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Point Transfer Receiving Limit - Capped at 20,000 Points Annually [MERGED]

I understand the drip-drip warning. And as an owner who has dabbled in renting out high-demand points reservations I'll admit, I would like to see them similarly attack rentals by putting a limit on the number of reservations in an owner's account to which guest names can be added. Weeks or Points, I've always been in favor of them enforcing in one way or another the vague "no commercial activity" prohibition that's in all the docs.

These types of limits would be problematic, especially when rental is a legitimate use of a VOI. That's probably why Vistana took the "if you can't beat them, join them" approach and started charging $69 for adding a guest name (with some exceptions and discounts for 5-Star Elites).
 
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These types of limits would be problematic, especially when rental is a legitimate use of a VOI. That's probably why Vistana took the "if you can't beat them, join them" approach and started charging $69 for adding a guest name (with some exceptions for 5-Star Elites).
There are "commercial activity" restrictions in most if not all of the resort governing documents. So I could see where they could place some type of cap limit on weeks based reservations.
 
There are some opportunities for that, yes. Playing that game can get you over $1/point quite easily and even over $2 with some luck (booking at relatively low seasons, Sun-Fri) but it does involve advance planning, making a booking, paying listing fees, and taking the risk it doesn't rent when your points are not bankable. It kind of becomes a full-time job...

One example is HHI (Sunset Point, Harbour Pointe) in early December. You can get a 2BR for a full week for 400 points. Don't you think that's rentable for $700 ($100/night which would be $1.75/point)? The Sun-Fri stay would be 250 points so if you rent that for $500 that's $2/point, which is triple the $0.65-$0.70 one can get from renting points outright.
I am curious if one can make money renting high value weeks booked with points, since this is the problem they try to solve, at least this is what they claim in the email. Why would Marriott be bothered by off season rentals?
 
There are "commercial activity" restrictions in most if not all of the resort governing documents. So I could see where they could place some type of cap limit on weeks based reservations.

What is "commercial activity"? 2 weeks? 20 weeks? 200 weeks?

Some retirees may own 15+ weeks and decide to go to Australia for 3 months one year. So now they can't rent their weeks?
 
I like their approach, putting a cap on the number of points being transferred IN to accounts while at the same time, allowing for special-circumstance-waivers on an as-needed/by-request basis. This preserves the expressed rights in the governing docs that allows transfers as well as rentals, and doesn't penalize the owners of a gazillion points from continuing to rent OUT their points to multiple people. (Think of the Residence Club owners specifically who were encouraged to enroll their gazillion-points-generating shares by the stated promise to be able to rent them out.)

I understand the drip-drip warning. And as an owner who has dabbled in renting out high-demand points reservations I'll admit, I would like to see them similarly attack rentals by putting a limit on the number of reservations in an owner's account to which guest names can be added. Weeks or Points, I've always been in favor of them enforcing in one way or another the vague "no commercial activity" prohibition that's in all the docs.

Should be interesting going forward. :)

But the developer renting units for hundreds of millions of dollars a year is not a problem :ponder: .
 
Are there that many reservations that can be made where you would make a profit at $0.65 per point?
Only certain weeks, certain events, certain locations. F1 week in Las Vegas will probably bring 1k a night or more.
 
I am curious if one can make money renting high value weeks booked with points, since this is the problem they try to solve, at least this is what they claim in the email. Why would Marriott be bothered by off season rentals?

Maybe - probably depends on the location and also if there are certain events happening - like Superbowl 57 weekend in Glendale, AZ in February. The Westin Kierland weeks for that week were gone in minutes, and I don't think it's because all those timeshare owners are planning to attend the Superbowl with two teams that will be determined only 2 weeks in advance :)
 
But the developer renting units for hundreds of millions of dollars a year is not a problem :ponder: .
What is so difficult to understand about, "owners have different rights than developers/managers, and in most cases the rights granted to developers/managers are more generous." It's true in most every aspect related to timeshare ownership including rental rights.

It is what it is, and it's clear in the governing docs if you bother to read them. I can live with it or I can decide to offload my ownership, because it's for damned sure that I can't fight it and win.
 
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I'm happy with this as I view this is a good faith effort to make it possible for more widespread access to available points reservations. Also, if it works to open reservation availability for smaller points owners, I'm all for it.

Personal enjoyment use of resort reservations should be the priority.
 
