• Welcome to the FREE TUGBBS forums! The absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 31 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 32 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 32st anniversary: Happy 32st Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    All subscribers auto-entered to win all free TUG membership giveaways!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $24,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $24 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    Tens of thousands of subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

The Monty Hall Problem Strikes Again

"Roger"

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,782
Reaction score
4,908
Quite a while back, there was a thread on this page discussing the "Monty Hall Problem." For those who are interested (and I realize that this is not something that will attact wide interest), there is a New York Times article about how an economics professor claims that a classic study in psychology fell prey to the Monty Hall Problem.

Monty Hall and a classic study in psychology

(If you are curious about what the Monty Hall problem is, the above link describes it at the beginning of the article. The first link in the article itself will give you some idea as to the controversy that the problem initially caused.)
 
Thanks! Would you believe we've discussed the Monty Hall Problem over dinner a couple of times? I want to read the article where he plays the game with Monty Hall!
 
Roger,

Great article. I get it but its still hard to believe. Seems to me that once the one door is eliminated the odds are 50/50 with either door. Another way to look at it would be what if you had two people (A & B) selecting different doors at the same time. Then the third door was revealed which had the goat. Who is more likely to win A or B. In that case it would be the same.

Oh well thanks for the ariticle.
 
But Monty knows, and Monty is showing you one of the doors.
 
Seems to me that once the one door is eliminated the odds are 50/50 with either door.

The odds of picking the correct door are always 50/50, even with three doors. That is because you will either pick the correct one, or an incorrect one.

"Lies, damned lies and statistics. . . ." Benjamin Disraeli
;)
 
Roger,

Great article. I get it but its still hard to believe. Seems to me that once the one door is eliminated the odds are 50/50 with either door. Another way to look at it would be what if you had two people (A & B) selecting different doors at the same time. Then the third door was revealed which had the goat. Who is more likely to win A or B. In that case it would be the same.

Oh well thanks for the ariticle.

I'll try to explain it in words, without going through the math.

When you first select a door, there is a one-third chance that you picked the correct door, and a two-thirds chance the correct door is one of the two you did not pick.

Now, let's imagine a slight variation of the game. The rules are the same, except that when Monty shows you a door he also has no idea what is behind the door he picks. If Monty's door has the car, you lose and the game is over. If Monty's door has a goat, you have the choice of keeping your door or selecting another. Note that the only difference between this and the "real" game is that Monty does not know what is behind his door. Since Monty doesn't know where the car is, one-third of the time he picks the car and you lose.

The other two-thirds of the time - when Monty's door has a goat - the car is equally likely to be behind either door.. In that case it makes no difference if you switch. Note that in this variation of the game your odds of winning are one-third no matter what strategy you employ. One third of the time you lose when Monty opens his door and you aren't even given a chance to switch. Of the remaining two-thirds, you win half of the time.

***

But Monty doesn't play the game that way. Monty knows what door has the car, and when he picks a door he never picks a door that has a car. IOW - Monty eliminates the one-third of outcomes where you lose without having a chance to pick a door. (If you're a craps player, it's like playing a craps game in which 2, 3 or 12 aren't craps - you can never lose on the come out roll.)

Think about how that changes the game. Go back to when you first picked ad door. At that point there was a two-thirds chance that you picked the wrong door. That situation remains. When Monty opens his door, you now know that:
  • There is a two-thirds chance that the car is behind one of the doors you didn't pick.
  • The car is not behind the door that Monty picked - which means that there is a two-thirds chance the car is behind the door Monty did not pick.

****

I think that what hangs up many people on the Monty Hall situation is that they don't appreciate the significance of the fact that Monty does not open a door randomly. In the first variant I laid out, Monty does open a door randomly; in that case door switching doesn't make any difference. But when Monty doesn't select a door at random, the odds change.
 
Last edited:
DB-I-L started his career getting prizes for Let's Make a Deal.
 
Last edited:
DB-I-L started his career as a gofer on that show.............He picked up the cars at the dealership etc.

Really???? That's pretty cool! I think of Let's Make a Deal every time I have to dig for something in my purse!
 
Really???? That's pretty cool! I think of Let's Make a Deal every time I have to dig for something in my purse!

I always thought he was a gofer but I saw online that he worked at an ad agency that got the prizes so I changed my post. I guess he was actually the gofer for the ad agency. I do know he picked up the cars from the dealership for Let's Make a Deal.

