New scientific paper: offshore wind turbines alter marine eco-system, could shift ocean currents

[davidvel]

You have deflected to a niche topic. Intermittent energy is not free and its true cost is based on all the system costs, which wind / solar advocates try to ignore. I am championing dispatchable base load power sources, which are dependable, not intermittent, and not just current ones. Geothermal and fusion, both still largely or totally in development stages offer great potential. They are also NOT land intensive where they are a threat to the environment like wind and solar "farms" are.

Deflected? Because I am not following your false narrative?

It is hardly niche, but if you think it is, you must agree in situ solar should be expanded dramatically, maybe 10-20x. You have failed to say why it is bad, and how it is not free after a few years, instead pointing to something else no one is proposing on a grand scale.

Are there more panels on your so called Solar Farms or on homes and businesses? Utilities building Solar Farms is far more niche. You have failed to refute anything I've said because it is impossible to do so. Adding more free energy sources to the grid is always a good thing, especially when it is intermittently available when demnad is the highest. So much so, the utilities are fighting back because they lose profits when people can power their homes and businesses for free.

Your intermittent ideology is also misguided. The greatest thing about solar is it works best when energy demand is the greatest, and not at night when existing supply far exceeds demands and plants sit idly by. Dr. INTERMITTANT, we do not need solar energy production at night, never have, never will.

You cling to the far, long gone past because that is when you were created. You are scared of the future and blinded by misguided ideology. Carry on, err Carolina on.

 

[Carolinian]

Deflected? Because I am not following your false narrative?

It is hardly niche, but if you think it is, you must agree in situ solar should be expanded dramatically, maybe 10-20x. You have failed to say why it is bad, and how it is not free after a few years, instead pointing to something else no one is proposing on a grand scale.

Are there more panels on your so called Solar Farms or on homes and businesses? Utilities building Solar Farms is far more niche. You have failed to refute anything I've said because it is impossible to do so. Adding more free energy sources to the grid is always a good thing, especially when it is intermittently available when demnad is the highest. So much so, the utilities are fighting back because they lose profits when people can power their homes and businesses for free.

Your intermittent ideology is also misguided. The greatest thing about solar is it works best when energy demand is the greatest, and not at night when existing supply far exceeds demands and plants sit idly by. Dr. INTERMITTANT, we do not need solar energy production at night, never have, never will.

You cling to the far, long gone past because that is when you were created. You are scared of the future and blinded by misguided ideology. Carry on, err Carolina on.

When it is cold and snowy, solar does not work. That is a period of high demand. Rain, clouds, frost, fog, dew, etc. also stop solar from working and that also may be in high demand times. Energy that is weather dependent is simply not reliable. And when it craps out in a winter blizzard, that is a real problem. That video explains the system costs and why solar and wind energy are far from "free".

Australian energy blogger Jo Nova explains why solar panels on people's roofs do NOT make electricity "cheaper" for other utility customers:

Solar Power hits the death spiral vertical rise in Australia « JoNova

joannenova.com.au

Solar panels on buildings here are a rarity. That may be different in the Peoples Republic of California. It was not the last time I was there but that was quite a few years ago. Don't assume California is an example of the country because it is not. Your state is as pushy as the German government in promoting this stuff. Your electric rates reflect that. They are a good bit higher than ours.

It is generally not utilities building solar farms. It is solar farm developers. They get their tax credits and then sell the solar farm to an LLC to operate that usually has little in the way of assets other than the solar panels on leased land. Good luck on finding anyone to decommission them and clean them up. The one big solar farm in our county, built before our local county commission got a solar ordinance in place and highly objected to by the community, was built by a company owned by a Russian who was living in a northern state.

 

[Brett]

When it is cold and snowy, solar does not work. That is a period of high demand. Rain, clouds, frost, fog, dew, etc. also stop solar from working and that also may be in high demand times. Energy that is weather dependent is simply not reliable. And when it craps out in a winter blizzard, that is a real problem. That video explains the system costs and why solar and wind energy are far from "free".

Solar panels on buildings here are a rarity. That may be different in the Peoples Republic of California. It was not the last time I was there but that was quite a few years ago. Don't assume California is an example of the country because it is not.

