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Is Starwood management failing owners ?

Owners need to ask themsleves a few questions to see if they are better off with Starwood or are they better off having a different management company. Try these for starters.

1. Is Starwood effective at keeping maintenance fee increases to a reasonable level ? Nope, they fail that test.

2. Does Starwood have good communication with owners? Nope, failed that test really badly.

3. Is Starwood taking ALL owners into consideration when making changes to its policies? Well we all know the answer to that one. A big resounding " NO"

4. Is Starwood listening to owners complaints? Certainly not yet. And most owners complaints have been answered only by a form letter, which judging by the emails I have gotten, only makes owners more angry.

5. Is Starwood being honest with owners and abiding by my resorts governing documents? I cant speak for all resorts, but for SDO and SBP owners, the answer is no.

6. Since Starwood is such a well known brand, does having Starwood as my management company help keep resale prices up, similar to Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton etc ? Nope, fails that one too. Other prime season branded resorts dont sell for $1 on EBAY or worse, go unsold.

For many owners of many resorts its time to look to dump Starwood.
IMO, there is no reason why owners should pay excessive management fees to Starwood when they arent doing their job.
 
Owners need to ask themsleves a few questions to see if they are better off with Starwood or are they better off having a different management company. Try these for starters.

1. Is Starwood effective at keeping maintenance fee increases to a reasonable level ? Nope, they fail that test.

2. Does Starwood have good communication with owners? Nope, failed that test really badly.

3. Is Starwood taking ALL owners into consideration when making changes to its policies? Well we all know the answer to that one. A big resounding " NO"

4. Is Starwood listening to owners complaints? Certainly not yet. And most owners complaints have been answered only by a form letter, which judging by the emails I have gotten, only makes owners more angry.

5. Is Starwood being honest with owners and abiding by my resorts governing documents? I cant speak for all resorts, but for SDO and SBP owners, the answer is no.

6. Since Starwood is such a well known brand, does having Starwood as my management company help keep resale prices up, similar to Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton etc ? Nope, fails that one too. Other prime season branded resorts dont sell for $1 on EBAY or worse, go unsold.

For many owners of many resorts its time to look to dump Starwood.
IMO, there is no reason why owners should pay excessive management fees to Starwood when they arent doing their job.

I agree with everyting above, but have one comment regarding Point 6 above.

Voluntary resorts, which have the ability to trade via SVN, do command higher resale values. WKV sells for quite a bit more than SDO, WKORV sells for quite a bit more than WPORV, and SVV for quite a bit more than SVR. Owners at these resorts (and to a lesser extent HRA and WSJ) would be concerned about impact on resale values and those concerns would impact their choice. If a new management company had good internal trading opportunities (whether they keep the Staroptions, or some other system that would work) those concerns could be mitigated.
 
I can understand why Starwood might want to (or have to) sell, but I sure can't imagine why Hyatt or Hilton would want to buy it.

Like I mentioned above, Hilton has very limited locations - Orlando, Vegas, Hawaii (not Maui or Kauai) and NYC. If Hilton has nice resorts in Maui & Kauai, and those beautiful properties on westcoast & Caribbean, it will compliment Hilton system and will sell much better.
I love Hilton's online reservation system, reasonable Open season prices & availabilities, their respectful manner to resale buyers, wonderful management.
 
If Starwood was dumped right now, how easily could it be done? Starwood must have some clauses in their managerial contract that set out a specified length of time they must manage the resorts. Can they be removed before their contract is up or would there have to be a payment of some kind to Starwood for premature termination of the managerial contract?
 
Title should be Starwood has FAILED owners - not just are they failing

I am so disappointed and disgusted by this company
 
Owners at these (mandatory) resorts (and to a lesser extent HRA and WSJ) would be concerned about impact on resale values and those concerns would impact their choice.

Red edits are mine.

I think most owners in Maui, HRA, and WSJ bought because they wanted to visit there as they've always had the highest MFs, relatively speaking, compared to other Starwood resorts. So I don't think it'd be a huge issue, especially if a new firm were to manage the property more efficiently. And there's always II or direct exchanging. As far as SVN goes, I now think SVN is overrated because of the supply and demand issue. So giving up SVN wouldn't bother me at all.

