WKORV New (Resale) Owner - First Visit

[jasonb]

Hi,

We are new resale owners at WKORV and will make our first visit (as owners - 3rd as guests) there in 2 weeks (Can't wait!).

Any advice on things we should be looking for or asking for as owners?

I am wondering if anyone has advice on the owners update etc.?

How many starpoints do you typically get for attending?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Jason

 

[DeniseM]

The owner's update is just a high pressure sales pitch. The last time we went I think we got 4,500 SP's but someone else probably has a more recent number. Personally, I would never go again. It is a waste of precious vacation time, and the sales people can be real jerks when they find out you aren't buying.

Unless you are an Elite owner, I don't think there are any perks for owners, but it doesn't hurt to ask for a better view!

 

[James1975NY]

I am in the business of selling timeshare on the resale market and my heart goes out to those that are selling retail. In today's economy and with buyers becoming very aware of alternative opportunities it is not easy. With exception to businesses operating unethically, I wish everyone propsperity. A lot of the cost associated to a retail timeshare is associated to marketing.

I suggest not to attend any presentation if you are not interested in purchasing. I do not think this is fair to that employee on the sales line. If you are not interested in purchasing, don't take up their time and allow them the opportunity to visit with a family that may be interested in the possibility of buying.

 

[eekrat]

We went on the owners update yesterday and it is still 4500 points.

I disagree about not attending if you don't intend to buy, it is sold as an owners update and not a sales presentation. Sure they tried to sell us Princeville but we were also able to ask questions about the resort and Starwood. Go if you have questions, but expect the answers to have a Starwood corporate spin, for the owners spin come back here. My opinion.

 

[DeniseM]

It probably depends on what salesman you get. When I told our salesman we were just there for the owner's update, he told us that we should have known that it was a sales presentation, and we were wasting his time!

 

[eekrat]

There are bad apples in every group. I guess it just depends on who you get on that particular day. The salesperson we dealt with would have loved to sell us another week, but did not pressure us and even told us that sales were continuing to be very strong. We thanked her and told her that we wished her continued success as we would love to see Starwood open new properties so we could trade into them.

 

[dss]

I'm with the camp that it's fair game to attend an owners update without any interest in buying. I agree that it's a tough market out there and I do feel for the reps who are trying to earn a living, but this is the marketing path their management has chosen to get them leads. If they are seeing too many owners coming in just for the points, i'm sure they will change direction and find a better source of leads.

I also think that given how much outreach SVN does to get you to attend an owners update on the property (Come stop by the "concierge" for a free gift and sign up for an owners update, etc...), they have to except that a high percentage of these people are not expecting nor will be receptive to a sales pitch.

 

[James1975NY]

Counter-point taken. Having said that, is the pressure to get you to purchase uninvited?

I feel comfortable making the statement that everyone here knows the "owner's update" is a sales presentation.

 

[Ken555]

Counter-point taken. Having said that, is the pressure to get you to purchase uninvited?

I feel comfortable making the statement that everyone here knows the "owner's update" is a sales presentation.

That's an interesting statement. What you really mean is that we should know that the true nature of the meeting is contrary to its title, and act accordingly. When I first started attending the owners update I was upset that these high-pressure salespeople were ignoring the reason I was there and instead trying to get me to buy something I didn't need, and I actually thought there was a mistake the first time. After all, that was back when I would naturally give SVN the benefit of the doubt.

I won't allow these types of duplicitous sales efforts in my business, and I'm sure many others won't either. I find the title of "owner's update" disingenuous and misleading, which also probably generates ill will toward the timeshare companies by a fair number of otherwise motivated buyers. If it was called "owner's sales update" or even "sales update" it would be clear what SVN's intention was for the time. An "owner's update" is easily construed to mean something totally different - and is compounded when the concierge offers the meeting in the light of "learning more about our resort and upcoming changes", etc.

