellation period, is unlawful and such closing is voidable at the option of the purchaser for a period of 1 year after the expiration of the cancellation period. However, nothing in this section precludes the execution of documents in advance of closing for delivery after expiration of the cancellation period.

(2) Any notice of cancellation shall be considered given on the date postmarked if mailed, or when transmitted from the place of origin if telegraphed, so long as the notice is actually received by the developer or escrow agent. If given by means of a writing transmitted other than by mail or telegraph, the notice of cancellation shall be considered given at the time of delivery at the place of business of the developer.

(3) In the event of a timely preclosing cancellation, the developer shall honor the right of any purchaser to cancel the contract which granted the timeshare purchaser rights in and to the plan. Upon such cancellation, the developer shall refund to the purchaser the total amount of all payments made by the purchaser under the contract, reduced by the proportion of any contract benefits the purchaser has actually received under the contract prior to the effective date of the cancellation, as required by s. 721.06. Such refund shall be made within 20 days of demand therefor by the purchaser or within 5 days after receipt of funds from the purchaser's cleared check, whichever is later.
 
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Have you ever heard of one person canceling their vacation to research their TS purchase.

Not only have I heard of one. I DID IT myself. I spent my anniversary online researching my purchase. It took me only a few hours to decide I needed to cancel my purchase. It took me actually longer to cancel it since I was worried that some technicality would prevent me from cancelling.

I think more people should accept the accountability of their purchases. If everyone did, then the types of issues we seem to have with developers would be minimal.
 
Are you suggesting that the developer ought not be held accountable for misrepresenting the product? If he lies and the buyer believes him, is it the buyer who has erred?

A developer should absolutely be held accountable for misrepresenting their product. The issue is whether or not they put in safe guards to prevent it where possible. That's the purpose of the confirmation interview. In addition, there has to be proof that the product was misrepresented. That's why I am in favor of recorded sales presentations. Without such recordings, it's he said, she said.

I honestly don't know a priori if the developer lied or the the buyer read too much into the sales guys statements.
 
I have no idea why we're going back and forth with all the legal talk.

To me, this thread is about opinions, which everyone is entitled to. My opinion that I've stated, is that the rescission period should be extended to a period that gives the buyer a fairer amount of time to do their due diligence. Especially when you consider that people may still be on vacation during some of the corresponding time period.

Another of my opinions is that the timeshare sales industry misrepresents and lies about their product. Can you absolutely prove it in many cases? No, but we all know it happens. So, then you end up with an industry running rampant with liars and cheats. I think that we deserve better, especially when you consider the many positive aspects of vacationing.

Last of all, I personally would welcome any government or legal intervention to help solve some of these issues. Again, my opinions only. I guess the legal talk addresses the current situation, but I personally would sure like to see some changes and further protection for the buyer.
 
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I have no idea why we're going back and forth with all the legal talk.

Because we are expressing our opinions, just like you are.

In addition, we are providing more insight into the issues so that people can understand why things are as they are. This will give them an idea of whether or not their desired end state has a snow balls chance in hell.

More importantly, it provides information on who is accountable for what and a model for buyers to protect themselves. This is what we should be teaching in our schools... how to protect ourselves from those who want to scam us.
 
The most simple solution is always the one people poo-poo and then look for something more complicated. Most rational people (and the law on fraud) agree that a salesperson should not be able to misrepresent the terms of the sale. [If you disagree, stop reading here...]

People have suggested legally requiring a recording of the presentation that is given to the buyer at the end of the presentation. This would make the recission period unecessary as the buyer would have evidence of any false statement that induced the sale and could sue for fraud. But as some have suggested the developers "would never go for this.." The reason why is obvious.

If developers were not worried about salespeople lying, they would institute this themselves, to prove nothing false was relayed and to protect themselves (much as police video-record stops to prove no misconduct occurred.)

But alas, this is too simple a solution and sales-weasels could no longer rampantly commit fraud...
 
So cars should have 30 day rescission periods, too? Your logic won't sway any lawmakers anywhere. The bottom line is that 7-10 days is plenty of time for any diligent buyer to go to a PC and type "timeshare resale" into google or to call their attorney.