I think the biggest obstacle, aside from Starwood itself, would be from elite owners who bought because of the 5* platinum-for-life benefit. They paid big bucks for that benefit and it would be a real loss for them.
 
I agree with everyting above, but have one comment regarding Point 6 above.
Voluntary resorts, which have the ability to trade via SVN, do command higher resale values. WKV sells for quite a bit more than SDO, WKORV sells for quite a bit more than WPORV, and SVV for quite a bit more than SVR.

It has been true so far. However, we have mandatory owners (use SVN for internal exchange) who worry about SVN internal trade availability. Unlike before, many owners couldn't get what they wanted within SVN system this year. It will seriously impact mandatory resorts' resale prices. Those Westin resorts in Maui (WKORV & North) were sold over $15,000 for island view a year ago. now they were sold around $8,000 on ebay and even ocean view/ocean front units were sold under $15,000. If starwood doesn't provide more availabilities within SVN internal exchange, the prices will fall much more than this soon.
 
Red edits are mine.
I think the biggest obstacle, aside from Starwood itself, would be from elite owners who bought because of the 5* platinum-for-life benefit. They paid big bucks for that benefit and it would be a real loss for them.

Hilton's elite program is nice too ;)
If Hilton give Diamond elite status for life to 5* elite starwood owners, it will make equal? Is starwood's 5* elite is far superior than Hilton's diamond elite?
 
They are making money at our expense via excessive management fees, housekeeping fees, rental fees etc... In fact, you can argue that the more delinquencies, the better off Starwood is because the pocket more rental commissions and hosekeeping fees which otherwise they wouldn't get. This is a cash cow for them (at least on the management side) - I can't see them giving it up voluntarily.

The sales effort is a different story. TUG negatie sentiment here seems to affect quite a few buyers in backing away from a purchase decision... that's probably hurting Starwood, but since they are not developing new resorts I don'tknow how much they care.

That is the problem with developer based resorts that are set up where the developer remains in control after the original inventory is sold out. All resorts are built and sold by developers so they can make a profit. If the developer reaches a certain point (75% sold out for example) and turns the HOA over to the owners, then the resort will usually be operated in an efficient cost controlling manner. If the developer retains control of the board and is the Mgt company for the resort things usually get very expensive for the owners. As the developer has fewer sales their income falls. How can they make more coporate profit? Simple charge more for mgt fees. Do they need to bid out housekeeping? No do it themselves and make a profit for themselves. Do they bid out renovations? No, give it to a company they own or who will pay them an overide or kickback. Annual MF's keep getting higher and what can the owners do about it? Nothing because the developer controls the board and every expense the resort pays. The more the developer charges the owners in mgt fees, houskeeping fees, renovations, upkeep, etc, the more profit the developer makes. Can you vote them off as the resort's mgt company? Usually they have it set up so that you can't. Can you sue them? Sure but you might or might not win and good luck getting in touch with enough owners who will pay their fair share of the legal fees.

I own at several resorts that are developer run and all have higher MF's than the resorts I own at which are owner controlled. The smaller independent resorts which are owner controlled usually have the most reasonable MF's from my experience because their goal is to provide the best services possible for the cheapest cost. After a resort is basically sold out the developers only way to make a profit at the resort is on the backs of the owners.

Developers make more money every time the MF's go up at resorts they manage so there is little incentive for them to keep costs down. Board members and mgt companies at owner controlled resorts on the other hand only keep their jobs if they keep the annual MF's as low as possible.
 
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That is the problem with developer based resorts that are set up where the developer remains in control after the original inventory is sold out. All resorts are built and sold by developers so they can make a profit.

And Starwood, unfortunately for us, seems to be the worst among all the developer based resorts. There is no other developer that raised MFs anywhere close to what Starwood did both over a 5 year horizon as well as in 2010. Many people seem shocked by what happened with 2010 fees, but this is by no means anything new... even without Maui taxes or delinquencies excuses Starwood looks terrible on this front when you look at 2004-2009.
 
We have Marriott and Starwood timeshares in Hawaii - all bought from developer
No regrets since we love the units. We wanted the 'assurance' of big name brands that i know from staying at the associated hotels.

