You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[easyrider]

Cite your source for these claims - as someone else already mentioned above.

I don't know why you aren't capable of the copy search function but here is what it reads on Bill AI.

Bill


Recent studies, including reports from Mitchell, indicate that electric vehicles (EVs) are involved in more insurance claims and generally cost 20-30% more to repair than internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. While some studies suggest higher overall repair frequency, others note that EVs have lower maintenance needs (no oil changes). However, EV repairs are often more expensive due to higher parts costs and longer repair times.
Key Findings on EV vs. ICE Repair and Maintenance:

• Higher Repair Costs: In Q2 2024, U.S. EV repair claims averaged $5,753, compared to $4,806 for ICE vehicles, a 20% difference.
• Collision Frequency: EV collision claims have increased, with reports indicating they are becoming more common, partly due to the high acceleration/power of the vehicles.
• Parts and Service: EVs utilize more Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) parts, which are often more expensive, while ICE vehicles benefit from a larger aftermarket, reducing repair costs.
• Maintenance vs. Repair: While EVs often require less routine maintenance (e.g., no oil changes, less brake wear), their repair costs following accidents are higher.
• Repair Challenges: EVs often require specialized, time-consuming repairs, and some data shows they are returned to shops for additional work more often than ICE vehicles.

https://www.batterytechonline.com/market-analysis/quality-study-evs-taken-in-for-repairs-3x-more-often-than-ice-vehicles

Quality Study: EVs Taken In for Repairs 3x More Often than ICE Vehicles​

Problems plague BEVs as traditional OEMs catch up to Tesla in quality, JD Power finds.

 

[Brett]

I don't know why you aren't capable of the copy search function but here is what it reads on Bill AI.

Bill


Recent studies, including reports from Mitchell, indicate that electric vehicles (EVs) are involved in more insurance claims and generally cost 20-30% more to repair than internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. While some studies suggest higher overall repair frequency, others note that EVs have lower maintenance needs (no oil changes). However, EV repairs are often more expensive due to higher parts costs and longer repair times.
Key Findings on EV vs. ICE Repair and Maintenance:

• Higher Repair Costs: In Q2 2024, U.S. EV repair claims averaged $5,753, compared to $4,806 for ICE vehicles, a 20% difference.
• Collisi

Problems plague BEVs as traditional OEMs catch up to Tesla in quality, JD Power finds.

.

In Europe and China "studies" indicated BYD cars cost less than "ICE" ... why?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Problems plague BEVs as traditional OEMs catch up to Tesla in quality, JD Power finds.

BEVs yes, SDVs no - as the last sentence in your examples states. Legacy auto manufacturers build BEVs, Tesla builds SDVs. There is no “catching up” using decades old manufacturing techniques. Two entirely different types of vehicles that simply look similar on the outside, but are very different on the inside.

Not sure what accident rates and insurance claims data along with higher repair costs have to do with reliability?


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[easyrider]

BEVs yes, SDVs no - as the last sentence in your examples states. Legacy auto manufacturers build BEVs, Tesla builds SDVs. There is no “catching up” using decades old manufacturing techniques. Two entirely different types of vehicles that simply look similar on the outside, but are very different on the inside.

Not sure what accident rates and insurance claims data along with higher repair costs have to do with reliability?


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A sdv is just an EV with self driving so I'm not seeing much difference regarding the build other than more software and less cpu. What you are implying is that there is a huge difference between the two regarding reliability. Both are ev's. If an ev's sensor goes out the EV could still run. If the centralized CPU goes out I'm thinking it probably won't run. In the short term, a sdv might be better than an EV but both are ev's and neither is reliable as something like a 2023 Lexus with a 2gr-fks 3.5 liter engine and 8 speed transmission which have been known to be running fine with over 500,000 miles. Tried and true beats might work well if, imo.