So, I agree with the others that while I am sorry that some find themselves selling timeshares in this type of environment, it is by no means our responsibility to not attend a meeting for the sake of the sales staff. Frankly, I stopped going to these events once it became clear that they were among the most uninformed about how SVN operated. The very best I've seen so far was at Marriott, where the salesman was new to the system and tried his best to help explain how they operate in a relatively low-pressure situation. The worst were the egomaniacs at WKORV who make up stories about themselves and how the $65k timeshare with them is a great investment...as if we were just born yesterday. For those individuals, I have no qualms at all at wasting their time. I just don't do it, because I'm on vacation and no longer have any interest in spending my time this way.

 

[James1975NY]

That's an interesting statement. What you really mean is that we should know that the true nature of the meeting is contrary to its title, and act accordingly. When I first started attending the owners update I was upset that these high-pressure salespeople were ignoring the reason I was there and instead trying to get me to buy something I didn't need, and I actually thought there was a mistake the first time. After all, that was back when I would naturally give SVN the benefit of the doubt.

I won't allow these types of duplicitous sales efforts in my business, and I'm sure many others won't either. I find the title of "owner's update" disingenuous and misleading, which also probably generates ill will toward the timeshare companies by a fair number of otherwise motivated buyers. If it was called "owner's sales update" or even "sales update" it would be clear what SVN's intention was for the time. An "owner's update" is easily construed to mean something totally different - and is compounded when the concierge offers the meeting in the light of "learning more about our resort and upcoming changes", etc.

So, I agree with the others that while I am sorry that some find themselves selling timeshares in this type of environment, it is by no means our responsibility to not attend a meeting for the sake of the sales staff. Frankly, I stopped going to these events once it became clear that they were among the most uninformed about how SVN operated. The very best I've seen so far was at Marriott, where the salesman was new to the system and tried his best to help explain how they operate in a relatively low-pressure situation. The worst were the egomaniacs at WKORV who make up stories about themselves and how the $65k timeshare with them is a great investment...as if we were just born yesterday. For those individuals, I have no qualms at all at wasting their time. I just don't do it, because I'm on vacation and no longer have any interest in spending my time this way.

Not sure it is completely misleading but I would agree to the "teasing" nature of the title.

It would be nice to get a "free gift" of 4500 points (about $60 per gift) to simply learn about what is new in the world of SVO and leave. The problem with that is the cost associated to these points would be paid by the owners (not sales) and we would now be discussing the maintenance fees again.

I dont want anyone to think that I am picking a fight here, because I am not. I have a great amount of respect for the members here. Whether we are in difficult times or not, a sales presentation by any other name is still a sales presentation. If anyone feels like getting the points they are offering, have at 'em. Just sharing a different perspective.

Cheers everyone! Happy vacationing.

 

[DeniseM]

Jim - When we went to the "owners update" it was our first visit to the resort and I didn't know it was a sales presentation...

 

[Lawlar]

Not The Consumer's Fault

...
I suggest not to attend any presentation if you are not interested in purchasing. I do not think this is fair to that employee on the sales line. If you are not interested in purchasing, don't take up their time and allow them the opportunity to visit with a family that may be interested in the possibility of buying.

In the abstract, that statement makes sense and I would tend to agree. However, the problem lies with the manner in which the presentations are offered to the consumers.

Last year, I was called several times a week for months by a Marriott rep trying to get me to agree to a stay at NCV at a favorable rate in exchange for our attending a presentation. I kept telling this person that we did not want to buy another TS. He said it didn't matter that we weren't interested in buying anything, the presentation would be interesting and informative without pressure. This guy was really pesky. Finally, I gave in and accepted 5 nights for a good rate. I assume that person got some consideration for getting us to "purchase" the five night stay.

When we attended the presentation the sales rep gave us the same: "This is Marriott, so you can relax and be assured there will be no pressure." Then we were hammered for 2 1/2 hours (I won't repeat what occurred - I already created a thread about this unhappy experience).

So whose fault is it that the salesperson's time is "wasted?" Not the consumer. Not in my opinion.

 

[bruwery]

With exception to businesses operating unethically, I wish everyone propsperity. A lot of the cost associated to a retail timeshare is associated to marketing.