I am curious if one can make money renting high value weeks booked with points, since this is the problem they try to solve, at least this is what they claim in the email. Why would Marriott be bothered by off season rentals?
Yes, there's money to be made, especially if you're using Exchange Points from enrolled/elected Weeks that have relatively lower MF's (compared to Trust Points MF's.)

To me this restriction seems to be more of an effort to prevent certain high-dealing individuals from making a cottage industry out of acting as broker - and making commissions - off of multiple owners. It's a natural stretch to think that it may evolve to impacting the rental activity of owners who only rent out the intervals they book with their owned Weeks/Points, but for now this is not that.
 
What is "commercial activity"? 2 weeks? 20 weeks? 200 weeks?

Some retirees may own 15+ weeks and decide to go to Australia for 3 months one year. So now they can't rent their weeks?
So far Marriott hasn't defined "commercial activity", but many do earn significant income from renting weeks that could be defined as such. The circumstances shouldn't really matter in the definition.
 
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What is so difficult to understand about, "owners have different rights than developers/managers, and in most cases the rights granted to developers/managers are more generous." It's true in most every aspect related to timeshare ownership including rental rights.

It is what it is, and it's clear in the governing docs if you bother to read them. I can live with it or I can decide to offload my ownership, because it's for damned sure that I can't fight it and win.
If you are talking about Vistana weeks, our rules are pretty clear:

14.4. Rentals. Members may rent their reserved Vacation Periods by signing a
Member rental agreement with the Property Association or a third party. Members will be
responsible for coordinating any third party rentals with the Property Association."


The restriction of the commercial activity can be interpreted in the sense that you can't open a massage parlor in a timeshare unit:

"14.3. Limits On Occupants, Commercial Use and Other Vacation Plans. The
number of people allowed in any Vacation Unit is limited to the maximum number listed in the
Declaration and Resort Rules. Members and other Occupants may only use a Vacation Unit to
provide vacation lodgings for themselves and their guests.
They may not use a Vacation Unit for
any commercial purpose.
Also, they may not transfer, rent or otherwise contribute their
Vacation Ownership Interest, use rights, Points, or Vacation Period to any other vacation
ownership or time share program (including any non-equity use plans) or to any external
exchange program other than External Exchange Programs having agreements with Founding
Member or the Property Association. This Section does not apply to and shall not limit the
Founding Member or the Property Association."


I do not find any other rules that would give the developer those special rights you mention frequently. Maybe are only specific to the resort you own.
 
If you are talking about Vistana weeks, our rules are pretty clear:

14.4. Rentals. Members may rent their reserved Vacation Periods by signing a
Member rental agreement with the Property Association or a third party. Members will be
responsible for coordinating any third party rentals with the Property Association."


The restriction of the commercial activity can be interpreted in the sense that you can't open a massage parlor in a timeshare unit:

"14.3. Limits On Occupants, Commercial Use and Other Vacation Plans. The
number of people allowed in any Vacation Unit is limited to the maximum number listed in the
Declaration and Resort Rules. Members and other Occupants may only use a Vacation Unit to
provide vacation lodgings for themselves and their guests.
They may not use a Vacation Unit for
any commercial purpose.
Also, they may not transfer, rent or otherwise contribute their
Vacation Ownership Interest, use rights, Points, or Vacation Period to any other vacation
ownership or time share program (including any non-equity use plans) or to any external
exchange program other than External Exchange Programs having agreements with Founding
Member or the Property Association. This Section does not apply to and shall not limit the
Founding Member or the Property Association."


I do not find any other rules that would give the developer those special rights you mention frequently. Maybe are only specific to the resort you own.
Here is what Marriott (Shadow Ridge) docs say:
1668578097932.png
 
If you are talking about Vistana weeks, our rules are pretty clear:

14.4. Rentals. Members may rent their reserved Vacation Periods by signing a
Member rental agreement with the Property Association or a third party. Members will be
responsible for coordinating any third party rentals with the Property Association."


The restriction of the commercial activity can be interpreted in the sense that you can't open a massage parlor in a timeshare unit:

"14.3. Limits On Occupants, Commercial Use and Other Vacation Plans. The
number of people allowed in any Vacation Unit is limited to the maximum number listed in the
Declaration and Resort Rules. Members and other Occupants may only use a Vacation Unit to
provide vacation lodgings for themselves and their guests.
They may not use a Vacation Unit for
any commercial purpose.
Also, they may not transfer, rent or otherwise contribute their
Vacation Ownership Interest, use rights, Points, or Vacation Period to any other vacation
ownership or time share program (including any non-equity use plans) or to any external
exchange program other than External Exchange Programs having agreements with Founding
Member or the Property Association. This Section does not apply to and shall not limit the
Founding Member or the Property Association."


