Converting CWA to deeded property

[spazkak]

Hello! I have a question regarding possibly converting my CWA points to a deeded property in Hawaii. My husband and I own 315,000 Club Wyndham Access points. We were in Hawaii last week and received an offer to purchase a deeded property in Hawaii. They are taking all our equity, everything that we paid into CWA and putting that towards owning a deeded property in Hawaii at Wyndham at Waikiki Beach Walk. This appealed to me for a few reasons. First with CWA, we literally own nothing, just "air," and the condo at Waikiki we will be deeded 25% of a condo in one of the most expensive places to own property in the US. Second, because we are in CWA our maintenance fees keep going up, and in a deeded property they will not raise as dramatically each year (or so they say). In Hawaii the HOA that manages the fees is a nonprofit. Third, I know timeshares do not have a resale value, but from what I am seeing, deeded property in Hawaii does have some value on the secondary market because there is no more land to build any more units. I feel this might give me an exit strategy if in 15 years, I no longer want to own a timeshare any longer. Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[Mongoose]

What are the costs and fees involved? What size unit and number of weeks does this get you?

 

[paxsarah]

First with CWA, we literally own nothing, just "air," and the condo at Waikiki we will be deeded 25% of a condo in one of the most expensive places to own property in the US.

There is no inherent benefit to owning a Club Wyndham deed for points versus Club Wyndham Access in a trust. It's not 25% of a condo - it's still just UDI points.

Second, because we are in CWA our maintenance fees keep going up, and in a deeded property they will not raise as dramatically each year (or so they say). In Hawaii the HOA that manages the fees is a nonprofit.

All maintenance fees keep going up - deeded or CWA. It is true that currently, CWA's maintenance fee rate per 1,000 points is higher than that of Waikiki Beachwalk. But that doesn't mean that it will increase at a faster rate than Waikiki Beachwalk.

Third, I know timeshares do not have a resale value, but from what I am seeing, deeded property in Hawaii does have some value on the secondary market because there is no more land to build any more units. I feel this might give me an exit strategy if in 15 years, I no longer want to own a timeshare any longer. Any advice would be appreciated!

Recent eBay sales of Waikiki Beachwalk are nothing to write home about. CWA sells for at least as much. The main reasons to choose between a particular deeded location or CWA is (1) maintenance fee rate, and (2) ARP booking priority between 10-13 months. You cannot predict future maintenance fee increases from past increases.

One additional difference I've also seen recently is that if an HOA goes under or is sold, owners with Wyndham points at that location may indeed receive some proceeds from the sale of that property, but in the process they lose their points (and any VIP level that those points helped them get to). In the example I saw in the last year or so (one of the HOAs at Villa Rica), owners in the HOA that's being sold will likely receive a few thousand dollars once the sale is complete, but that's far less than it would cost to replace those points with a new developer contract to get back to the VIP level they're losing. So I personally wouldn't consider future resale value or the tangibility of a deed in my calculations of what kind of developer purchase to make - I also wouldn't weigh it in my calculations as a drawback, because this sort of situation is very rare. On the other hand, it might actually be a plus in terms of a resale purchase - but again, not something I would weigh more highly than maintenance fee rate, given its rarity.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I feel this might give me an exit strategy if in 15 years, I no longer want to own a timeshare any longer. Any advice would be appreciated!

You will still own a timeshare, not 25% of a whole unit. How much are you paying for more timeshare? How many points are you buying? Have you looked at the number of points required to book 1/4 of a year at Waikiki Beach Walk?

Wyndham sales just continue to lie and deceive. Unbelievable.

If you fell for this, you need to rescind ASAP.

 

[dioxide45]

CWA is a trust and the maintenance fees are made up of all the maintenance fees of the deeded weeks in the CWA trust. If fees go up on the underlying deeds, then the CWA maintenance fee also increases. The fees on CWA are more "blended" and tend to be more stable than you might find at any one resort. If a resort needs a special assessment, the CWA fees won't get the same assessment, that special assessment will simply be billed to the deeded weeks in CWA and averaged across all the points in the CWA trust. A $500 per week special assessment at a single resort might work out to $0.02 per point in CWA.

 

[chapjim]

Another thing NOT to consider is the recommendation of a Wyndham salesperson. If you have CWA, you need deeded property and vice versa.