It is generally not utilities building solar farms. It is solar farm developers. They get their tax credits and then sell the solar farm to an LLC to operate that usually has little in the way of assets other than the solar panels on leased land. Good luck on finding anyone to decommission them and clean them up. The one big solar farm in our county, built before our local county commission got a solar ordinance in place and highly objected to by the community, was built by a company owned by a Russian who was living in a northern state.

OMG !


I've heard the Hoover dam won't generate electricity without water - is that true?

 

[emeryjre]

Funny how you have to find paid bloggers from Australia to present your “evidence”
Looks like the coal industry there has a big payroll to pay people to spread disinformation
Australia has no nuclear industry
Coal interests are fighting hard to keep coal relevant
Natural Gas is replacing coal as the base load supplier

 

[Carolinian]

Because there is no "off switch" for rooftop solar, it can create problems with too much generation as well as too little. Around lunchtime in spring and fall when there is no need for heat or airconditioning, it can bring down the system with too much unneeded power. Australian energy blogger Jo Nova explains what is known as the Duck Curve.

Solar overload — “Costs a fortune” as the super Duck Curve flood of electricity hits Australia « JoNova

joannenova.com.au

Australian grid risks an overload at lunchtime as solar power floods the system « JoNova

www.joannenova.com.au

 

[emeryjre]

Wow
The duck curve
Explained years ago on this site
Still not relevant to your arguments about energy and solar
Utilities adjusted years ago
No need to bring on base load from overnight idle

 

[Carolinian]

Funny how you have to find paid bloggers from Australia to present your “evidence”
Looks like the coal industry there has a big payroll to pay people to spread disinformation
Australia has no nuclear industry
Coal interests are fighting hard to keep coal relevant
Natural Gas is replacing coal as the base load supplier

Brett constantly posts from sites connected to the climate industrial complex, paid mouthpieces. However, where is your proof that Jo Nova is paid by anyone, or is that just an assumption, a guess?

Australia has an interesting history with wind / solar. The state government of South Australia was where it started, and they obsessed with it as much as the German government, blowing up all their coal plants. That gave them the highest power prices in Australia, frequent rolling blackouts, and the first ever statewide blackout. Even with the national government now trying to push wind and solar hard, South Australia still has the highest power prices in the country. It also led to a local political party that only operated in South Australia winning three of their federal senate seats on a platform of opposing wind and solar. On the national scene, a minor political party that has the most hardline position against wind and solar has now reached 17% in the polls, up from the 5% they got in the last election. One of the three major national parties has now for the first time taken a firm stand against wind and solar, and another major national party has changed its position to saying they now oppose wind and solar in places where the local people do not want it. The tide is turning in Australia, but their grid may get wrecked before it can make a difference.

 

[Carolinian]

Wow
The duck curve
Explained years ago on this site
Still not relevant to your arguments about energy and solar
Utilities adjusted years ago
No need to bring on base load from overnight idle

Idling base load is one of the system costs that makes intermittent energy so expensive by the time it reaches your meter boc.

Where the duck curve matters is when there is so much rooftop solar with no off switch that it can crash the system by overwhelming it with unneeded power in mid-day during low demand seasons, as those articles explained.

In contrast, wind turbines do have an off switch, and large scale solar farms also do. Indeed in the windy but low electric demand seasons like spring, in the UK, many wind turbines are just turned off. The turbine owners still get paid for the power they could have produced and the cost of that is billed to electric customers. That is just another system cost of wind and solar that customers have to suck up, but it prevents a system overload. Rooftop solar does not have that.

Germany is finding the same thing from cheap Chinese rooftop solar panels that are not controllable. There was an article about that last year in the daily Handlesblatt which warned of blackouts as a result.

Energie: Angst vor Solar-Infarkt – Stromnetz-Betreiber fürchten Blackouts

Der rasante Ausbau der Photovoltaik stellt die Betreiber der Stromverteilnetze vor Probleme. Sie warnen vor punktuellen Stromausfällen. Viele Gegenmaßnahmen greifen erst in Jahren.

www.handelsblatt.com

For those who do not speak German, the article is translated and quoted at No Tricks Zone

‘Handelsblatt’ Reports: Photovoltaics “Causing Problems Electricity Distribution Grids

notrickszone.com

 

[ScoopKona]

Another anti-science kook...

Joanne Nova - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joanne_Nova

 

[emeryjre]

Here is a good explanation of the system costs of intermittent wind and solar, starting at about the 6:00 point on the video. I have posted this before but maybe you will finally get it this time.

