Title states vs Attorney states - closing

[johnr99]

As I continue my quest to document how to sell my timeshares when I die (may be sooner than I expected after trying to sort through this) I have now come across new terminolgy.

I have learned that South Carolina (where I own one of my timeshares) is an "Attorney state" and that is the reason why I am told many national Timeshare closing companies don't handle SC closings.

I have been told recently that Tennessee (my other timeshare) is also an Attorney-state but I haven't been able to confirm this.

I have also heard that non-"Attorney states" are called "Title States".

Does anyone have any clue as to what the Attorney and Title-state terminolgy means?

Regards, John

 

[Dave M]

I can't answer your question directly, but I will strongly recommend that you see an estate planning attorney about the possibility of setting up a properly structured trust instrument for ownership of your timeshares located in states other than where you live. Combined with other basic estate planning documents, such a trust is an excellent tool for avoiding the potential publicity and expense of probate in your own state, too.

Otherwise the hassle and expense of probate in each of those states after you die may well exceed the value of the timeshares!

 

[johnr99]

Dave M

Thanks for the suggestion.

At this point I am almost to the conclusion that I should sell the timesahres before I die rather than leave it to my estate to figure out.

John

I can't answer your question directly, but I will strongly recommend that you see an estate planning attorney about the possibility of setting up a properly structured trust instrument for ownership of your timeshares located in states other than where you live. Combined with other basic estate planning documents, such a trust is an excellent tool for avoiding the potential publicity and expense of probate in your own state, too.

Otherwise the hassle and expense of probate in each of those states after you die may well exceed the value of the timeshares!

 

[Dave M]

Not a bad idea. The problem is deciding when to sell versus when you plan to die!

 

[John Cummings]

I am speculating that attorney states are those that require an attorney to do real estate contracts vs title states that do not. We have sold homes in both Florida and California. Florida required that we go through an attorney whereas California does not. I may be wrong about timeshares but I am guessing that is what they mean.

I just sold my California timeshare to a California buyer but the closing company is based in Florida.

Both of my timeshares are in our Family Trust.

 

[JudyS]

I haven't heard this terminology (attorney states vs. title states) before either, but I do know that in North Carolina, only a principal or a lawyer can legally prepare a deed. If anyone else does it, it is considered practicing law without a license.

 

[John Cummings]

I haven't heard this terminology (attorney states vs. title states) before either, but I do know that in North Carolina, only a principal or a lawyer can legally prepare a deed. If anyone else does it, it is considered practicing law without a license.

That is the same as Florida which supports what I said in the previous post. In California you can do it all yourself if you wish.

 

[johnr99]

My quest continues......as info I own in SC (Myrtle Beach)and TN (Crossville).

And my confusion is escalating....so based upon the following dialouge where is the ultimate "truth" to be found?

Regards, John.....

I looked at redweek.com and saw that this site "suggests" using First American Title Insurance Company as a "multi-state" closing company. First American web site says:

"If the timeshare property is located in a state that requires an attorney in deed preparation (FL, GA, IL, KY, LA, MD, MA, MI, NJ, NY, NC, OH, OR, SC, TX, VA, WA, DC, WV), First American Title will make these arrangements, but applicable attorney fees will be assessed in addition to the above costs. The state's requirement for attorney participation may lead to a longer closing timeframe. Please ask First American Title for a cost and time estimate"

I emailed First American and they replied that SC and TN are two tough states and I should call them. I did and she said it would be best for me to deal with a local professional and she gave me a name of an Attorney in SC and a title company in TN.

I called the SC attorney and they said they only handle Hilton Head, not Myrtle Beach where my timeshare is located. The issue is Hilton Head is in a different county. They couldn't provide a referral.

I called the TN title company and the receptionist was totally confused as to what I was asking. The title agent was busy with a closing so I need to call back.

So I buzzed over to myresortnetwork.com and noticed they list three closing companies. So I sent an e-mail to all three. Here are the replies:


TIMESHARE TRANSFER, INC

"We do closings in TN, but not SC. Our closing fee is $300."

BACK PORCH TIMESHARE CLOSING, LLC

Oringinal reply.....

"Our closing fee is $395 per closing. This includes document preparation, escrow services and estoppel certificate. Additional fees are recording fees (approx. $20 for SC, $27 for TN), state transfer tax (SC is $3.70 per $1000, TN is .37 cents per $100), and Fairfield transfer fee ($200). SC does impose a fee for nonresident sellers if you recognize a gain on the sale. The process does take a few weeks, sometimes longer with Fairfield. Fairfield will not transfer ownership until they receive a copy of the recorded deed."

My follow-up question....

"Thank you for a prompt reply.

A follow-up question.

I have heard that South Carolina requires "attorney assistance" in closing. I have also heard that Tennessee requires this as well. Seems like some states do and others don't.

My question is does either SC or TN require attorney particpation? If so, what does this mean and does your services and fees listed below satisfy this requirement?"