 

[bnoble]

They are taking all our equity, everything that we paid into CWA and putting that towards owning a deeded property in Hawaii at Wyndham at Waikiki Beach Walk.

That sounds nice, but like a car dealer, they can make that up by jacking up the "list price" of the thing you are buying. At the end of the day, you aren't going to be saving much of anything on the purchase price.

and the condo at Waikiki we will be deeded 25% of a condo in one of the most expensive places to own property in the US. Second, because we are in CWA our maintenance fees keep going up, and in a deeded property they will not raise as dramatically each year (or so they say). In Hawaii the HOA that manages the fees is a nonprofit.

If you are actually going to have 25% of a Beach Walk 1BR suite lower and all at the lowest point season, that's still something north of two million points. You aren't going from 315K to 2M, are you?

Also, your fees are going to go up no matter where you are, because they are based on the costs of running the resort. CWA is just the average of all of the costs at the weeks/resorts held in trust. At Waikiki Beach Walk, you will pay the increase in costs just at Beak Walk. Hawaii is definitely not less expensive than other places, and prices definitely do not rise more slowly there.

All of the HOAs are non-profit. That's a red herring. Maintenance fees are just the cost of running the resort, plus the management fee to the management company (usually, as is the case at Waikiki Beach Walk, Wyndham).

deeded property in Hawaii does have some value on the secondary market because there is no more land to build any more units.

Take a look at recently completed ebay auctions for points at this resort, and I think you will see that there is very little resale value. For example, this one. 717K points went for $1500 plus about $850 in closing fees, or about $3.20 per thousand points. That's a pretty typical price for Wyndham points on the resale market these days.

I don't care how much "credit" they are going to give you for your CWA points, but I guarantee you will pay more than $3.20/K for the points you buy--probably by a factor of 20x or more.

----------------
There is some value in having a deeded ownership at a lower-cost property rather than CWA. Because CWA is an average, some properties cost more, but some properties cost less. Waikiki Beach Walk is a little lower than CWA, but not a lot lower. It's in the 10-15% range. Definitely not worth paying real money for.

 

[tschwa2]

If you want to increase your points by 100,000-200,000 points to increase your vip level anyway, then making a direct purchase to a resort with a lower Mf per 1000 can make sense. If they are trying to get you to purchase a nominal package simply to convert, the math is unlikely to make sense, nor is it necessary.

 

[Mongoose]

There is no inherent benefit to owning a Club Wyndham deed for points versus Club Wyndham Access in a trust. It's not 25% of a condo - it's still just UDI points.

I would argue that there is a benefit in having a fixed week at a fixed location that you love and want to frequent.

 

[chapjim]

I would that there is a benefit in having a fixed week at a fixed location that you love and want to frequent.

In that case, it is not an inherent benefit. It is purely subjective.

 

[paxsarah]

I would argue that there is a benefit in having a fixed week at a fixed location that you love and want to frequent.

Which is exactly why I used the word “points” twice in the segment you quoted.

 

[Mongoose]

In that case, it is not an inherent benefit. It is purely subjective.

Most "benefits" from a timeshare purchase are subjective.

 

[Mongoose]

Which is exactly why I used the word “points” twice in the segment you quoted.

Ah, I missed that distinction.

 

[rickandcindy23]

So much valuable and honest input here for the OP. I hope this is all considered and not just ignored. The only person benefitting from this sale is the salesperson, and they don't have to be truthful in order to make a sale. Wyndham's sales' department would pat this salesperson on the back for any promises made in order to make a sale. It's so sleazy.

The OP hasn't come back, which is not at all surprising because we aren't agreeing with the salesperson.

There are better timeshares, if you want to buy something resale that actually can be sold for what you paid for it.

 

[e.bram]

Are you getting a fixed OCEANFRONT unit at a desirable week?