However, starwood has not been succesful in running a timeshare organization. We wanted hawaii but also the opportunity to trade for timeshares in other locations. We decided to sell our vacation house as it was too much work, staying there always would be boring after a while - so timeshares were the answer - no work and opportunity to stay at beautiful locations. Costs were reasonable compared to a summer house. We still love KORV but feel trading within SVO is not reasonable and maint. fee increases are unreasonable compared to Marriotts

My question to those who say when location is sold out then HOA takes over and developer leaves. With marriott resorts doesn't marriott still run them?same for Hilton?

I would welcome Hilton, Marriott etc taking over from Starwood and not really be happy without a 'name brand' associated location
 
We have Marriott and Starwood timeshares in Hawaii - all bought from developer
No regrets since we love the units. We wanted the 'assurance' of big name brands that i know from staying at the associated hotels.

However, starwood has not been succesful in running a timeshare organization. We wanted hawaii but also the opportunity to trade for timeshares in other locations. We decided to sell our vacation house as it was too much work, staying there always would be boring after a while - so timeshares were the answer - no work and opportunity to stay at beautiful locations. Costs were reasonable compared to a summer house. We still love KORV but feel trading within SVO is not reasonable and maint. fee increases are unreasonable compared to Marriotts

My question to those who say when location is sold out then HOA takes over and developer leaves. With marriott resorts doesn't marriott still run them?same for Hilton?

I would welcome Hilton, Marriott etc taking over from Starwood and not really be happy without a 'name brand' associated location

Marriott has more reasonable MF's than Starwood but could not be considered inexpensive when compared to the owner controlled resorts. Marriott has some of the highest MF's in the industry along with Hilton and Hyatt. Marriott has some great resorts but if they were under control of owner controlled boards who could hire efficient cost cutting Mgt companies the MF's would be much lower. A couple of Mariotts have thrown Marriott out as the Mgt company from what I have read. I think one is on hilton Head and I am not sure where the other resorts(s) that have done likewise are located.

My average 2 bed room MF's at owner controlled resorts is less than $650 a year including taxes and reserves. The lowest 2 bed room Marriott MF's are close to $1000 and many in Hawaii and Aruba approach or exceed $2000 annually. I would guess the average annual expense for a 2 bed room with Marriott would be close to $1300.

Here are some 2010 MF examples to compare in Maui and Kaui.

MarriottMaui Ocean Club Molokai, Lanai & Maui Towers
1Bdrm $1538.81
2Bdrm $1692.70

MOC Lahaina & Napili Towers
2Bdrm $1896.49
3Bdrm $2275.79

Owner controlled in Maui:

Kamaole Beach Club 2 bed 2 bath $749

The Gardens at West Maui one bed $585

Sands of Kahana 2 bed 2 bath $943

Kahana Villa Vacation Club 2 bed 2bath $942

Kahana Falls one bed one bath $500

Maui Beach Vacation Club one bed one bath $640

Kahana Villa Vacation Club one bed room one bath $545

Maui Lea at Maui Hill one bed room 2 bath $1108

Sands of Kahana one bed room 2 bath $864



Same thing in Kauai.

Marriot Kauai Beach Villas one bed unit's MF's are $1590 in 2010

Owner controlled resorts:

Lawai Beach Resort one bed one bath $859

The Cliffs Club one bed 2 bath $917

The Point at Poipu 2 bed 2 bat $1200

The Cliffs Club 4 bed 4 bath $1252

Pono Kai Resort one bed one bath $649

Pahio at Kauai Beach Villas 2 bed 2 bath $1117

Hanalei Bay Resort 2 bed 2 bath $1200

The Makai Club Cottages 2 bed 2 bath $1145
 
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Marriott has more reasonable MF's than Starwood but could not be considered inexpensive when compared to the owner controlled resorts. Marriott has some of the highest MF's in the industry along with Hilton and Hyatt. Marriott has some great resorts but if they were under control of owner controlled boards who could hire efficient cost cutting Mgt companies the MF's would be much lower. A couple of Mariotts have thrown Marriott out as the Mgt company from what I have read. I think one is on hilton Head and I am not sure where the other resorts(s) that have done likewise are located.