Bill

 

[Brett]

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/05/...icles-trump-trade.html?searchResultPosition=1


"Most auto executives expect electric vehicles to eventually become the dominant technology in the United States, even if that shift takes longer than elsewhere.
“I see this as Carney showing the leadership that the U.S. should be showing the world right now,

 

[HitchHiker71]

A sdv is just an EV with self driving so I'm not seeing much difference regarding the build other than more software and less cpu. What you are implying is that there is a huge difference between the two regarding reliability. Both are ev's. If an ev's sensor goes out the EV could still run. If the centralized CPU goes out I'm thinking it probably won't run. In the short term, a sdv might be better than an EV but both are ev's and neither is reliable as something like a 2023 Lexus with a 2gr-fks 3.5 liter engine and 8 speed transmission which have been known to be running fine with over 500,000 miles. Tried and true beats might work well if, imo.

Bill

There are redundant CPUs for that reason - again - everything has been fully re-thought out with safety first, reliability and redundancy as first principles. There IS a huge difference between a SDV and a BEV - your statement about SDVs simply having FSD makes no logical sense - Ford has BlueCruise - GM has Supercruise - none of their BEVs are SDVs for example. Not rethinking manufacturing processes from the ground up, which is what embracing SDVs is all about, is why the legacy manufacturers cannot make money on BEVs - they are largely using the same 50 year old design practices used with ICE vehicles - which simply doesn't scale unless you re-think from the ground up how to build a vehicle using SDV first principles. Let's ask Grok for an analysis to reinforce my point here: https://x.com/i/grok/share/87f742daedb746a1a7c9b670752421c3

Let's refer back to a key interview with Ford's CEO on this topic as well - surrounding lack of vertical integration and the key problems with the legacy manufacturing approaches:

 

[easyrider]

There are redundant CPUs for that reason - again - everything has been fully re-thought out with safety first, reliability and redundancy as first principles. There IS a huge difference between a SDV and a BEV - our statement about SDVs simply having FSD makes no logical sense - Ford has BlueCruise - GM has Supercruise - none of their BEVs are SDVs for example. Not rethinking manufacturing processes from the ground up, which is what embracing SDVs is all about, is why the legacy manufacturers cannot make money on BEVs - they are largely using the same 50 year old design practices used with ICE vehicles - which simply doesn't scale unless you re-think from the ground up how to built a vehicle using SDV first principles. Let's ask Grok for an analysis to reinforce my point here: https://x.com/i/grok/share/87f742daedb746a1a7c9b670752421c3

Let's refer back to a key interview with Ford's CEO on this topic as well - surrounding lack of vertical integration and the key problems with the legacy manufacturing approaches:

I asked Bill AI why sdv is not as reliable as EV. Here is the answer.

Bill

Software-Defined Vehicles (SDVs) are often perceived as less reliable than traditional Electric Vehicles (EVs) or Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) cars because they rely heavily on complex, interconnected software systems rather than solely on mechanical components. While EVs generally have fewer mechanical parts, making them more reliable in terms of powertrain, the added complexity of software-defined features—such as advanced driver-assistance systems (ADAS), infotainment, and over-the-air updates—introduces new failure points.
Here is why SDVs may currently face reliability challenges compared to standard EVs:

• Software Bugs and Complex Codebases: SDVs rely on millions of lines of code to operate, and even minor bugs can cause significant, unexpected, or non-deterministic failures in vehicle functions.
• Centralized Architecture Risks: Unlike distributed systems where a single component failure might not cripple the car, SDVs use a centralized computer system. A software glitch in this central unit can cause multiple critical systems, such as braking or infotainment, to fail simultaneously.
• Cybersecurity Threats: Being constantly connected to the internet makes SDVs vulnerable to hacking and cyberattacks that could potentially control or disable a vehicle, a risk that is lower in less-connected, non-SDV vehicles.
• Premature Launch and "Rushed" Software: The pressure to release new, tech-heavy features often leads to vehicles being launched with unpolished software, resulting in frequent bugs that require subsequent, inconvenient patches.
• Thermal Control Issues: The high-performance computing required for SDVs generates significant heat, which can lead to hardware failure or reduced performance if the cooling systems are not managed correctly.
• Initial Reliability Data: According to studies by Consumer Reports and J.D. Power, many of the vehicles that have struggled with reliability are new EVs that are highly software-driven (e.g., in infotainment and battery management), leading to lower consumer satisfaction compared to traditional, less-complex vehicles.

