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Just Purchased in Lakeshore Reserve - Mistake?

Kenny,

I would recommend buying a gold or platinum 2BR Marriott Aruba surf club lockoff unit. I bought one 2 years ago and can trade into almost ANYTHING.
 
"Having an interest in the Rewards program certainly is not enough reason to buy direct --- in most cases."

What? It's one of the most important reasons to buy direct. There are many other factors such as peace of mind, insurance against future changes, ease of transaction.

"With point purchases from Marriott at $1250 for 100,000 points (per year, per couple), I'm not sure I can consider this solid advice."

Using this logic, it will take a family at lease 3 years and $3750 to get enough points for a vacation. At that point, it would be cheaper to just plan your own non-point vacation. Purchasing a substantial amount of points from Marriott is just not practical or cost effective. It was never meant to be used in this manner. It's surprising people recommend this option, but it's just another method resale purchasers use to minimize the desirability/necessity of the Marriott program.

People who purchase from marriott can exchange their unit for points just for an extra $104. It's a nice option to have when you can't use up all of your weeks. This is not a small benefit.
 
My point was just "having an interest" is not enough reason....

I certainly have a big interest in earning MRPs whenever I can, I just couldn't justify the extra cost.

That's all.... :)
 
Latravel said:
"With point purchases from Marriott at $1250 for 100,000 points (per year, per couple), I'm not sure I can consider this solid advice."

Using this logic, it will take a family at lease 3 years and $3750 to get enough points for a vacation. At that point, it would be cheaper to just plan your own non-point vacation.
Click to expand...

It's hysterical that you're making this argument given that most weeks - when traded for points - give you 110,000 points or fewer. So even after paying tens of thousands of dollars more for your developer timeshare, once your bonus points are gone, you too will have to wait three or more years for your vacation package.

In fact, you might have to wait longer, since many weeks can only be traded every other year for points.

And what will trading your timeshare week for points for three straight years cost you? Well, given the average Marriott MF is around $850 these days, and you have to pay to exchange your week for points, it will cost you around $3,000 for your vacation.

So pretty much the exact same argument you just made against buying points can be made against buying a developer timeshare to trade for points.

The big difference being, of course, that if you're just buying the points, you're not out the $25,000 or more that a developer timeshare costs you.
 
ondeadlin said:
It's hysterical that you're making this argument given that most weeks - when traded for points - give you 110,000 points or fewer. So even after paying tens of thousands of dollars more for your developer timeshare, once your bonus points are gone, you too will have to wait three or more years for your vacation package.

In fact, you might have to wait longer, since many weeks can only be traded every other year for points.

And what will trading your timeshare week for points for three straight years cost you? Well, given the average Marriott MF is around $850 these days, and you have to pay to exchange your week for points, it will cost you around $3,000 for your vacation.

So pretty much the exact same argument you just made against buying points can be made against buying a developer timeshare to trade for points.

The big difference being, of course, that if you're just buying the points, you're not out the $25,000 or more that a developer timeshare costs you.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it. I was going to basically say the same thing. The only thing I would add is that I think the cost is a good bit higher than $3000. I think your average of $850 for Marriott maitenance fees is at least $100-$150too low. Manor Club fees are $850 which is the lowest I recall though I think Horizons Branson is a bit lower but most are higher, especially the Aruba and Hawaii properties. Other than that you make a great point.:)
 
I find it hysterical that you are leaving out a big portion of the equation.

We all pay maintenance fees. That is a constant cost, therefore, don't consider it. The only extra cost for direct purchasers is $104. If you can pay developer prices, this cost is minimal and worth the benefit of getting rid of an unused week.

If you buy resale, you have to pay the maintenance fees PLUS the cost of buying the points ($3750). At this point, you'd never do it because it's obviously very expensive. You'll just go to your one timeshare, or trade to others, year after year.

Most importantly, how could it make sense that direct purchasers would have to wait longer to accumulate enough points to purchase a vacation package? Remember, I could trade my unit AND buy points so logically, if I wanted (remember flexibility), I could accumulate points twice as fast.

FYI, all my units trade every year for 110K points.

Lastly, i'm not out $25,000, I only paid $12,000 more and my trip to Italy coming up more than covers my cost difference. The best part, i'll have the flexibility to take similar trips probably every other year as well, if I wanted.
 