My average 2 bed room MF's at owner controlled resorts is less than $650 a year including taxes and reserves. The lowest 2 bed room Marriott MF's are close to $1000 and many in Hawaii and Aruba approach or exceed $2000 annually. I would guess the average annual expense for a 2 bed room with Marriott would be close to $1300.

Here are some 2010 MF examples to compare in Maui and Kaui.

MarriottMaui Ocean Club Molokai, Lanai & Maui Towers
1Bdrm $1538.81
2Bdrm $1692.70

MOC Lahaina & Napili Towers
2Bdrm $1896.49
3Bdrm $2275.79

Owner controlled in Maui:

Kamaole Beach Club 2 bed 2 bath $749

The Gardens at West Maui one bed $585

Sands of Kahana 2 bed 2 bath $943

Kahana Villa Vacation Club 2 bed 2bath $942

Kahana Falls one bed one bath $500

Maui Beach Vacation Club one bed one bath $640

Kahana Villa Vacation Club one bed room one bath $545

Maui Lea at Maui Hill one bed room 2 bath $1108

Sands of Kahana one bed room 2 bath $864



Same thing in Kauai.

Marriot Kauai Beach Villas one bed unit's MF's are $1590 in 2010

Owner controlled resorts:

Lawai Beach Resort one bed one bath $859

The Cliffs Club one bed 2 bath $917

The Point at Poipu 2 bed 2 bat $1200

The Cliffs Club 4 bed 4 bath $1252

Pono Kai Resort one bed one bath $649

Pahio at Kauai Beach Villas 2 bed 2 bath $1117

Hanalei Bay Resort 2 bed 2 bath $1200

The Makai Club Cottages 2 bed 2 bath $1145

I don't feel all of your comparisons are comparing Apples to Apples. I've stayed at the Cliff's Club and while our unit was okay it wasn't a Westin. There is definitely a huge QUALITY gap between the resorts. I haven't stayed at the other ones so, I cannot compare. I also believed that Marriot left some of their timeshare units because the owners did not want to keep up with the Marriott standards. I know, for some of the Colorado units I thought Marriott wanted the units to be upgraded to Marriott standards and the HOA did not.

One of the reasons I picked Marriott and/or Starwood for timeshare units because I like the consistency between the units. They will always be upgraded on a schedule (at least Marriott units are).

I guess... my biggest fear would like our 1st condo rental in Maui. It was in the Kihei area (resort will be nameless). Anyways... the photos online were nothing like the unit we received. We were informed that the owners maintain all the unit at different rates. Anyways... we were in a the back of the complex with a dark unit with very little windows. No A/C. The bugs would run when I flicked on the lights. It was basically a dump. The furniture was soiled from wet bathing suits, etc... The same occurred when we stayed at a timeshare in SF. The unit was just basically a dump but people continue to write rave reviews about these places. So, I guess, we expect a certain standard and some of these other places just remind me of staying in an apartment (and I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that but it just isn't my cup of tea). So, I've come to love the Marriott and Westin quality. I like the resort amentities offered. If I didn't I wouldn't buy these timeshares. I would have gotten a no name brand if it didn't matter to me. I can honestly say it does matter to me. But I'm at the point with Starwood that the price is not keeping up with my desire to stay there anymore.
 
I own a couple of "no-name" beach front timeshares in Florida that I absolutely love (truly independent, dedicated HOA boards who do everything in their power to find the right balance between "nice" (not luxurious) and "cost effective," but ... you're right, they're not Westin, Hyatt, Hilton, Marriott, etc -- not fair comparisons.

And, I too love the quality that the name brands provide ... and the amenities (I want restaurant choices, room service, music by the pool, fun bars, etc.).

But, I think it's worth mentioning that I'm questioning Starwood's sanity in the recent WSJ refurb (which is costing us an arm and a leg). I've been there twice this year -- and although both units looked lovely on the surface, you didn't have to look too far to find the flaws in the white/cream soft furniture. What were they thinking? Kids visit this place all the time -- white was a really poor choice in my opinion.

VillaLivingRoom.jpg


How many years will it be before these need replaced? 2? 3? We had to do a total refurb at my "no name" beach timeshare in Florida and the HOA had the good sense to buy furniture that appears to be holding up to the traffic quite well.