In summary, the, "Software-defined vehicle (SDV) is dead—or at least, the way we've been talking about it is. For the past few years, the SDV has dominated automotive headlines, tech decks, and product roadmaps... [but] users' expectations have moved far beyond the tech stack."

 

[easyrider]

@HitchHiker71 Basically, my premise is that ev's and modern generation ice vehicles share many of the same problems regarding electronics with some ev's currently having the better drive train because of the restrictions placed on ice vehicles. Without the restrictions placed on ice vehicles, there are many that do operate for decades without major problems.

For ev's to be viable in North America, the EV needs to cost way less, be disposable, and as recyclable, as they are in Asian countries. Currently, used ev's in North America are not a product I would recommend anyone, especially a young family. I would recommend something like a used reliable ice vehicle, probably a Toyota or Honda and some GM and Fords.

Bill

 

[geist1223]

Recently read on BBC Business concerning EV:
Ford took a $19.5 Billion Charge/Hit.
GM took a $7 Billion Charge/Hit.
Stellantis took a $26 Billion Charge/Hit.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Recently read on BBC Business concerning EV:
Ford took a $19.5 Billion Charge/Hit.
GM took a $7 Billion Charge/Hit.
Stellantis took a $26 Billion Charge/Hit.

Because they were using the same tired decades old design, logistical and engineering approaches and essentially built battery powered ICE designed vehicles. Until they learn how to take a ground up SDV based design approach - they will fail. This is what China has done - they learned from Tesla early on - literally taking employees from GigaShanghai over time and hiring them away to replicate what they learned at Tesla. Tesla invented SDVs. Jim Farley at Ford is or was at least attempting to replicate this via a skunkworks team, but Ford recently seems to have given up or at the very least pulled way back on this transition, likely to their detriment especially over the long term. What we have learned is that what Tesla pioneered is far from easy, and the legacy big three were unable to do the same.


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[HitchHiker71]

@HitchHiker71 Basically, my premise is that ev's and modern generation ice vehicles share many of the same problems regarding electronics with some ev's currently having the better drive train because of the restrictions placed on ice vehicles. Without the restrictions placed on ice vehicles, there are many that do operate for decades without major problems.

For ev's to be viable in North America, the EV needs to cost way less, be disposable, and as recyclable, as they are in Asian countries. Currently, used ev's in North America are not a product I would recommend anyone, especially a young family. I would recommend something like a used reliable ice vehicle, probably a Toyota or Honda and some GM and Fords.

Bill

Tesla SDVs already cost less than the average new MSRP on vehicles at nearly $50k, and their average COGS is under $34k. Stop using the same tired old false arguments over and over again like a broken record. That said, people are free to make whatever purchase decisions they want of course. For me and my family, I want them to be as safe as is possible and to not have to drive when they choose - and only Tesla offers the best in safety and is the only company offering a true self driving experience today. Period, full stop.


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[HitchHiker71]

I asked Bill AI why sdv is not as reliable as EV. Here is the answer.

Bill

Software-Defined Vehicles (SDVs) are often perceived as less reliable than traditional Electric Vehicles (EVs) or Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) cars because they rely heavily on complex, interconnected software systems rather than solely on mechanical components. While EVs generally have fewer mechanical parts, making them more reliable in terms of powertrain, the added complexity of software-defined features—such as advanced driver-assistance systems (ADAS), infotainment, and over-the-air updates—introduces new failure points.
Here is why SDVs may currently face reliability challenges compared to standard EVs:

• Software Bugs and Complex Codebases: SDVs rely on millions of lines of code to operate, and even minor bugs can cause significant, unexpected, or non-deterministic failures in vehicle functions.
• Centralized Architecture Risks: Unlike distributed systems where a single component failure might not cripple the car, SDVs use a centralized computer system. A software glitch in this central unit can cause multiple critical systems, such as braking or infotainment, to fail simultaneously.
• Cybersecurity Threats: Being constantly connected to the internet makes SDVs vulnerable to hacking and cyberattacks that could potentially control or disable a vehicle, a risk that is lower in less-connected, non-SDV vehicles.
• Premature Launch and "Rushed" Software: The pressure to release new, tech-heavy features often leads to vehicles being launched with unpolished software, resulting in frequent bugs that require subsequent, inconvenient patches.
• Thermal Control Issues: The high-performance computing required for SDVs generates significant heat, which can lead to hardware failure or reduced performance if the cooling systems are not managed correctly.
• Initial Reliability Data: According to studies by Consumer Reports and J.D. Power, many of the vehicles that have struggled with reliability are new EVs that are highly software-driven (e.g., in infotainment and battery management), leading to lower consumer satisfaction compared to traditional, less-complex vehicles.

In summary, the, "Software-defined vehicle (SDV) is dead—or at least, the way we've been talking about it is. For the past few years, the SDV has dominated automotive headlines, tech decks, and product roadmaps... [but] users' expectations have moved far beyond the tech stack."

Again, specific to Tesla, these are old outdated assumptions and baseless theories, here’s the reality: https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5LWNvcHk_94a3d56e-2b5c-4b68-b272-233d224a0289

Here is an objective, point-by-point analysis of the provided text’s claims specifically as they apply to Tesla vehicles (e.g., Model 3, Model Y, Model S, Model X, Cybertruck). The feedback draws on recent reliability data from sources like Consumer Reports (2025-2026 rankings) and J.D. Power, along with Tesla’s architecture and software practices. Tesla is a leading example of a software-defined vehicle (SDV) with heavy reliance on centralized computing, OTA updates, and software features.

• Software Bugs and Complex Codebases — Tesla vehicles do run on millions of lines of code, and software bugs have historically occurred (e.g., early issues with braking calibration fixed via OTA, or occasional post-update glitches like infotainment freezes or Autopilot/FSD regressions). However, Tesla’s OTA capability allows rapid fixes, often improving functionality over time rather than requiring dealer visits. Recent data shows maturing software contributing to reliability gains, not widespread ongoing failures.

• Centralized Architecture Risks — Tesla pioneered a highly centralized architecture (e.g., fewer ECUs, powerful central computers like HW4), which consolidates functions and enables deep OTA updates. While a major glitch could theoretically affect multiple systems, Tesla’s design has proven scalable and reliable in practice for high-volume models. No evidence indicates frequent simultaneous critical failures (e.g., braking + infotainment) crippling vehicles en masse; instead, it supports continuous improvement and has helped Tesla lead in SDV readiness.

• Cybersecurity Threats — Tesla vehicles are highly connected, with constant internet access for updates and features. This introduces theoretical hacking risks, and there have been isolated demonstrations or concerns. However, no major real-world incidents have disabled vehicles fleet-wide, and Tesla implements security measures (e.g., signed updates). The risk level remains managed compared to less-connected vehicles, though it’s an inherent SDV trade-off.

• Premature Launch and “Rushed” Software — Early Tesla models (e.g., initial Model 3) faced criticism for unpolished software at launch, requiring OTA patches for issues like braking or UI. Tesla’s “ship and iterate” approach has led to some rushed elements, but recent iterations show refinement—e.g., fewer major bugs in newer builds—and OTA has mitigated many problems post-delivery.

• Thermal Control Issues — High-performance computing in Tesla’s systems (e.g., for FSD inference) generates heat, but Tesla’s cooling systems (liquid-cooled batteries and computers) are designed to handle this. No widespread reports link thermal issues to frequent hardware failures in production vehicles; battery and drive unit thermal management is generally praised as a strength.

• Initial Reliability Data (citing Consumer Reports and J.D. Power) — The claim that software-driven EVs (including Tesla) show lower satisfaction is outdated for Tesla’s current lineup. In Consumer Reports’ 2026 rankings (based on recent data), Tesla jumped to #9 most reliable brand overall (up from #17), its first top-10 appearance, with Model Y as the most reliable EV/SUV overall and Model 3 as the most reliable electric car. Legacy models (Model S/X) are average, and Cybertruck below-average, but high-volume models drive the gains due to mature EV powertrain and software refinements. J.D. Power shows Tesla improving in dependability (e.g., 2025 VDS score of 209, better than many luxury brands). EVs overall lag hybrids, but Tesla outperforms most other EVs in these metrics.