"When I graduated from college, I decided to try my hand at being unemployed in a brand-new field, so, I moved from Ohio to Los Angeles and started my career in television. For a number of years, I worked at a small ad agency that specialized in placing prizes on game shows. I made $125 per week. Across the hall, a group of writers were working on a sitcom. They were all making $1000 per week. I did the math and started writing spec scripts."
 
Last edited:
... Would you believe we've discussed the Monty Hall Problem over dinner a couple of times? I ...
Now that really is ... wacky (true to your TUG identity).

(Just so that there is no doubt, this comment is being put forth in good spirit. I admire the poster for having these sorts of discussions within family.)
 
...
I think that what hangs up many people on the Monty Hall situation is that they don't appreciate the significance of the fact that Monty does not open a door randomly. In the first variant I laid out, Monty does open a door randomly; in that case door switching doesn't make any difference. But when Monty doesn't select a door at random, the odds change.
It is hard to say why the problem has confused so many people (including -- I admit, myself -- as well as a subtantial number of mathematicians when Marilyn first discussed the problem in Parade magazine).

My guess is that people make a false comparison with a different sort of situation. Suppose my favorite professional team is two games away from winning the Superbowl. The odds of them winning (set arbitrarily) are one out of four. Now they have won the first game. Having won one out of the two games that they need to win, it would now seen that the odds of them winning it all (the Superbowl) have gone up.

In the same way, I think people think that once Monty has revealed that one of the two doors not chosen has a goat, they think that the odds that they have chosed the correct door have gone up. So, swithing or not switching, they now have a one in two chance of winning, whereas before it was one in three.

(Please remember, I am only speculating on what confuses people. I am not claiming that the comparison I offer is a valid one.)
 
My guess is that people make a false comparison with a different sort of situation. Suppose my favorite professional team is two games away from winning the Superbowl. The odds of them winning (set arbitrarily) are one out of four. Now they have won the first game. Having won one out of the two games that they need to win, it would now seen that the odds of them winning it all (the Superbowl) have gone up.

Your teams odds of winning the Superbowl do go up after they win the first game.

They need to win two games to go to the Superbbowl. Assuming they have a 50% chance of winning in each game, at the start their odds of winning two games in succession are 25%.

But their odds of winning two games in succession, given that they have already won the first of the two games, is now 50%.
 
The better way to think about this is the Deal or No Deal game.

When someone picks a case, this odds are 1 in 26 that you picked the $1m.

If you open 13 cases and the $1m is still there, your new odds are 1 in 13, but in reality, the original odds have not changed at all as your original odds were 1 in 26.

If you are down to the last case then your odds are technically 50%, but in reality the odds were set once you picked the original case at 1 out of 26.

I think the best strategy at that point is to take the money and run as it will be more money than worth the small original odds of picking the $1m.
 
Your teams odds of winning the Superbowl do go up after they win the first game....
Steve, I did realize that. My point was that I think people falsely think that the same thing is happening after Monty opens up one door. That is what is misleading them about the Monty Hall Problem. (But, as I said, this is just a guess.)

The better way to think about this is the Deal or No Deal game...
No, not really. In Deal or No Deal, the contestant randomly picks one of the other cases. Monty does not randomly pick one of the other cases, but intentionally chooses a goat door. That makes a difference in the analysis of the two situations.
 
No, not really. In Deal or No Deal, the contestant randomly picks one of the other cases. Monty does not randomly pick one of the other cases, but intentionally chooses a goat door. That makes a difference in the analysis of the two situations.

Perhaps they should add a goat to the Deal or No Deal game.
 
Steve, I did realize that. My point was that I think people falsely think that the same thing is happening after Monty opens up one door. That is what is misleading them about the Monty Hall Problem. (But, as I said, this is just a guess.)

Ahhh - I see your point and I agree.

After the door is opened, I think people think their chances of winning are now 50%. And that is correct providedMonty opens doors randomly and you lose when Monty opens a door that has a car.

At that point the chances of winning are 50%, given that you have survived the opening of the door by Monty. That's exactly like your Superbowl example, where the odds go up after the team wins the first game.

*****

In a game where Monty opens doors randomly, your overall odds of winning at the time you start the game are 33%, and those overall odds remain the same no matter what strategy you choose.

When Monty no longer opens doors randomly - always opening a door that has a goat - your odds of winning are 33% if you don't switch, but rise to 67% if you do do switch.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, I'll try reading it tomorrow............
 
Top