I suggest not to attend any presentation if you are not interested in purchasing. I do not think this is fair to that employee on the sales line. If you are not interested in purchasing, don't take up their time and allow them the opportunity to visit with a family that may be interested in the possibility of buying.

Call me kooky, but it seems a bit crazy to ask people to be considerate of the poor timeshare sales weasels. After all, what part of their presentation is "ethical"?

The part where they tell you it's "only 90 minutes"?
The part where they tell you the deal is only good today?
The part where they tell you they can't complete the deal via mail or fax?
The part where they tell you this an "investment"?
The part where they charge you ten times what you can pay for it elsewhere?
The part where they tell you there is no resale market and the units can only be purchased through them?
The part where they tell you that it'll trade for anyplace you want to go anytime?
The part where they lure you in with artificially low fees?
The part where they conveniently leave the fees out of the cost calculations?
The part where they get surly when they find out you're not buying and accuse you of not loving your family?

Every one of the above happened to me at a Starwood presentation. I attended it on my last day in Maui one visit, before I knew anything about timeshares. I had a couple of hours to kill before catching my flight, so I said "why not?"

I bought, but I made it clear that I'd be rescinding if, upon returning home, anything they told me didn't make sense. By the time I'd gotten on the plane two hours later, I'd already decided to rescind because it didn't take much quiet time to see through some of the distortions.

Imagine my surprise when I returned home and the "rescission" document wasn't included in my paperwork. It took me four days to obtain it, too, because it's not easy to get these "ethical" and upstanding, hard-working citizens to return calls when they know you're cancelling. They were none too friendly at that point, either.

In those four days, I did a lot of digging on the web looking for a copy of said form because I was rather nervous, and in the process, discovered TUG. How refreshing it was to see all my impressions confirmed.

Personally, I think all those sales weasels should go rot in a swamp.

That was the last presentation I ever attended, but it has nothing to do with feeling sorry for weasels. I realize that the economy is allegedly in the tank, but I don't see that as a reason to take pity upon swindlers, weasels, and other forms of lying scumbags.

If this is too harsh, well, I'm sorry. I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

[nodge]

For the uninitiated, here is a thread that discloses all of the painful details of what to expect at an SVO “owner’s update.”

It would take a lot more than a handful of devalued Starpoints to get me to waste my valuable vacation time enduring this bad theater act.

I do like snooping through the model villas though. I wonder if we should start posting the building/villa numbers for the model units at each resort. As I recall, they are frequently unlocked during the day, and it would be fun to just be able to go snoop around them when at a particular resort without wasting SVO's honorable sales-professionals' time.

Whad'ya think?

-nodge

 

[James1975NY]

In the abstract, that statement makes sense and I would tend to agree. However, the problem lies with the manner in which the presentations are offered to the consumers.

Last year, I was called several times a week for months by a Marriott rep trying to get me to agree to a stay at NCV at a favorable rate in exchange for our attending a presentation. I kept telling this person that we did not want to buy another TS. He said it didn't matter that we weren't interested in buying anything, the presentation would be interesting and informative without pressure. This guy was really pesky. Finally, I gave in and accepted 5 nights for a good rate. I assume that person got some consideration for getting us to "purchase" the five night stay.

When we attended the presentation the sales rep gave us the same: "This is Marriott, so you can relax and be assured there will be no pressure." Then we were hammered for 2 1/2 hours (I won't repeat what occurred - I already created a thread about this unhappy experience).

So whose fault is it that the salesperson's time is "wasted?" Not the consumer. Not in my opinion.

I agree.

So the bottom line here is that everyone should expect pressure from the salesperson whether it happens or not. In an economy like this and with extraordinary competition on the secondary market for the developer, I would expect that the pressure and sales tactics will increase. Not to say that this is what WILL happen....but EXPECT it.

Sometimes it is difficult to properly emote an opinion in writing (especially when you are alone with your opinion) but I want to assure everyone I am not trying to antagonize and I do expect most to have an alternative opinion.

Rule of Thumb: Whenever you are offered a "gift" or a discounted package that to attend a presentation, expect pressure. I don't care what anyone will tell you (especially the telemarketer that doesn't have to face you after they have closed their end).....expect pressure.

