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Are Smaller/Independent Resorts in Trouble?

Last time we were at the Waiohai the average age at the owners social was 75. I'm 55 and was by far the youngest person there.

Some resorts and some locations almost seem full of very old persons. Many of the Hawaiian resorts and some of the Mexican resorts are looking this way. Kauai and Maui is loaded with complaining chair hogging oldsters that get up at first light to towel chairs which is another reason why we go elsewhere, lol. Oddly, I am at the beginning of being an older man but I still think like a young man. This getting older thing kind of sucks.

Bill
 
Last time we were at the Waiohai the average age at the owners social was 75. I'm 55 and was by far the youngest person there.
I think the socials tend to attract the older folks.
I know my mom enjoys them and she’s 86, me at 59 don’t really attend.
 
Several problems that are more acute for independent resorts:
1. Ineffective or non-existent active sales. Resorts must have some sales to balance default rates.
2. Insufficient reserves set aside for maintenance and/or upgrades.
3. Higher average age of resorts (implying a greater need for maintenance and/or upgrades than newer properties).
4. Less age diverse group of owners (sales were made a long time ago, see #1, disproportionate number of owners aging out of timeshare ownership)
5. Value proposition isn't as compelling for independent resorts (for a number of reasons)
6. Past and present mismanagement by BODs and/or management companies.
 
I suspect the timeshare industry as a whole may be facing a demographic bomb at some point. How many timeshare owners do you know who are younger than 40?
I was interested in my 30s but didn't have the $8k or so to buy HGVC resale and reimburse the years MFs and close. The $2k a year wasn't really an issue, just saving that much up vs using it for other things. Had I realized I could have grabbed Wyndham (and felt comfortable doing so) for much less, I probably would have. But very very few people have retail prices in discretionary funds to begin with, and even less in their 20s or 30s I'd wager. Just because the first buy in is in the 40s-50s doesn't mean the industry is going to die out, as long as replacement numbers buy in at that age.

Most of the "problems" of the industry like insane retail prices, lying sales pitches and overall bad reputation seem to maybe limit the overall potential size of the industry, but aren't actually hurting it as a whole. For whatever reason more people pay off the loans and pay the MFs( while bitching rather than using it ) than default that the industry is doing fine. And while the MFs are ~$1,000 or less a year, I think this may continue indefinitely - people hate hard cancellation of recurring charges, and timeshares might be the hardest.

I think the real tipping point is if the MFs get high enough (like many complaining re MVC and 30% increases over the last couple years) that it's not a "this is kind of annoying I'm paying this money down the drain" and tips over into "I need to get rid of this waste cause it's a noticeable percentage of my income". As long as the "happy knowledgeable and getting value out of timeshares" percentage of owners is the population of TUG more or less, then the MFs tipping point is IMO held lower. I.e. Reporting seems to imply that average people will dump ~ $200 or so a month into takeout/coffee because at work, but they also get a value out of that. I think a surprising number of people will not really track down ~ $90 a month, but as that starts hitting more like $400 a month with MFs getting into the $4,000+ range - people start to ask themselves questions. And this is an issue regardless of if you get retail or resale, but the mortgages make it much easier to hit those monthly fees. Supposedly these MFs are necessary to maintain the resorts.

And this all comes back to the current business model. When your main plan is to basically trick people into paying yearly for something they can't really use (like a really expensive gym membership, but worse cause you usually could just show up to the gym with like 5 minutes forethought to drive there) - you can't also increase that cost forever. I think you have to either keep the cost low or actually increase the value to the customer. I've said before how I think places could do that, but I don't think independents really have the sales staff which is the issue. I think open RCI / II / whatever resorts do have a value proposition, especially if they moved to a tiny or free buy in on returned weeks, and made it easy to return the week - but they don't have the ability to do that in a lot of cases.
 
I think all timeshares should have an exit plan for both its owners and the timeshare itself.

This is easier to say in one sentence than to execute, however.
 
BOD is for the resort, but MROP owns 300+ units and Capital Vacation bought 100 and is under contract to buy more. And ridiculously, they are also managing company after they bought VRI
Conflict of interest in this deal by Capital Vacations, Managing and buying units but now not paying maint. fees, what are they going to turn themselves over to collections or what??? Fishy business
 
I think all timeshares should have an exit plan for both its owners and the timeshare itself.

This is easier to say in one sentence than to execute, however.
I was musing above about how independent timeshares could continue and I think taking a page from Magic Tree and Craig Lodges and maybe Hapimag - you don't need a huge sales staff necessarily if you're providing even moderate value for MFs.

I'd suggest the following might well work - especially if there's no developers around any more to "need retail sales".
  1. At least have a basic bulletin board in person and online where owners can ask to list their timeshares for sale or giveaway.
  2. Encourage owners to look there if they want inexpensive additional weeks.
  3. List any foreclosed timeshares there themselves
  4. Figure out RCI or II enough to dump unused inventory or delinquent inventory into Extra Vacations or Last Calls to get something towards the MF.
I.e. get the wanted to be returned weeks in front of people who probably want the weeks a la other existing owners or their relatives. Have some answer for people trying to get out other than "eventually we are holding the bag when you die".

The other alternative seems to be getting someone like Vacation Village or Capital Vacations to take over management and get you into some sort of points program (or maybe RCI points also??) which I can't really say if they're any good - but like someone else said, RCI and II have steep exchange fees now (though I still think if this is a lower MF independent even adding the exchange fee would make the cost reasonable and way up the utility, and may get more people wanting to buy or take over).
 