I think an earlier post, which said that if Kenny is really worried about not being able to take this one week of vacation a year, then maybe t/s is not for them. I think that's a good point. Although, like I said in my earlier post, once Kenny learns all the tricks of the trade from TUG, he will have no problem using that one wonderful week a year. If he buys a strong trader and someplace they like, I don't forsee any problems.

Janna
 
Latravel said:
I find it hysterical that you are leaving out a big portion of the equation.

We all pay maintenance fees. That is a constant cost, therefore, don't consider it. The only extra cost for direct purchasers is $104. If you can pay developer prices, this cost is minimal and worth the benefit of getting rid of an unused week.

If you buy resale, you have to pay the maintenance fees PLUS the cost of buying the points ($3750). At this point, you'd never do it because it's obviously very expensive. You'll just go to your one timeshare, or trade to others, year after year.

Most importantly, how could it make sense that direct purchasers would have to wait longer to accumulate enough points to purchase a vacation package? Remember, I could trade my unit AND buy points so logically, if I wanted (remember flexibility), I could accumulate points twice as fast.

FYI, all my units trade every year for 110K points.

Lastly, i'm not out $25,000, I only paid $12,000 more and my trip to Italy coming up more than covers my cost difference. The best part, i'll have the flexibility to take similar trips probably every other year as well, if I wanted.
Click to expand...

Forget maintenance fees? The points have a cost either way. If your maintenance fees are $1000 and you trade your unit for points then you paid $1104 for 110K points. And add to that the huge premium you paid versus resale.

Anyone can buy 100K points for $1300. Without the huge cost of a developer purchase.

Your math about the cost of your Italy trip leaves out the fact that you didnt get the points for free. You paid for them by trading your unit for points.

The only way a developer purchase ever comes close to making sense from a financial standpoint is if you get a huge amount of incentive points. Yes, it gives flexibility if you dont use your unit but why not rent the unit instead? Doing that makes much better sense financially than spending an extra $15K plus on a developer purchase.
 
When I said don't consider the maintenance fees, I was speaking mathematically. If you have a number on both sides of an equation, you can ignore it. It's simple algebra. For example:

For developer purchases, the cost of 110,000 points is: $1000 mf + $104 fee.

The cost for resale purchasers is: $1000 mf + $1250 fee (for slightly less points).

Since $1000 mf was in both equations, you can ignore it, it's constant. Now the cost difference is $104 for direct purchasers and $1250 for resale purchasers. For 300,000 points (the cost of an average travel package), the cost difference is greater: $312 for direct vs $3750 for resale.

FYI, the cost of my Italy trip was paid solely by the incentive points I received from my purchase of Shadow Ridge. I did not trade in my unit. The incentive points made up for the cost difference, no matter how you guys want to define the value of my Italy trip.

Despite all of this, (I know I sound crazy) the circumstances in place when I purchased my timeshares are not the same as now. The price difference between resale and direct is more than $12,000 now and Marriott is not offering the same amount of incentive points as they used to. You have to see what Marriott offers you and do some cost benefit analysis, like i've done above to see if it's worth it.

If I were Kenny, I would rescind and purchase in a different location. I would buy from Marriott because he mentioned he is interested in points. I would take advantage of the sale going on and negotiate more incentive points otherwise you won't buy.

Good luck in your decision!
 
Latravel said:
When I said don't consider the maintenance fees, I was speaking mathematically. If you have a number on both sides of an equation, you can ignore it. It's simple algebra. For example:

For developer purchases, the cost of 110,000 points is: $1000 mf + $104 fee.

The cost for resale purchasers is: $1000 mf + $1250 fee (for slightly less points).

Since $1000 mf was in both equations, you can ignore it, it's constant. Now the cost difference is $104 for direct purchasers and $1250 for resale purchasers. For 300,000 points (the cost of an average travel package), the cost difference is greater: $312 for direct vs $3750 for resale.
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm.... . I'm confused... Is the math really correct here? For the developer purchase, didn't one have to give up the use of three weeks --- possibly valued at $3000 - $5000 (I'm guessing at rental rates, depending on season/location) ????
 
The math is completely and totally wrong.