I don't mind when luxury comes with a price, but I expect common sense as well. Is that too much to ask?
 
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I don't feel all of your comparisons are comparing Apples to Apples. I've stayed at the Cliff's Club and while our unit was okay it wasn't a Westin. There is definitely a huge QUALITY gap between the resorts. I haven't stayed at the other ones so, I cannot compare. I also believed that Marriot left some of their timeshare units because the owners did not want to keep up with the Marriott standards. I know, for some of the Colorado units I thought Marriott wanted the units to be upgraded to Marriott standards and the HOA did not.

One of the reasons I picked Marriott and/or Starwood for timeshare units because I like the consistency between the units. They will always be upgraded on a schedule (at least Marriott units are).

I guess... my biggest fear would like our 1st condo rental in Maui. It was in the Kihei area (resort will be nameless). Anyways... the photos online were nothing like the unit we received. We were informed that the owners maintain all the unit at different rates. Anyways... we were in a the back of the complex with a dark unit with very little windows. No A/C. The bugs would run when I flicked on the lights. It was basically a dump. The furniture was soiled from wet bathing suits, etc... The same occurred when we stayed at a timeshare in SF. The unit was just basically a dump but people continue to write rave reviews about these places. So, I guess, we expect a certain standard and some of these other places just remind me of staying in an apartment (and I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that but it just isn't my cup of tea). So, I've come to love the Marriott and Westin quality. I like the resort amentities offered. If I didn't I wouldn't buy these timeshares. I would have gotten a no name brand if it didn't matter to me. I can honestly say it does matter to me. But I'm at the point with Starwood that the price is not keeping up with my desire to stay there anymore.

There is no question that Marriott provides a high quality stay consistently as does Hyatt, Hilton, and Starwood. Most of the independent resorts I listed are not nearly as plush as the chains and I did not mean to infer that there was no justification for higher fees at the chains because there is. I would pay more to stay in some of the chains, but there is a limit to how much more am willing to pay. In some instance I won't pay as much for a chain as I will for an independent due to location. Many Marriott beach locations are near the beach not on the beach in Hilton Head, Panama City Beach, etc. I would rather stay in an older less plush oceanfront resort (and pay more for it) than a plush chain located a short drive or stroll from the beach. To each his own but in Hawaii and most anywhere I go to vacation I am in my room very little and I don't want a dump, but I sure don't want to pay double each year for designer curtains and stainless steel refrigeraters. I have never come back from a vacation feeling my trip was ruined from lack of granite counter tops, non designer decorating touches, or lack of crown moulding. Sometimes I love a rustic resort for a change of pace. Some of the best vacations my family has ever taken were spent in National Park accomodations which are more run down and have less amenities than the worst motels I have stayed in overnight. Rooms in-park at Yellowstone and Yosemite are must stay locations. Apparently many agree since you have to reserve at about a year in advance to get a room.

The problem is that the chains have little incentive to provide that quality while controlling costs. The more fluff they add the higher fees they feel that they can justify charging. As these resorts keep raising the annual fees at much higher rates than the cost of inflation their value of ownership decreases. There will come a point that most owners will no longer feel the quality of the rooms are worth the expense. Whether that point is $1500, $2000, $2500, or $3000 in annual MF's that point will eventually be reached. In addition with a little searching most of these chain resorts can already be rented on Redweek and Tug for equal to or less than the owners pay in annual MF's. No matter how nice the resort is why purchase and be obligated to ever increasing MF's and inevitable assessments when you can rent for cheaper?

At an independent resort if they want to assess for this or that renovation, raise MF's, increase the mgt fees paid to the company, give employees raises, etc, they have to answer to the owners. If the owners don't like what the board and/or mgt comapny is doing, the owners can vote the board out and replace the management company. The board and mgt companies at ower controlled resorts have to be accountable for their expenses and their jobs depend on it. That is the best model to keep costs down at resorts.

At most of the chains where owners don't control the board/mgt company, the chains assess as they see fit, raise what they charge to manage the resort almost annually, and raise MF's with no regards to what the majority of owners want. The only time the chains have incentive to keep MF's low is when they are selling at new resorts. When the masses are going through the sales presentations they want to proclaim loudly that this can be yours for only $850 a week each year. After the resort is sold out the MF increase train starts rolling because now everyone is trapped and has to pay whatever the resort decides to charge, sell their week, or get turned over to collections.