And their follow-up reply....

"All of our documents are reviewed by an attorney. I hope this answers your question."

And my follow-up question...

"Please confirm for me that your company has recently handled the closings for timeshares in both South Carolina and Tennessee.

If you have and have not run into any deed issues then I think this answers my question."

And their follow-up reply..

"Yes, we have handled timeshares in both states with no problems."


JRA SERVICES, INC

Original reply...

"Our closing fee is $250.00, plus the cost of recording the deed and any resort transfer fee that may apply.
Wyndham will charge a $100.00 transfer fee for each of your timeshares. The recording fees are determined by the state, county and the price. If you give me the prices, I can give you the recording fees.
Even though you will be selling the two timeshares to one buyer, there will still be two separate deeds and two files for us. I can discount the second closing fee and do the second closing for $225.00.
Our closing fee includes an estoppel letter, all document preparation including a closing statement for each party, recording of the deeds and notification to Wyndham, once the deeds have been recorded.
The process will take approximately 45-60 days. The recording is what takes the longest amount of time."

My follow-up question...

"I have heard that South Carolina requires "attorney assistance" in closing. I have also heard that Tennessee requires this as well. Seems like some states do and others don't.

My question is does either SC or TN require attorney particpation? If so, what does this mean and does your services and fees listed below satisfy this requirement?"

And their follow-up reply...

"Yes we can prepare and record deeds in SC and TN. Our documents are attorney reviewed and the attorney's name is on our documents."

 

[PerryM]

All this reminds me of the New Jersey gas mafia

Seems that gas stations in New Jersey are NOT self-service; you can’t pump your own gas. An attendant must come outside and pump the gas for you – you are guilty of pretending to be a gas station attendant if you pump your own gasoline. (It's too dangerous is what the lawyers probably claim)

I’m sure the lawyers in SC and TN have determined that you, the citizen of the US, are just too stupid to do what 48 states allow – filling in the blanks of a standard contract that they themselves have their assistants or kids do.

Just as we fill up our car before entering New Jersey so I would hope that companies avoid these two states on many matters and thus result in less income to all 3 states and a slightly lower standard of living - the people apparently have spoken.

P.S.
We have self checkout lanes in Missouri at many stores - has big unions and big lawyers in other states determined that citizens there are guilty of pretending to be a grocery clerk? Just curious; just wondering how many of us pretend to be doing the tasks of others in a selfish effort to save a buck or two.

 

[John Cummings]

Seems that gas stations in New Jersey are NOT self-service; you can’t pump your own gas. An attendant must come outside and pump the gas for you – you are guilty of pretending to be a gas station attendant if you pump your own gasoline. (It's too dangerous is what the lawyers probably claim)

I’m sure the lawyers in SC and TN have determined that you, the citizen of the US, are just too stupid to do what 48 states allow – filling in the blanks of a standard contract that they themselves have their assistants or kids do.

Just as we fill up our car before entering New Jersey so I would hope that companies avoid these two states on many matters and thus result in less income to all 3 states and a slightly lower standard of living - the people apparently have spoken.

P.S.
We have self checkout lanes in Missouri at many stores - has big unions and big lawyers in other states determined that citizens there are guilty of pretending to be a grocery clerk? Just curious; just wondering how many of us pretend to be doing the tasks of others in a selfish effort to save a buck or two.

Actually 19 states require an attorney to prepare the deed.

 

[sfwilshire]

I am not aware that TN requires an attorney to do a deed. I only had an attorney involved once in any of the real estate transfers I've done in this state, both timeshares and others. That one time was because I couldn't figure out how to do the legal description of the property, which was combining two pieces of property that had been divided in the past.

Sheila

 

[carolbol]

Just as we fill up our car before entering New Jersey
QUOTE]

Perry, Not to get off the subject but why would you do that. Our surrounding states all have gas prices higher than ours and we get service too.....

 

[PerryM]

Just as we fill up our car before entering New Jersey
QUOTE]

Perry, Not to get off the subject but why would you do that. Our surrounding states all have gas prices higher than ours and we get service too.....

Well the next time we pass thru New Jersey I will check my gas price listings that is now on my cell phone. If it's cheaper, and the last time I remember it was higher, I will look forward to the Texaco Man smiling and asking me if I want a fillup, to pop the hood and check the oil, and to check the 4 tires for proper inflation. Well, as a kid I remember they used to do that.

Now I have a great way to find the cheapest gas station since it is now a commodity - and price is all that matters now. My gas finder on the cell phone and my Yahoo Widget save me money every week.

 

[PerryM]

Actually 19 states require an attorney to prepare the deed.