It's wrong because it assumes one has to buy a timeshare. Here's the real math:

Buyer A doesn't buy a timeshare, instead he just buys Marriott points with his wife. He pays $1250 a year for 100,000 points, and at the end of three years he has 300,000 points. He can now go to Europe on a travel package. Whoopie!

Buyer K buys a timeshare from Marriott for $25,000. She trades her timeshare in for points for three straight years, spending $1104 per year, and comes away with 330,000. She can now also go to Europe on a travel package, and has a few more points left over.

But Buyer K paid $25,000 more for the right to trade for those points. What other great bonus did she get? Well, a big bunch of Marriott incentive points, but even if it was 500k - and nobody gets 500k these days without punching up the numbers by including points they got for trading weeks - I doubt it justifies the fact you can get the exact same thing without ever spending this money on a developer timeshare.

If you really think Marriott points are all that great don't buy a timeshare. You don't have to.
 
FlyerBobcat said:
Hmmmmm.... . I'm confused... Is the math really correct here? For the developer purchase, didn't one have to give up the use of three weeks --- possibly valued at $3000 - $5000 (I'm guessing at rental rates, depending on season/location) ????
Click to expand...

Exactly. The math is wrong. The resale buyer still has three weeks use while the developer purchaser gave up use in return for points.
 
"possibly valued at $3000 - $5000 (I'm guessing at rental rates, depending on season/location"

Who said every owner wants to rent out their unit? I don't want to mess with that. I'm talking the cost of the points. Also, can you tell me which units in the system rent for $5000? For that much, maybe I would reconsider!
 
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ondeadlin-

If you don't use realistic numbers, your point becomes mute. We become unable to have a discussion. I've already stated my opinion for Kenny.
 
If the weeks rented for $5,000 then I think Marriott would keep them and rent them out rather then selling them as Timeshares to the public.
 
Latravel said:
"possibly valued at $3000 - $5000 (I'm guessing at rental rates, depending on season/location"

Who said every owner wants to rent out their unit? I don't want to mess with that. I'm talking the cost of the points. Also, can you tell me which units in the system rent for $5000? For that much, maybe I would reconsider!
Click to expand...

Hold it!!! You cut off an important part of the quote:

...give up the use of three weeks --- possibly valued at $3000 - $5000 (I'm guessing at rental rates, depending on season/location) ????
Click to expand...

So that price range was an estimate for all three weeks that are given up to get the points !!!

You can't do a fair comparison without figuring a rough price of the weeks you are giving up.... (as just mentioned by "gmarine")
 
Latravel said:
"possibly valued at $3000 - $5000 (I'm guessing at rental rates, depending on season/location"

Who said every owner wants to rent out their unit? I don't want to mess with that. I'm talking the cost of the points. Also, can you tell me which units in the system rent for $5000? For that much, maybe I would reconsider!
Click to expand...

Aruba holiday weeks are one example- and I am referring to per week; until the recent economic downturn Platinum weeks there were renting in excess of 3K a week and holiday weeks 5K+. As a matter of fact, when Marriott was doing rentals my friend received $4000 for a week 50 from Marriott. So I know high rental rates do exist there, and I would venture to guess other prime weeks/destinations would have similar values.

Latravel said:
Despite all of this, (I know I sound crazy) the circumstances in place when I purchased my timeshares are not the same as now. The price difference between resale and direct is more than $12,000 now and Marriott is not offering the same amount of incentive points as they used to. You have to see what Marriott offers you and do some cost benefit analysis, like i've done above to see if it's worth it.
Click to expand...
It's nice to see you post this :) ; we've stood on different sides of the fence, so to speak, so many times on this issue. I have always maintained that for the right deal (cost differential + incentive points) buying direct might make sense. If I felt that I received enough points up front such that it would pay for a trip that I'd evaluate as coming close to the price differential (not rack rate cost, but the way I've managed to put together some pretty terrific trips in the past), such that the price differential would be minimal and I'd still have the option to trade for points, then it is a no brainer. Although I don't think I'd want to give up my expensive unit, which has inherent value, to trade for those points, it admittedly would be nice to have the option if I ever decided I wanted to.