Almost everyone who buys a new car does months of research before signing on the dotted line. They often times purchase reports from consumer-oriented companies that show the dealer's real cost, and offer info about negotiating the best reasonable price. There are also many magazines and web sites that provide reviews, including government ratings, of all of the models available, and the average selling price of each model. Ads are placed in newspapers and, by government regulation, must contain factual information, although it may be necessary to use a magnifying glass to read it all. But it is there.

Not so with timeshare presentations. I attend them regularly just to keep up- to-date on the latest lies and spiels being used by salespeople to dupe their victims. It's outrageous how much blatant dishonesty is still going on. At one particular resort, I spend an inordinate amount of my vacation time each year "saving" people in time to rescind their purchase. Many made the purchase based upon one particular LIE that has been used by the sales staff for 3 years. I have been able to show the purchasers where in writing, in very fine print on about page 30 of a 50 page "contract" it says the exact opposite of what they had been told verbally.

It's amazing that this outrageous activity is still going on after all these years. I can't think of any other major industry that can operate like this without running afoul of government regulations, rules, or laws.

I've been told that we have ARDA to "thank" for lobbying against attempts to have Federal regulations passed that would prevent this type of activity during timeshare presentations nation-wide. That's why many of us decline to pay the optional $3.00 ARDA "contribution" that is added to most annual maintenance fee bills.

Boca, another flaw in your car purchase analogy is that the buyer drives off in his newly purchased vehicle, and it loses value the minute he does. But a timeshare purchase from a developer will not be used by the buyer until some date in the future. Many times he is buying points or floating time, not a particular unit. and seldom a "brand new" unit that has not already been occupied by someone else. There is no depreciation issue involved. So if he rescinds within 30 days, there is no loss of value except to the sales snake who didn't deserve to reap the large commission in the first place.

One of our most loved purchase was at the Royal Resorts in Cancun. While vacationing there on an exchange, we were invited to attend a no-pressure lunch with a saleslady who discussed the advantages of owning at the Royals. She gave us a fact- filled booklet written in easy to understand language, and told us to take it home and discuss it with trusted advisers. If we were interested, we could call her anytime and have a contract mailed to us. She called us only once, about 2 weeks later, to ask if we had any questions. We gave it a lot of thought and did research before deciding to purchase. We had the choice of a "new" week or resale and chose the latter. (There actually were some legitimate advantages to buying a "new" week!). We made the "We are ready to buy" call 7 weeks later. No pressure, no regrets.

The Royal Resorts consistently receive top ratings from TUGgers and on tripadvisor.com. They have very loyal happy owners, many of whom "re-upped" when the 30 year right to use expired in 2007. I mention this only to illustrate that an honest, no pressure sales model can work.
 
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The most simple solution is always the one people poo-poo and then look for something more complicated. Most rational people (and the law on fraud) agree that a salesperson should not be able to misrepresent the terms of the sale. [If you disagree, stop reading here...]

People have suggested legally requiring a recording of the presentation that is given to the buyer at the end of the presentation. This would make the recission period unecessary as the buyer would have evidence of any false statement that induced the sale and could sue for fraud. But as some have suggested the developers "would never go for this.." The reason why is obvious.

If developers were not worried about salespeople lying, they would institute this themselves, to prove nothing false was relayed and to protect themselves (much as police video-record stops to prove no misconduct occurred.)

But alas, this is too simple a solution and sales-weasels could no longer rampantly commit fraud...

Sales people in ALL industries lie.
 
Almost everyone who buys a new car does months of research before signing on the dotted line.

Where did you get that statistic? I think most people don't know how to do the research to buy a car. I think most pick a car they like that they saw in a commercial or on the street, try to figure out where they can get it for the best price, hope that someone will finance it and put very little thought into the process at all.

I don't like the fact that timeshares are sold the way they are today. I don't like how the entire sales and marketing model works. It encourages all the wrong behaviors in people on both the buyer and the seller side. The problem is that I don't have a better model.

I also don't like how timeshare buyers get trapped into timeshares they can't afford and they shouldn't have bought with a loan. However, MOST of the blame, I put on the buyers for not exercising their right to protect themselves from potential scammers. We need to teach people how to protect themselves. Then, the scams won't work.

If someone goes to a sales presentation to get a free gift and makes a $10,000 purchase without knowing what they bought, it's their fault if it doesn't work out. If the developer lies and they can prove it, then the developer should be heavily penalized. But, buyers get scammed because they let themselves get scammed.
 
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