I no longer want to be an "owner" at any resort where I am forever obligated to pay whatever the developer feels like charging without regards to the majority of owner's wishes. Been there, done that, and I am so over it.
 
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Why pay big dollars to get what you can do for yourself?

We have Marriott and Starwood timeshares in Hawaii - all bought from developer
No regrets since we love the units. We wanted the 'assurance' of big name brands that i know from staying at the associated hotels.

I would welcome Hilton, Marriott etc taking over from Starwood and not really be happy without a 'name brand' associated location

The only "assurance" that a brand name management offers is that your fees will be higher in most cases. Thats because to keep the brand name means accepting their rules. First is the required level of unit furnishings, fixtures and finishes. Same with common areas. Nothing wrong with that and nothing whatsoever to prevent a non-name brand from having exactly the same items if the HOA Board/owners wish that level of quality.

Second is the management fee. In most cases the name brand writes the contract to favor themselves and are sure to do a cost plus guaranteed type contract. Of course many non-names do the same but may not have the clout to hang around and collect on it. So you are getting an inflated (often 10-15%) fee level to have the "name" on the resort/system.

Third is the upgrade/maintenance work. The contract will say that only the "approved" vendors can do the work (read another hefty percentage add on to the favored vendors) as well as the standard management overhead added to each project. This can be 25-50% more costly than the exact same work done on a competitive bid situation. And if the HOA refuses? The name walks.

Thats just a sample of the way fees can quickly spiral out of control quickly when the name calls the shots. Once the resort quality is set and the owners are in control there is NO reason that the name needs to hang on to keep things at the desired level. In fact when Marriott dropped some resorts (a pattern they have had for years - go in and get out) the resulting change to an independent management resulted in lower fees and IMPROVED resorts. The reduction in overhead tacked on by Marriott allowed the HOA/management to make improvements at lower costs and get as good or better products and finishes. Adding a big fixed overhead doesn't buy anything but extra costs to owners.

It is up to those owners to set the quality they desire to have - the name brand isn't required to have a hand in it. To do it by using the name brand to enforce quality is an extremely expensive way to do what any well run management/HOA can accomplish on their own if they are willing to pay the cost. It should be easier to convince the reluctant owners to pony up the difference between K-Mart quality and Stickley type rather than paying 25-50% more to be forced by the brand name to do the same. Most would understand that the end result is the important part and getting it at the best price is in everyones best interest. That is NOT by overpaying for the brand name IMO.
 
Most of us who purchase branded timeshares understand that the fees will be higher for the reason stated above. We accept that because of the quality and trading opportunities that we believe make owning with Starwood, Hyatt, etc worthwhile.

The problem with Starwood isn't that the fees are higher; it's that the fees are increasing at such an alarming rate.
 
Far too much for what you get - no reason for it

Most of us who purchase branded timeshares understand that the fees will be higher for the reason stated above. We accept that because of the quality and trading opportunities that we believe make owning with Starwood, Hyatt, etc worthwhile.

The problem with Starwood isn't that the fees are higher; it's that the fees are increasing at such an alarming rate.

When you give them an open checkbook and a guaranteed contract why are you surprised? They have nothing to lose in raising fees to any level they desire and no threat of being removed. Far too much to pay for my taste.
 
In fact when Marriott dropped some resorts (a pattern they have had for years - go in and get out) the resulting change to an independent management resulted in lower fees and IMPROVED resorts. The reduction in overhead tacked on by Marriott allowed the HOA/management to make improvements at lower costs and get as good or better products and finishes.

Could you list specific resorts that Marriott left and which are improved today? I'd like to look into them. Thanks.
 
I own a couple of "no-name" beach front timeshares in Florida that I absolutely love (truly independent, dedicated HOA boards who do everything in their power to find the right balance between "nice" (not luxurious) and "cost effective," but ... you're right, they're not Westin, Hyatt, Hilton, Marriott, etc -- not fair comparisons.

And, I too love the quality that the name brands provide ... and the amenities (I want restaurant choices, room service, music by the pool, fun bars, etc.).