I have also pointed out the clear result of going hog wild on wind and solar and what it does to power prices. I have challenged you to present ANY country where building lots of wind and solar has reduced power prices, and you have failed to produce any. In the real world, countries that do that see their power prices skyrocket like Germany and the UK. Consumers, residential and business, pay a whole lot less for power in nuclear powered France and coal powered Poland than they do in wind and solar obsessed Germany and the UK. I posted an article from the Wall Street Journal on how wind and solar were sold to Europeans as reducing power costs but had actually raised them substantially to consumers, generating a backlash.

Boardi

Idling base load is one of the system costs that makes intermittent energy so expensive by the time it reaches your meter boc.

Where the duck curve matters is when there is so much rooftop solar with no off switch that it can crash the system by overwhelming it with unneeded power in mid-day during low demand seasons, as those articles explained.

In contrast, wind turbines do have an off switch, and large scale solar farms also do. Indeed in the windy but low electric demand seasons like spring, in the UK, many wind turbines are just turned off. The turbine owners still get paid for the power they could have produced and the cost of that is billed to electric customers. They is just another system cost of wind and solar that customers have to suck up, but it prevents a system overload. Rooftop solar does not have that.

Germany is finding the same thing from cheap Chinese rooftop solar panels that are not controllable. There was an article about that last year in the daily Handlesblatt which warned of blackouts as a result.

Energie: Angst vor Solar-Infarkt – Stromnetz-Betreiber fürchten Blackouts

Der rasante Ausbau der Photovoltaik stellt die Betreiber der Stromverteilnetze vor Probleme. Sie warnen vor punktuellen Stromausfällen. Viele Gegenmaßnahmen greifen erst in Jahren.

www.handelsblatt.com

For those who do not speak German, the article is translated at No Tricks Zone

‘Handelsblatt’ Reports: Photovoltaics “Causing Problems Electricity Distribution Grids

notrickszone.com

Hasn’t crashed yet
Duck Curve has always existed
The idling plants were producing electricity for the base load
If we used those plants at all times our total cost of electricity would be higher
Not a concept you accept
But the math is real
One of the reasons utility companies are showing higher profits
Boarding plane soon
Pleasant holidays to all

 

[Brett]

Another anti-science kook...

For some reason there are now many "anti-science" kooks

.

 

[emeryjre]

Your Aussie buddy shows numbers which are not substantiated
They don’t even have nuclear plants which he shows in his analysis

 

[davidvel]

When it is cold and snowy, solar does not work. That is a period of high demand. Rain, clouds, frost, fog, dew, etc. also stop solar from working and that also may be in high demand times. Energy that is weather dependent is simply not reliable. And when it craps out in a winter blizzard, that is a real problem. That video explains the system costs and why solar and wind energy are far from "free".

Australian energy blogger Jo Nova explains why solar panels on people's roofs do NOT make electricity "cheaper" for other utility customers:

Solar Power hits the death spiral vertical rise in Australia « JoNova

joannenova.com.au

Solar panels on buildings here are a rarity. That may be different in the Peoples Republic of California. It was not the last time I was there but that was quite a few years ago. Don't assume California is an example of the country because it is not. Your state is as pushy as the German government in promoting this stuff. Your electric rates reflect that. They are a good bit higher than ours.

It is generally not utilities building solar farms. It is solar farm developers. They get their tax credits and then sell the solar farm to an LLC to operate that usually has little in the way of assets other than the solar panels on leased land. Good luck on finding anyone to decommission them and clean them up. The one big solar farm in our county, built before our local county commission got a solar ordinance in place and highly objected to by the community, was built by a company owned by a Russian who was living in a northern state.

How can our energy prices get higher when they are free? I don't live in Germany, Australia or all the other places you cite. I have described how great solar panels are where these is a lot of sun, and you seem to agree. I certainly wouldn't live where it snows. Our highest demand is during the summer, on work days, from 1-7 pm. There is no rain at that time. Coincidentally this is when solar panels generate the most energy.

This duck crap thing is wholly made up.

 

[TolmiePeak]

How much energy is getting wasted by this thread???

 

[davidvel]

Brett constantly posts from sites connected to the climate industrial complex, paid mouthpieces. However, where is your proof that Jo Nova is paid by anyone, or is that just an assumption, a guess?