I do not find any other rules that would give the developer those special rights you mention frequently. Maybe are only specific to the resort you own.
I haven't seen the Vistana docs but every one I've ever seen for any company has included language talking about personal use, usually with a preclusion on commercial renting. In this situation the current discussion would apply to those Vistana and Westin members as well to the extent they participated in the Club portion.
 
Here is what Marriott (Shadow Ridge) docs say:
View attachment 68625
Most resort docs specifically mention rental (to a tourist) as a permitted activity.

"no Owner [...] shall use any Timeshare Unit or the Common Area for any commercial purpose." To me it appears they prevent opening a shop in the unit or by the pool rather than that you are not allowed to rent out to a regular tourist.
 
Yes, there's money to be made, especially if you're using Exchange Points from enrolled/elected Weeks that have relatively lower MF's (compared to Trust Points MF's.)

It does not matter the cost for the owners who rent out the points. Those that acquire them still pay 60-75 cents per point and it is very hard to make a profit at that level. Marriott does not offer any statistic to back their claim.

I still believe that if a lot of points are indeed transacted with the end goal of renting out point reservations, the price of renting points should go down.
 
If Marriott goes the way others (e.g. Wyndham) have, our individual definitions of "commercial" won't really matter. The only definition that will matter will be Marriott's. It's fun to imagine what a court might say is/is not "commercial", but it would be expensive to actually find out.
 
Only certain weeks, certain events, certain locations. F1 week in Las Vegas will probably bring 1k a night or more.
THese types of events are one off things (well two), but you get what I mean. It isn't every year we see F1 or the Superbowl in a location with timeshares. I would think there has to be other regular situations where it makes sense to rent and flip point bookings like this. Seems like a lot of work for little gain and a lot of risk.
 
If Marriott goes the way others (e.g. Wyndham) have, our individual definitions of "commercial" won't really matter. The only definition that will matter will be Marriott's. It's fun to imagine what a court might say is/is not "commercial", but it would be expensive to actually find out.

I do not subscribe to the idea that the developers can do whatever they want. Yes, they have the larger purse, but they also have fiduciary responsibilities and there is a line beyond which they can potentially lose a lot more than they gain by interpreting too many rules in their favor.
 
I do not subscribe to the idea that the developers can do whatever they want. Yes, they have the larger purse, but they also have fiduciary responsibilities and there is a line beyond which they can potentially lose a lot more than they gain by interpreting too many rules in their favor.
I don't beleive developers are fiduciaries. They have no obligations to us except to sell us a product/service that we voluntarily agree to purchase. THe HOA on the other hand does, but not the developing company.
 
THese types of events are one off things (well two), but you get what I mean. It isn't every year we see F1 or the Superbowl in a location with timeshares. I would think there has to be other regular situations where it makes sense to rent and flip point bookings like this. Seems like a lot of work for little gain and a lot of risk.
The gain may be PR. Blame inventory issues on commercial rentals, show you are doing something. They do not even need to recode the system.
 
I don't beleive developers are fiduciaries. They have no obligations to us except to sell us a product/service that we voluntarily agree to purchase. THe HOA on the other hand does, but not the developing company.
"Both directors and officers owe a fiduciary duty to all owners which requires them to act in the best interest of the owners." You are in a better position to interpret this article, what do you think? Remember, the developer has multiple roles because it is a property manager, it also manages the point trusts, and it also manages the reservation system. They may have individual licenses for each category.

 
There are some opportunities for that, yes. Playing that game can get you over $1/point quite easily and even over $2 with some luck (booking at relatively low seasons, Sun-Fri) but it does involve advance planning, making a booking, paying listing fees, and taking the risk it doesn't rent when your points are not bankable. It kind of becomes a full-time job...

One example is HHI (Sunset Point, Harbour Pointe) in early December. You can get a 2BR for a full week for 400 points. Don't you think that's rentable for $700 ($100/night which would be $1.75/point)? The Sun-Fri stay would be 250 points so if you rent that for $500 that's $2/point, which is triple the $0.65-$0.70 one can get from renting points outright.

Yep. Even some popular resorts during prime weeks have big bargains Sunday - Friday. I see these rentals listed all the time on Redweek.
 
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