But, I think it's worth mentioning that I'm questioning Starwood's sanity in the recent WSJ refurb (which is costing us an arm and a leg). I've been there twice this year -- and although both units looked lovely on the surface, you didn't have to look too far to find the flaws in the white/cream soft furniture. What were they thinking? Kids visit this place all the time -- white was a really poor choice in my opinion.

VillaLivingRoom.jpg


How many years will it be before these need replaced? 2? 3? We had to do a total refurb at my "no name" beach timeshare in Florida and the HOA had the good sense to buy furniture that appears to be holding up to the traffic quite well.

I don't mind when luxury comes with a price, but I expect common sense as well. Is that too much to ask?
I agree... I'm not sure what they were thinking with all that white. They have the same white at WKORV and surprisingly it has held up well. I'm not sure what they do but the last time we stayed there was in a unit that was at least 4 years old and there wasn't as much wear and tear that I expected to see. I've seen worst at Disney Vacation Club Resorts.

I don't believe Starwood is making the best choices for their owners but I'm not sure the independent HOA is the way to go yet as the previous poster mentioned. I'm not ready for that. It is fine if that poster is but that's not what I bought into.
 
Could you list specific resorts that Marriott left and which are improved today? I'd like to look into them. Thanks.
I can't remember their exact names but some were in Colorado and one in Hilton Head.
 
There is no question that Marriott provides a high quality stay consistently as does Hyatt, Hilton, and Starwood. Most of the independent resorts I listed are not nearly as plush as the chains and I did not mean to infer that there was no justification for higher fees at the chains because there is. I would pay more to stay in some of the chains, but there is a limit to how much more am willing to pay. In some instance I won't pay as much for a chain as I will for an independent due to location. Many Marriott beach locations are near the beach not on the beach in Hilton Head, Panama City Beach, etc. I would rather stay in an older less plush oceanfront resort (and pay more for it) than a plush chain located a short drive or stroll from the beach. To each his own but in Hawaii and most anywhere I go to vacation I am in my room very little and I don't want a dump, but I sure don't want to pay double each year for designer curtains and stainless steel refrigeraters. I have never come back from a vacation feeling my trip was ruined from lack of granite counter tops, non designer decorating touches, or lack of crown moulding. Sometimes I love a rustic resort for a change of pace. Some of the best vacations my family has ever taken were spent in National Park accomodations which are more run down and have less amenities than the worst motels I have stayed in overnight. Rooms in-park at Yellowstone and Yosemite are must stay locations. Apparently many agree since you have to reserve at about a year in advance to get a room.

The problem is that the chains have little incentive to provide that quality while controlling costs. The more fluff they add the higher fees they feel that they can justify charging. As these resorts keep raising the annual fees at much higher rates than the cost of inflation their value of ownership decreases. There will come a point that most owners will no longer feel the quality of the rooms are worth the expense. Whether that point is $1500, $2000, $2500, or $3000 in annual MF's that point will eventually be reached. In addition with a little searching most of these chain resorts can already be rented on Redweek and Tug for equal to or less than the owners pay in annual MF's. No matter how nice the resort is why purchase and be obligated to ever increasing MF's and inevitable assessments when you can rent for cheaper?

At an independent resort if they want to assess for this or that renovation, raise MF's, increase the mgt fees paid to the company, give employees raises, etc, they have to answer to the owners. If the owners don't like what the board and/or mgt comapny is doing, the owners can vote the board out and replace the management company. The board and mgt companies at ower controlled resorts have to be accountable for their expenses and their jobs depend on it. That is the best model to keep costs down at resorts.

At most of the chains where owners don't control the board/mgt company, the chains assess as they see fit, raise what they charge to manage the resort almost annually, and raise MF's with no regards to what the majority of owners want. The only time the chains have incentive to keep MF's low is when they are selling at new resorts. When the masses are going through the sales presentations they want to proclaim loudly that this can be yours for only $850 a week each year. After the resort is sold out the MF increase train starts rolling because now everyone is trapped and has to pay whatever the resort decides to charge, sell their week, or get turned over to collections.

I no longer want to be an "owner" at any resort where I am forever obligated to pay whatever the developer feels like charging without regards to the majority of owner's wishes. Been there, done that, and I am so over it.