Wow, 19 states believe I'm an idiot - I hope that number has been dropping and not rising. (I realize that this is a perfect setup for someone, but it's 100 degrees in St. Louis now and my brain is fried)

 

[Carolinian]

Perry - Even in those states, a party to the transaction who is not a corporation may prepare a deed for his own transaction. It can be a foolish thing to do in some cases based on some of the screwy home-grown deeds I have seen recorded. Third party professionals have to be licensed to practice law in that state

Those that claim their deeds are ''attorney reviewed'' should be asked more questions. Is the attorney licensed to practice in the state where the timeshare is located? If not, he/she is no better than a layman. Actually, perhaps he is worse, because he will assume he knows what he is doing and draw a deed based on the law of the state where he practices, which may or may not be any good in the state where the timeshare is located. A party religiously copying every detail of a local attorney prepared deed is a better bet to get it right than an attorney from out of state. An out of state attorney not licensed locally can still be charged criminally with the offense of practicing law without a license, and it is probably malpractice in a civil sense, too. Again, I have seen too many out-of-state attorney prepared deeds that are not valid to pass title to anything because of missing a quirk of local law.

 

[Kauai Kid]

I refuse to use self service checkouts in stores because they are depriving someone of an income. In addition, I'm working for the store as a checkout and bag boy for nothing but improving their bottom line. Things aren't any cheaper in the self service line.

Sterling

 

[gmarine]

I refuse to use self service checkouts in stores because they are depriving someone of an income. In addition, I'm working for the store as a checkout and bag boy for nothing but improving their bottom line. Things aren't any cheaper in the self service line.

Sterling

Do you use email? Pay any bills by computer? How about highway tolls, do you use an electronic pay system?

And thats just the beginning. Its all part of the advance of technology. Heck, at one time using a telephone put people out of jobs.

 

[jerseygirl]

Prices as of 8/05, includes heat wave and that gross smell on your hands:

Delaware $2.732
Pennsylvania $2.831
New York $3.072

Price as of 8/05, includes sitting in air conditioned car and clean hands:

$2.712

Of course, you might use a lot of extra gas getting to the gas station, since you can't make a left turn in NJ ....

 

[e.bram]

An attorney is not required, you can do it yourself for yourself. Just copy the old deed, white and replace grantor and grantee. You can't do it for somebody else unless you are an attorney.

 

[PerryM]

An attorney is not required, you can do it yourself for yourself. Just copy the old deed, white and replace grantor and grantee. You can't do it for somebody else unless you are an attorney.

This is what I've watched many a timeshare broker do - scan the document and just replace the old name with the new names - that's it. I bet that's what the attorneys do too.

Why re-invent the wheel? The state accepted the previous deed - the new one simply reflects the change in owner names - the state will then accept the new one. No expensive lawyer needed in the entire process.

 

[PerryM]

Prices as of 8/05, includes heat wave and that gross smell on your hands:

Delaware $2.732
Pennsylvania $2.831
New York $3.072

Price as of 8/05, includes sitting in air conditioned car and clean hands:

$2.712

Of course, you might use a lot of extra gas getting to the gas station, since you can't make a left turn in NJ ....

I do my little part and go out of my way to NOT reward inefficient behavior since I know it's wrong. Or, in cases like Citgo where I never enter that gas station either. It's the least I can do.

 

[sfwilshire]

I refuse to use self service checkouts in stores because they are depriving someone of an income. In addition, I'm working for the store as a checkout and bag boy for nothing but improving their bottom line. Things aren't any cheaper in the self service line.

Sterling

I use self service checkouts because I am more accurate than some of the ten year olds (or so it seems) that run the cash registers around here. The fast ones are hard to watch. I know I scan every item only once. I also look closely at the prices while I scan the items to make sure they are right. I may be a little slow, but I know it's accurate at the end.

Sheila

 

[John Cummings]

I refuse to use self service checkouts in stores because they are depriving someone of an income. In addition, I'm working for the store as a checkout and bag boy for nothing but improving their bottom line. Things aren't any cheaper in the self service line.

Sterling

I use whatever benefits me. If it is to my advantage to use self service then I will. It is the same as shopping on-line. I do a lot of my shopping on-line because it is more convenient and usually considerably cheaper. Using your argument, you would never make hotel nor airline reservations on-line because it may affect some agents job. Isn't technology wonderful.

 

[JimJ]

I worked in high school and college in large supermarkets and have pretty much retained the ability to know prices. At Walmart, their policy is that if an item scans at a different price than is marked on the shelf, then if the item is less than $3.00, you get it for free, or if more than $3.00, you get $3.00 off.

I'm sure I'm one of the few that call them on this very often, but what else do retirees have to do? It adds excitement to the checkout process!!

 

[John Cummings]

I worked in high school and college in large supermarkets and have pretty much retained the ability to know prices. At Walmart, their policy is that if an item scans at a different price than is marked on the shelf, then if the item is less than $3.00, you get it for free, or if more than $3.00, you get $3.00 off.

I'm sure I'm one of the few that call them on this very often, but what else do retirees have to do? It adds excitement to the checkout process!!

I am a retiree and have lots of things to do.