But at the price differential at most properties over the past two years (which is even greater in today's market) and the smaller up front offerings that have largely been given in the recent past, it becomes harder and harder to justify paying that premium. Of course, a newer property with better price point value and large up front incentives might crop up, especially as Marriott again starts to expand. Time will tell....
 
Latravel said:
ondeadlin-

If you don't use realistic numbers, your point becomes mute. We become unable to have a discussion. I've already stated my opinion for Kenny.
Click to expand...

Again, absolutely hysterical. You do realize that most people are questioning your numbers?

You're always touting the ability to trade your timeshare for a dream travel package to Europe (7 nights, airfare, etc.). I've showed you how I can get the same package, in the same amount of time, by buying points from Marriott. It will cost me about $400 more.

We get the same exact thing, except you had to spend $25,000 to buy a timeshare from Marriott for the "right" to trade your week for points.

What about those numbers isn't realistic? The No. 1 benefit for buying developer isn't a benefit when you can buy the same points yourself without buying a timeshare and get the travel package in the exact same amount of time. The math here completely undermines trading for points.
 
ondeadlin said:
The math is completely and totally wrong.

It's wrong because it assumes one has to buy a timeshare. Here's the real math:

Buyer A doesn't buy a timeshare, instead he just buys Marriott points with his wife. He pays $1250 a year for 100,000 points, and at the end of three years he has 300,000 points. He can now go to Europe on a travel package. Whoopie!

Buyer K buys a timeshare from Marriott for $25,000. She trades her timeshare in for points for three straight years, spending $1104 per year, and comes away with 330,000. She can now also go to Europe on a travel package, and has a few more points left over.

But Buyer K paid $25,000 more for the right to trade for those points. What other great bonus did she get? Well, a big bunch of Marriott incentive points, but even if it was 500k - and nobody gets 500k these days without punching up the numbers by including points they got for trading weeks - I doubt it justifies the fact you can get the exact same thing without ever spending this money on a developer timeshare.

If you really think Marriott points are all that great don't buy a timeshare. You don't have to.
Click to expand...
Wow- of all the arguments I've read, this is the most concise illustration I have seen offered. I am impressed!

In all fairness, though, most of the price differences are in the 10-20K range rather than 25K, although there have been the occasional bargains. But the same logic applies.
 
Thank you.

And I'd argue that in this case, the price difference doesn't matter, because we're not really talking about comparing the economics of resale v. developer. We're talking about the economics of buying a timeshare just to trade for points, so you consider the full purchase price.

Now, you might ask, but why would you buy a timeshare just to trade for points?

To which I'd ask, if it's not economical to buy your timeshare and just trade it for points, why would you ever trade it for points? Is it really worth paying a $10,000 to $25,000 premium just to have an "option" that you may or may not use? If you can't justify trading the unit for points every year, why would you ever justify it?

And, given the math above, I clearly don't see how you can justify it every year.
 
I finally see where you are coming from. Wow, it's way out there. Of course no one buys a timeshare JUST for trading for points. See my post #19 above to see there are other reasons. Yes, from your logic, you don't need to purchase a timeshare JUST to get points but who does that?

The reason everyone mentions the price difference, not full cost, is because people are trying to determine if the extra option, not sole purpose, of trading for points is worth the price differential. In my analysis, it is because the incentive points paid for that price differential, so the benefit is free for me after 1 year, in my case.

I am viewing my ownership from a bigger picture while you are discussing simply and very specifically how to acquire points. We are talking about 2 completely different points of view.

Nope, no need to explain my mathematics and why the price differential should be divided among the number of times I trade until eventually it breaks even and eventually just costs me $104. That is what I was going to explain until I understood your point of view. It just doesn't apply to your approach.

Isn't this discussion off topic?
 
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It actually seems most people think it's right on topic.

Yes, we're talking about adding an "option" by buying developer, but what most folks understand is that I've demonstrated above that that "option" is almost completely worthless, because you can acquire the exact same option without ever having to buy a developer timeshare (or any timeshare).

And once you've established that, you're essentially paying developer overhead for two things: The "intangibles" of Marriott ownership (don't have to worry about who you're buying from, etc.) and bonus points that usually amount to one travel package.

Again, you're not getting anything extra by being able to trade for points, because you can get the same benefit without buying a timeshare.
 
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