Yep.. you are right we don't spend much time in the room but I do spend a lot of time outside the room. So, let's compare the amenities at The Cliff Club (and I've stayed here) compared to Westin KOVR (this is where I own). The pool at the cliff is apartment like. It is a long rectangle and has a hot tub at the end. It provides no room for families really to run around and play. In fact, I was given a lot of dirty looks because my kids were too noisy. So, I much prefer the pool layout at WKORV. There is a toddler pool and a pool slide. The resort offers all kinds of silly games during the day. Finally there are tons of kids for my kids to play with. At the Cliff's club is very quiet. On site at WKORV I have access to a SPA, 2 restaurants, a small store, snack bar, movie rentals, business center, gym, many pools, beautiful scenery. There is tons of outside space. The Cliff club does have some nice outside space but it is over looking a cliff with no real beach access. So, I'm sorry to say I love the location of WKORV as it is right on the beach.

Anyways... I don't mean to offend you but I don't want to give up those amenties for an independently run HOA that isn't going to replace the gym equipment for 20 years plus.

I think, we might be 2 timesharers that are at different points in our lives. You probably don't have kids that care about the amenities offered at a larger resort where my kids thrive at place like WKORV. They are very social and love meeting people. At the Cliff's Club we were lucky if ran into one person the entire day. But I'm also glad there are different resorts out there so, people can have choices. I'm not happy with Starwood MF increases which are totally different from Marriot, Hilton or Hyatt increases..
 
I can't remember their exact names but some were in Colorado and one in Hilton Head.

Correct. I don't recall the names either. Too many resorts!
 
FWIW, I'd be happy to have Starwood remain as managers if they allowed a truly independent HOA to be seated and represent our interests.

But I'll say this again: Something is up with Starwood. They have to know that signficantly raising their MFs, again, in this economy is going to cause a snowball effect of more delinquencies/rising MFs. They have to know that these raises are pissing off even their most ardent supporters and driving more people away.

Their competitors, who've been around long enough to have survived economic downturns, and who operate in the same areas as Starwood, have not had to raise their MFs. Marriott has not only kept MFs steady but has slashed the prices on new developer purchases in order to stimulate more business. Starwood, on the other hand, is still asking pre-crash prices. It's the "La La La La" method of management.

When they decided to halt the Aruba, Cabo, and WKORV-N-N developments, we asked then, "What are they going to do now to make money?" The big dollars, the kind of dollars that impress CEOs and stockholders, are in new developments. Well, now that the smoke has cleared, I think it's pretty obvious what their solution was. They decided to squeeze their owners for every penny they could, while focusing all their energies on one development: the WKORV-N-N project.

The fact that they are willing to fight Maui County in order to get the green light to build, even now, is very telling. Who in their right mind flips the bird to folks who have the power to quadruple property taxes with the stroke of a pen? Who in their right mind expands even as the resorts right next door are reporting record delinquencies? Who in their right mind builds in a place where tourism is down significantly in an economy that is reporting double digit unemployment?

Desperate people, that's who. I think they are counting on WKORV-N-N to be their salvation. They are counting on the economy turning around by the time this thing is built. And if, in the meantime, they need to hop on the backs of the owners at existing resorts, and create phony excuses as to why their MFs have to increase 25% each year, in order to survive until then, then that's what they're willing to do. Even if it means drowning half of us in the process. It's survival of the meanest out there, and Starwood has shown us repeatedly how tenacious and viscious they can be.
 
LisaRex, ... "The fact that they are willing to fight Maui County in order to get the green light to build, even now, is very telling. Who in their right mind flips the bird to folks who have the power to quadruple property taxes with the stroke of a pen? Who in their right mind expands even as the resorts right next door are reporting record delinquencies? Who in their right mind builds in a place where tourism is down significantly in an economy that is reporting double digit unemployment?"

Perhaps someone who thinks the testimony at the zoning hearing that supported the open space (bike path?) should allow Starwood to get the building permits for Maui 3?

Please read the actual transcript of the plan commission hearing for the 2nd SMA. I have posted the link below. It seems the locals and neighbors do not share your attitude about Starwood.

http://www.co.maui.hi.us/archives/85/112707.min.part 1.pg1-50.pdf

... eom
 
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