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Hello! I have a question regarding possibly converting my CWA points to a deeded property in Hawaii. My husband and I own 315,000 Club Wyndham Access points. We were in Hawaii last week and received an offer to purchase a deeded property in Hawaii. They are taking all our equity, everything that we paid into CWA and putting that towards owning a deeded property in Hawaii at Wyndham at Waikiki Beach Walk. This appealed to me for a few reasons. First with CWA, we literally own nothing, just "air," and the condo at Waikiki we will be deeded 25% of a condo in one of the most expensive places to own property in the US. Second, because we are in CWA our maintenance fees keep going up, and in a deeded property they will not raise as dramatically each year (or so they say). In Hawaii the HOA that manages the fees is a nonprofit. Third, I know timeshares do not have a resale value, but from what I am seeing, deeded property in Hawaii does have some value on the secondary market because there is no more land to build any more units. I feel this might give me an exit strategy if in 15 years, I no longer want to own a timeshare any longer. Any advice would be appreciated!

Don’t do this. If you really want a deeded property for lower maintenance fees, buy that deeded week on property, and sell your CWA points on ebay or give it away, or use Wyndham’s certified exit program for it. You will save yourself thousands (likely tens of thousands).

 

[northovr]

Last update I did they said they weren't doing trades anymore. I guess that rule went the window?

Daniel

 

[dioxide45]

Last update I did they said they weren't doing trades anymore. I guess that rule went the window?

Daniel

It was probably just some lie to angle for either a sale or to try to make your argument on why not to buy fall apart. In other words, it was never a rule that could go away.

 

[rickandcindy23]

OP is still absent from this conversation. Believe the salesperson or believe us, your choice. We told you this was a pack of lies and that you would still own a timeshare in the end. Timeshares can be had for 1-5 cents on the dollar. That is your future, not 25% of a condo on Oahu. No matter how many points you buy, you just own points and nothing "real" to sell.

 

[spazkak]

OP is still absent from this conversation. Believe the salesperson or believe us, your choice. We told you this was a pack of lies and that you would still own a timeshare in the end. Timeshares can be had for 1-5 cents on the dollar. That is your future, not 25% of a condo on Oahu. No matter how many points you buy, you just own points and nothing "real" to sell.

Wow! A big thank you to everyone who chimed in. My husband and I discussed it and agree, we are not going to go through with the purchase. Obviously, we were having doubts about it, hence the questions posted. They make it so shiny with a big bow, then you walk away and think, "what the heck did I just do!"

I truly appreciate all the feedback! Very valid points! Going back to the Reagan phrase from the 80's for the future... "just say no!"

 

[Richelle]

Last update I did they said they weren't doing trades anymore. I guess that rule went the window?

Daniel

It was a rule they made up. In otherwards, it never happened.

 

[nicemann]

I left a presentation this morning trying to get me to also take my CWA and convert it to something else. That the fees for CWA are the worst around and will increase the most. I tried to explain the blended fees but just basically kept being called stupid for not wanting to leave CWA. I am sure if I had a deeded contract it would have been the same story but reversed on how CWA is better.

One thing I was told I was not sure about, is only the properties that were in the trust when the contract was made is all I can reserve at. So since my contract was originally bought as developer by someone else 11 years ago, that is all the properties my CWA represents for early access, bookings, etc. That only rooms that are not rented at those locations are available to me. That is if they decide to post it on as available on our website instead of just renting them out to the public.

They also were told us we need to buy developer points so we can use the great Travel Up program. That is not worth the money either,

 

[northovr]

when a salesman mouth is moving there are lying. I called out on it and the presentation ends pretty quicky.
Daniel

 

[northovr]

when a salesman mouth is moving there are lying. I called them out on it and the presentation ends pretty quicky.
Daniel

 

[r4rab]

I left a presentation this morning trying to get me to also take my CWA and convert it to something else. That the fees for CWA are the worst around and will increase the most. I tried to explain the blended fees but just basically kept being called stupid for not wanting to leave CWA. I am sure if I had a deeded contract it would have been the same story but reversed on how CWA is better.

One thing I was told I was not sure about, is only the properties that were in the trust when the contract was made is all I can reserve at. So since my contract was originally bought as developer by someone else 11 years ago, that is all the properties my CWA represents for early access, bookings, etc. That only rooms that are not rented at those locations are available to me. That is if they decide to post it on as available on our website instead of just renting them out to the public.

They also were told us we need to buy developer points so we can use the great Travel Up program. That is not worth the money either,

Nope. You have ARP access to all the current CWA resorts/rooms. Note that the trust can (and does) move rooms into and out of the trust.