I am not standing up for the insult tactic or the pressure but I do know they feel they have the right to deliver accordingly. When you are "gifted" in anyway, their position is that they paid your for the time and the sales person does expect interest.

 

[James1975NY]

Call me kooky, but it seems a bit crazy to ask people to be considerate of the poor timeshare sales weasels. After all, what part of their presentation is "ethical"?

The part where they tell you it's "only 90 minutes"?
The part where they tell you the deal is only good today?
The part where they tell you they can't complete the deal via mail or fax?
The part where they tell you this an "investment"?
The part where they charge you ten times what you can pay for it elsewhere?
The part where they tell you there is no resale market and the units can only be purchased through them?
The part where they tell you that it'll trade for anyplace you want to go anytime?
The part where they lure you in with artificially low fees?
The part where they conveniently leave the fees out of the cost calculations?
The part where they get surly when they find out you're not buying and accuse you of not loving your family?

All points are irresponsible and unnecessary. They are also in direct relationship of every objection they face on a daily basis. Take the fire away from them and dont participate. Imagine how their egos would survive without anyone to treat the way they treated you.

Really, picture this for a moment....a room full of sales reps, twiddling their thumbs. I'd pay SVO 4500 SPG points to see it. and then I would raise the category one hotels to 8000 points per night. :hysterical:

 

[Ken555]

I do like snooping through the model villas though. I wonder if we should start posting the building/villa numbers for the model units at each resort. As I recall, they are frequently unlocked during the day, and it would be fun to just be able to go snoop around them when at a particular resort without wasting SVO's honorable sales-professionals' time.

Whad'ya think?

-nodge

Yes! While I was at WLR I wanted to see the studio side, out of curiosity. I asked the concierge (who had helped me earlier that week) and she grabbed a key and personally showed me the unit. This isn't the first time I've done this, and I've found going directly to the concierge and asking for a key works best. This even worked at a Marriott I stopped by at - I was explicit in that I didn't want a presentation, but did want to view the unit. They let me in and were quite courteous. This type of soft sell would work wonders on a buying audience that hates the typical t/s salesperson.

 

[Ken555]

Rule of Thumb: Whenever you are offered a "gift" or a discounted package that to attend a presentation, expect pressure. I don't care what anyone will tell you (especially the telemarketer that doesn't have to face you after they have closed their end).....expect pressure.

FWIW, I sat through a presentation at Harborside, since I expected a different viewpoint from them (not sure why, I just did). They offered no benefit for attending the meeting - no points, no funny money, nothing... except rather rude behavior once they realized I didn't want to buy a unit.

 

[DavidnRobin]

We also like to see (snoop) the new units being sold - You can easily find the open-house units at WKORVN and WSJ by following the salespeople. We did this last time at WKORV.

I enjoyed the 'Owners Update' gift at WKORVN - a $125 massage - it was worth the 60 minutes (of which only about 10 minutes was unpleasant) - and I even got to piss off the Closer (a bonus) when I challenged his fuzzy math with resale math. I know going in that it is a sales pitch - not sure why anyone would think differently (especially after the first one).

I do not think we will go again - and in reality there is nothing left to learn from a TS sales technique viewpoint or the data they have on the various VOIs (which I find interesting). I generally find the salespeople very pleasant and often discuss other things than TSing (like what it is like living in STJ or Maui and working for SVO) - it is the Closers who are real asses.

Wanted to add that I have a friend that went to Cancun to stay at the Westin hotel there - before they left I said 'whatever you do - do not buy a TS' and guess what happens? That's right - they do a TS presentation and buy. When they get back - they tell me they bought (all they seem to remember was how many we owned and how much we love ours). So I go through the math - and state they should rescind quickly while they can - but unfortunately I wasn't as convincing as the salesperson. they understood the resale math - but really wanted the SO-SP conversion and they were not ever planning on selling the TS. The worse part is that if I had known - I coulda scored 30K SPs as a reference. LOL

 

[Captron]

I have feelings on both sides of this argument. I do not want to antagonize. I DO do my fair amount to SVO bashing here too, so for those who will start pointing fingers, I am not a plant.