• Overall Summary and Quote — The text’s portrayal of SDVs (and implied Tesla issues) as facing major ongoing reliability challenges due to software does not fully align with Tesla’s trajectory. Tesla’s SDV approach—centralized, OTA-heavy—has enabled it to address problems iteratively and achieve top-tier reliability in newer models, contrary to broader industry struggles. The “SDV is dead” quote appears misapplied here, as Tesla continues to lead in SDV implementation and sees reliability benefits from it, not decline.

In short, while some points reflect real historical or general SDV risks, Tesla’s data shows significant reliability improvements in recent years, particularly for software-integrated aspects, making it one of the stronger performers among EVs rather than a cautionary example.


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[Carolinian]

Vermont is seeing another electric bus boondoggle. with its fleet of Green Mountain Transit EV buses. It turns out that the batteries will not charge unless the temperature is over 40 degrees. Good luck with that in the winter in Vermont. But, what the heck, the batteries are being recalled anyway because they are fire hazards.

Green Mountain Transit EV buses out of commission

Green Mountain Transit’s program funds are stretched thin, and so are their buses.

www.wcax.com

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

It all boils down to what do you want from a car?

Different people, different needs/choices.

What I want is a simple, reliable, durable, and practical car; capable of both short range uses and occasional long range uses. Status means nothing to me - but privacy does. I don't want to tracked 24/7 in my car; I don't want to be advertised in my car as well. Just basic transportation. My ICE does this well, I've had it for 14+ years, with no major repairs. Why change?

 

[HitchHiker71]

It all boils down to what do you want from a car?

Different people, different needs/choices.

What I want is a simple, reliable, durable, and practical car; capable of both short range uses and occasional long range uses. Status means nothing to me - but privacy does. I don't want to tracked 24/7 in my car; I don't want to advertised in my car as well. Just basic transportation. My ICE does this well, I've had it for 14+ years, with no major repairs. Why change?

I want a car that can do this - hope for the best plan for the worst:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2019852423980875794

Can your car do this? Ours can. Granted, it’s an outlier anecdotal but real world example. Tesla FSD can literally save lives. Show me another car that can do this with you alone in it.

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[easyrider]

I want a car that can do this - hope for the best plan for the worst:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2019852423980875794

Can your car do this? Ours can. Granted, it’s an outlier anecdotal but real world example. Tesla FSD can literally save lives. Show me another car that can do this with you alone in it.

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Tesla FSD is known to be the cause of proven accidents with some fatal, as well as preventing an anecdotal accident scenario incident. Tesla FSD can literally kill you. Show me another car that can do this ? , lol.

Bill

 

[Brett]

Tesla FSD is known to be the cause of proven accidents with some fatal, as well as preventing an anecdotal accident scenario incident. Tesla FSD can literally kill you. Show me another car that can do this ? , lol.

Bill

Imagine the apocalypse when everyone has "FSD" capabilities. Probably won't happen in our lifetime

 

[easyrider]

Imagine the apocalypse when everyone has "FSD" capabilities. Probably won't happen in our lifetime

View attachment 121692

You are now in the realm of science fiction, lol. In the mean time, I'm sticking with the non-turbo naturally aspirated engines mated to a non-cvt transmission with a proven track record of reliability.

If there is an apocalypse , the Toyota 4Runner would be my first choice of vehicle.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

You are now in the realm of science fiction, lol. In the mean time, I'm sticking with the non-turbo naturally aspirated engines mated to a non-cvt transmission with a proven track record of reliability.

If there is an apocalypse , the Toyota 4Runner would be my first choice of vehicle.

Bill

Yeah, that’s why over 500 Robotaxi’s are already providing L4/L5 AV rides in Austin and Cali, using the same FSD in all Tesla vehicles, right? It’s already here, it’s not science fiction. Soon to be in every major urban center in the US, at 25% of the price of Uber/Lyft and Waymo - who are the walking dead.