Australia has an interesting history with wind / solar. The state government of South Australia was where it started, and they obsessed with it as much as the German government, blowing up all their coal plants. That gave them the highest power prices in Australia, frequent rolling blackouts, and the first ever statewide blackout. Even with the national government now trying to push wind and solar hard, South Australia still has the highest power prices in the country. It also led to a local political party that only operated in South Australia winning three of their federal senate seats on a platform of opposing wind and solar. On the national scene, a minor political party that has the most hardline position against wind and solar has now reached 17% in the polls, up from the 5% they got in the last election. One of the three major national parties has now for the first time taken a firm stand against wind and solar, and another major national party has changed its position to saying they now oppose wind and solar in places where the local people do not want it. The tide is turning in Australia, but their grid may get wrecked before it can make a difference.

We all know this is just political ideology to you, as it clearly is not rational. Almost all your posts refer to governments and politics.

 

[Brett]

We all know this is just political ideology to you, as it clearly is not rational. Almost all your posts refer to governments and politics.

Of course, the thread is really about extreme right wing politics (non-rational)

 

[Brett]

How much energy is getting wasted by this thread???

I'm thinking ........... kilowatts !!

 

[Carolinian]

Boardi

Hasn’t crashed yet
Duck Curve has always existed
The idling plants were producing electricity for the base load
If we used those plants at all times our total cost of electricity would be higher
Not a concept you accept
But the math is real
One of the reasons utility companies are showing higher profits
Boarding plane soon
Pleasant holidays to all

The real world disagrees with you. Ask a German.

 

[Carolinian]

How can our energy prices get higher when they are free? I don't live in Germany, Australia or all the other places you cite. I have described how great solar panels are where these is a lot of sun, and you seem to agree. I certainly wouldn't live where it

https://twitter.com/x/status/1989789662362452166

snows. Our highest demand is during the summer, on work days, from 1-7 pm. There is no rain at that time. Coincidentally this is when solar panels generate the most energy.

This duck crap thing is wholly made up.

It is called system costs and I have posted quite a bit of material on that. Here is the co-founder of the environmental group Greenpeace to explain it to you:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1989789662362452166

Even emeryjre acknowledges that he has known about the Duck Curve for a long time, but you claim it is "made u[" ??????

California has pushed wind and solar very hard but it has some of the highest power prices in the country.

Heck even Duke Energy when they were pushing their bill to push wind and solar in NC admitted that shutting down coal as they wanted and moving to wind and solar would raise electric rates for customers. Their legislation even contained ways that it would be faster for them to raise rates. The Senate hearing was full of consumers, both residential and industrial and consumers groups opposing the bill because it would raise electric rates. At least here, nobody was denying the obvious about wind and solar raising the cost of electricity to consumers.

 

[davidvel]

It is called system costs and I have posted quite a bit of material on that. Here is the co-founder of the environmental group Greenpeace to explain it to you:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1989789662362452166

I don't care about system costs, our energy is basically free. What do you pay a month? You post lots of garbage from gibberish spouting cultists; doesn't change fact.

 

[Brett]

The real world disagrees with you. Ask a German.

I asked a .... China (man) !


.

.

 

[Carolinian]

We all know this is just political ideology to you, as it clearly is not rational. Almost all your posts refer to governments and politics.

I have posted commentary from a variety of ideologies. Michael Moore, for example, is a well known lefty. His documentary, "Planet of the Humans" exposes the flaws of wind and solar including their environmental damage.

Polling that applies to parties positions on wind and solar are all I have discussed, and not even named the parties. That is showing public opinion on wind and solar when people support parties that want to shut it down or restrain it. It is like Brett constantly deleting the name of an American politician in his posts even though it is clear even with the deletion who he is referring to.

 

[Carolinian]

I asked a .... China (man) !


.


View attachment 119707





.

Get Real, Brett. China makes 80% of the world's solar panels so they have to try to promote this stuff. The reality however is that China's coal use in 2025 was at an all time high, according to Bloomberg.

China and India Keep Global Coal Demand Rising | OilPrice.com

Bloomberg: Global coal demand rose to an all-time high in 2025, up 0.5% y-on-y to 8,845 million tons.

oilprice.com

 

[Brett]

The poor China (men)

.

 

[Carolinian]

I don't care about system costs, our energy is basically free. What do you pay a month? You post lots of garbage from gibberish spouting cultists; doesn't change fact.

So? Greenpeace is a cult?