Would it help the value proposition for independent resorts if they were allowed to have different maintenance fees for high demand season versus lower demand seasons?
I don't know if that's even allowed in some states. I think @rickandcindy23 may have relevant experience with an independent Colorado resort.
 
VAC's Q2 results weren't good but don't signal real "trouble" for the big guys. Plodding along
 
VAC shares were down 7.92% today. That’s not plodding along.
Good news is that they expect maintenance fee increases to be under 5% this year for trust points. Not sure I call that good news, but they tried to play it up as a good thing. I listened to the call, most of the answers to questions were a bunch of word salad.
 
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VAC shares were down 7.92% today. That’s not plodding along.
I read today that this is the most volatile "earnings season" since the GFC, meaning biggest reactions both up & down (but mostly down) to earnings results.
There is the stock. There is the business. Investors do what investors do. The biz seems to be plodding along, not that I make any practice of studying those companies.
Heck, I think MSFT was down that much after it announced, and then it recovered even more than that early the next day (today) and then lost most of it again.
It is wild out there. Too many people with ADD playing around with OPM
 
word salad
being Michelin-starred maker of word salad is high on the list of CEO job reqts, far above understanding what goes on in the trenches on a std day.
and meanwhile, Maui waiting to pass the 1 yr mark on the fire. It won't be til maybe a yr from now that there will be a decent Y/Y comparison for Maui for them. "decent" meaning one that will really mean something, not that it will surely be strong.
 
ps: wait til you see what Intel does tomorrow. WOOF! WOOF! maybe AMZN too.
Heck, Hershey's went from $197 to $191 this AM & then recovered to get to $199.50. I could name 8 or 10 of em.

When stocks are as expensive as they are now, you know the people who bought most recently are Fast Money.
 
ps: wait til you see what Intel does tomorrow. WOOF! WOOF! maybe AMZN too.
Heck, Hershey's went from $197 to $191 this AM & then recovered to get to $199.50. I could name 8 or 10 of em.

When stocks are as expensive as they are now, you know the people who bought most recently are Fast Money.
Aren't the majority of stocks very cheap by historical P/E ratios?
 
Would it help the value proposition for independent resorts if they were allowed to have different maintenance fees for high demand season versus lower demand seasons?
I don't know if that's even allowed in some states. I think @rickandcindy23 may have relevant experience with an independent Colorado resort.
Most modern points timeshare ownership works that way, with more valuable weeks getting more points, for example. In some older systems, making such changes may be difficult or impossible.

I can see people who own the prime weeks not wanting to pay more. The people who own the mud weeks defaulting, leaving the people with the prime weeks even more in control.

I'm sure there is a lot of pressure in some of these older reports to keep fees low, leading to poor maintenance, lack of refurbs, lack of amenities, etc. That causes even more owners to default and makes the place nothing you would want to own.

It is a death spiral.
 
Aren't the majority of stocks very cheap by historical P/E ratios?
I see what you did there and I could point out 5 or 7 qualifiers, which is almost as many as the # words in the comment. But, bottom line:
I know you want to focus on Fig 2, but look at Fig 4 and think about it for a while
 
ps: wait til you see what Intel does tomorrow. WOOF! WOOF! maybe AMZN too.
Heck, Hershey's went from $197 to $191 this AM & then recovered to get to $199.50. I could name 8 or 10 of em.

When stocks are as expensive as they are now, you know the people who bought most recently are Fast Money.

Spot on!
 
I see what you did there and I could point out 5 or 7 qualifiers, which is almost as many as the # words in the comment. But, bottom line:
I know you want to focus on Fig 2, but look at Fig 4 and think about it for a while
Shoot, I just wish I knew what I was even looking at in those graphs.
 
wish I knew what I was even looking at
LOL. I remember the 1st time I looked at Yardeni's chartbook. "Cool, now what exactly is that?" Yardeni is legendary for his various busy but not TOO busy charts.
Figuring it out is the key to REALLY understanding / appreciating it.
 
I see what you did there and I could point out 5 or 7 qualifiers, which is almost as many as the # words in the comment. But, bottom line:
I know you want to focus on Fig 2, but look at Fig 4 and think about it for a while
Yeah those graphs refute the notion that stocks are overvalued. Sure some stocks are but when you can buy many high quality stocks for < 10 P/E things are out of whack.
 
Yeah those graphs refute the notion that stocks are overvalued. Sure some stocks are but when you can buy many high quality stocks for < 10 P/E things are out of whack.
Isn't a lot of earnings up just due to inflation though? So I guess it's just lagging to hit the stock market right now? The fact I can't really understand much of this or have the time to learn is why I'm mostly in index funds with a dividend focus.
 
I was musing above about how independent timeshares could continue and I think taking a page from Magic Tree and Craig Lodges and maybe Hapimag - you don't need a huge sales staff necessarily if you're providing even moderate value for MFs.

I'd suggest the following might well work - especially if there's no developers around any more to "need retail sales".
  1. At least have a basic bulletin board in person and online where owners can ask to list their timeshares for sale or giveaway.
  2. Encourage owners to look there if they want inexpensive additional weeks.
  3. List any foreclosed timeshares there themselves
  4. Figure out RCI or II enough to dump unused inventory or delinquent inventory into Extra Vacations or Last Calls to get something towards the MF.
I.e. get the wanted to be returned weeks in front of people who probably want the weeks a la other existing owners or their relatives. Have some answer for people trying to get out other than "eventually we are holding the bag when you die".
I offer free TUG memberships to any independent timeshare/association/etc for them to post their inventory free of charge to help them offload or rent as applicable.
 
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