I think that James has a point, if I get it right, that these people are just that, people with spouses and kids and grandkids trying to make a living. Perhaps they were laid off by their employer and got a FANTASTIC sales pitch about making $$$$$ by the developer for selling these things that people are "asking" to come and buy. Regardless, they are people trying to pay their bills and put food on the table. They make that money by making a sale. Period.

The tactics and misrepresentation used by developers to get you there are another issue and I agree should be relabeled. That is a corporate/developer issue. I do not hold the sales people responsible for that. I do hold them responsible for being belligerent to people who are attending expecting an "update". I do not claim that the sales staff are ignorant of the tactics, but they are not the perpetrators.

I also agree that now, all of us here know what the nature of the "update" is and it is grossly miss-advertised. I to went to my first not knowing any better, but now I do so if I choose to take vacation time to go, I know what I am in for. I feel for all those that do NOT know. I don't think any of us that do know, have any right to B***H:ignore: if we choose to go. We know what we are going to get. If it was my mortgage that need paying I would likely push hard too!

Perhaps there should be another avenue for "update". At the end of the early week welcome breakfast (that we all know is a veiled infomercial) perhaps some knowlegable staff should give a REAL UPDATE, what is new in the resort and system etc. Then those that are interested could go to the "sales update" or whatever they want to call it.

IS THAT NOT FAIR?

PEACE now people. Lets not get personal. Use this venue to better the experience not start a riot. (Although some things ..... oh well )

 

[bruwery]

It would also be fair if they'd take NO for an answer the first time and not call my room every day. Let me enjoy my "lifetime of free vacations".

 

[Scott & Laura]

Owner Update

Owners updates will always be subject to varying degrees of helpfulness.

Most SVO salestaff consist of self interested, unskilled people who insist that others act on their ideas.That is true in every area of life, look at Congress. There "ARE" a few highly skilled salestaff who actively listen and are interested in building a relationship with you at SVO. One SVO salesman in Orlando, was very gracious and explained what an owner update really was.

He said that it "truly" should be an oppurtunity for owners to learn new things, but it is also a salespersons oppurtunity to sell a timeshare. Present owners are far more likely to buy an additional week than those invited by their marketing team. The fact that everyone has a bd taste is because the salepeople "destroy" their oppurtunity.

One time we went Northern Minnesota to expressly buy a timeshare near home. We were told they had an upcoming week and a discount if we bought the day of attending. We went and the salestaff were so demanding, rude and abusive that we left. Even though the money was hanging out of our pockets and our arm was twitching to sign. The same thing happened at WSJ. However our first sales meeting with a Starwood employee was quite the opposite, and we bought at WKORV.

If I was a salesman for SVO, I would learn the strengths of my competitors Marriott etc. and the weaknesses of my own company SVO. I would also learn all about the surrounding area and things to do. I would listen intently and take advantage of every oppurtunity to assist and aid the people in effort to establish the fact I had integrity. Only after meeting their 'ALL' their needs, would I ask for an oppurtunity to explain timeshares, first a global perspective, Secondly I would inform them of why SVO may be better. And lastly, an educated client will make a decision quickly as they have comfort with all the what ifs. The answer may be "NO" but they will leave with my card and speak highly of me. Just look at how "ONE" saleperson would have benefitted form TUG ifthey had treated someone with respect. I assure you TUG members would have advertised their name. They would then have hundreds of salespeople working for them. It is solely through ignorance and inexperience that these "UPDATES" have no value. That is not SVO's fault but rather the salespeople mishandling golden oppurtunities, and to such a large degree that an UPDATE is virtually useless.

I would suggest that next time write down on aorganized list everything you wish to inquire about and ask them to startfrom that point. Please be respectful of them, even though they act poorly, as they are trying to make a living, and are completely inadequately trained.

Keep in mind, "HOW" does Starwood find so many new salespeople ready to start immediately. Anyone with experience and skill is probably already well established.