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[HitchHiker71]

Tesla FSD is known to be the cause of proven accidents with some fatal, as well as preventing an anecdotal accident scenario incident. Tesla FSD can literally kill you. Show me another car that can do this ? , lol.

Bill

And yet it’s already 7x safer than human drivers, and this is the worse it will ever be, soon to be 20-100x safer than human drivers. I’ll take those odds any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


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[easyrider]

And yet it’s already 7x safer than human drivers, and this is the worse it will ever be, soon to be 20-100x safer than human drivers. I’ll take those odds any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


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But when you are behind the wheel, probably driving somewhat distracted, it's only level 2 supervised driving, meaning you are driving the Tesla. You already claimed you hit a pothole which caused damage to your Tesla which makes me think you are relying on the FSD too much.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

But when you are behind the wheel, probably driving somewhat distracted, it's only level 2 supervised driving, meaning you are driving the Tesla. You already claimed you hit a pothole which caused damage to your Tesla which makes me think you are relying on the FSD too much.

Bill

Bottom line, FSD is the future, which will be proven out in reality later this year when FSD goes unsupervised entirely. Then what is your tired old argument going to be? The proof is in simply looking at the past just two years ago, and where FSD was just two years ago, and where it is now, screenshot below for proof. FSD is dutifully marching toward the long trail of nines that inevitably delivers FSD Unsupervised. These are real world stats from our own vehicle. Can your car do this? Can your car save your life if/when needed? If you had a stroke tomorrow and could no longer drive, your license suspended, how are you going to get around? With a Tesla, you don’t lose your mobility and independence. With any other vehicle, you do. It’s rather ironic to me, with examples like I posted above, that those most skeptical cohort, older retirees, are also the most likely cohort to lose the ability to drive and are at the highest risk for serious health problems, where FSD can literally save lives, or preserve mobility and independence. Old habits die hard I guess, but mark my words, if/when the Baby Boomers face loss of mobility and independence, watch how quickly they all have a sudden change of heart/mind, you included. It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when, for all of us, myself included. I represent the future, you represent the past.

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[Ralph Sir Edward]

Bottom line, FSD is the future, which will be proven out in reality later this year when FSD goes unsupervised entirely. Then what is your tired old argument going to be? The proof is in simply looking at the past just two years ago, and where FSD was just two years ago, and where it is now, screenshot below for proof. FSD is dutifully marching toward the long trail of nines that inevitably delivers FSD Unsupervised. These are real world stats from our own vehicle. Can your car do this? Can your car save your life if/when needed? If you had a stroke tomorrow and could no longer drive, your license suspended, how are you going to get around? With a Tesla, you don’t lose your mobility and independence. With any other vehicle, you do. It’s rather ironic to me, with examples like I posted above, that those most skeptical cohort, older retirees, are also the most likely cohort to lose the ability to drive and are at the highest risk for serious health problems, where FSD can literally save lives, or preserve mobility and independence. Old habits die hard I guess, but mark my words, if/when the Baby Boomers face loss of mobility and independence, watch how quickly they all have a sudden change of heart/mind, you included. It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when, for all of us, myself included. I represent the future, you represent the past.

View attachment 121699


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Yes, we'll be dragged into the future, kicking and screaming. At a certain point in life, things like freedom and privacy mean nothing, as you are no longer able to do much of anything.

But until then, we'll "ride our ponies", dangerous or not, when we want, where we want, for as long as we want, without "Big Brother" watching our every move.

 

[easyrider]

If you had a stroke tomorrow and could no longer drive, your license suspended, how are you going to get around? With a Tesla, you don’t lose your mobility and independence.

This is probably the best comment I've heard about FSD. Eventually, many will get old enough to benefit from FSD.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Yes, we'll be dragged into the future, kicking and screaming. At a certain point in life, things like freedom and privacy mean nothing, as you are no longer able to do much of anything.

But until then, we'll "ride our ponies", dangerous or not, when we want, where we want, for as long as we want, without "Big Brother" watching our every move.

I'm with you 100% !!!

Bill