The salepeople do have one constraint, "TIME" the inventory is limited, sells fast and inexplicably, SVO does not buy back the extremely cheap resales to replenish inventory. They don't need to buy it all back, just enough to have a few. Also SVO could sell spots on waiting lists for future resales they can buy back when oppurtunity presents itself

I am not quite sure of the dynamics as to why they don't.

Any way I doubled my 2 cents worth.
So you now you get a four cent prespective, worth twice as much.

In Regards

Scott

 

[SpikeMauler]

Call me kooky, but it seems a bit crazy to ask people to be considerate of the poor timeshare sales weasels. After all, what part of their presentation is "ethical"?

The part where they tell you it's "only 90 minutes"?
The part where they tell you the deal is only good today?
The part where they tell you they can't complete the deal via mail or fax?
The part where they tell you this an "investment"?
The part where they charge you ten times what you can pay for it elsewhere?
The part where they tell you there is no resale market and the units can only be purchased through them?
The part where they tell you that it'll trade for anyplace you want to go anytime?
The part where they lure you in with artificially low fees?
The part where they conveniently leave the fees out of the cost calculations?
The part where they get surly when they find out you're not buying and accuse you of not loving your family?

Every one of the above happened to me at a Starwood presentation. I attended it on my last day in Maui one visit, before I knew anything about timeshares. I had a couple of hours to kill before catching my flight, so I said "why not?"

I bought, but I made it clear that I'd be rescinding if, upon returning home, anything they told me didn't make sense. By the time I'd gotten on the plane two hours later, I'd already decided to rescind because it didn't take much quiet time to see through some of the distortions.

Imagine my surprise when I returned home and the "rescission" document wasn't included in my paperwork. It took me four days to obtain it, too, because it's not easy to get these "ethical" and upstanding, hard-working citizens to return calls when they know you're cancelling. They were none too friendly at that point, either.

In those four days, I did a lot of digging on the web looking for a copy of said form because I was rather nervous, and in the process, discovered TUG. How refreshing it was to see all my impressions confirmed.

Personally, I think all those sales weasels should go rot in a swamp.

That was the last presentation I ever attended, but it has nothing to do with feeling sorry for weasels. I realize that the economy is allegedly in the tank, but I don't see that as a reason to take pity upon swindlers, weasels, and other forms of lying scumbags.

If this is too harsh, well, I'm sorry. I'm just calling it as I see it.

Stop beating around the bush. Tell us how you really feel. I particularly like the description of salesmen as "Lying Scumbags ". When I went on a Timeshare presentation at WSJ, I was told mostly the same baloney as you. When I told the salesperson I would have to think about it, he said the deal was only good for that day, and that to complete the deal I would have to be there in person to sign off. I told him if I was going to be making an $85,000 investment(his words) in his timeshare, I would have no problem flying back one weekend to sign the paperwork. After all, I'm spending $85,000 on a timeshare. What's another thousand in air fare. He had no answer and changed the subject,but we were pretty much done after that.

 

[3-wack]

Mark is absolutely correct in listing the various inveracious timeshare talking points. My wife has been invoved in TS since 1987 and I've been involved for 7 years. "Without exception" these TS reps have given snake oil salesmen a good reputation. They are the lowest form of human life. Right from the top with their phony interest and "let's be friends" schtick to the abrasive closer who doesn't understand our stupidity in not buying, the whole experience makes me want to re-arrange the chicklets in their lying mouths. We've been to presentations in the US, Canada and Mexico. We recently purchased in Puerto Vallarta and it's becoming clear we were scammed in this venture. If these TS clowns [inappropriate comment removed - DeniseM Moderator] insist that they have been conducting themselves with probity and in a forthright manner then they should start by telling the truth-no evasions, no half-truths, no dissembling, no disingenuous bonhomie. Act professionally and truthfully.

 

[DeniseM]

A clarification: James1975NY has not worked for Starwood for sometime.

He has been very informative as to some of the internal workings of Starwood, and I, for one, appreciate his contributions to TUG. You do not have to agree with him, and you are welcome to debate the issues, but let's not make it personal.

Please remember the TUG rule of courtesy:

Be Courteous
As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!