VSN Features/Benefits Reduction and Elimination Post Abound Launch [Call to Action]

[DanCali]

On Redweek, North OF asking price is ranging from $29K to $32K with some outliers at $35K, $42K and $45K. There is also an OV outlier at $35K. The pricing is irrational.

WKORV OF view is probably more desired (and there are fewer OF units) than the WKORVN OF view.

Of course if you are just buying for the Abound points (whether you are MVC or an owner who wants to retro) then pick the cheaper OF view.

 

[pchung6]

I’m here and overheard others mention ocean front resale was priced at $70k, so can only assume that’s what they were offered by the sales team at the resort. Of course, I said “too expensive!”


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That’s really too high. With economic slowdown, we should be able to see price moves down soon.

 

[TravelTime]

WKORV OF view is probably more desired (and there are fewer OF units) than the WKORVN OF view.

Of course if you are just buying for the Abound points (whether you are MVC or an owner who wants to retro) then pick the cheaper OF view.

For Abound points, both S and N are valued at the same rate. A bit surprising to me.

There are more resales available in S. Another surprising thing. I see the range of starting prices to be a little higher but not dramatically different for S vs N. It is really just a preference for the buyer.

Overall, other that the angled view for OF in S, N is a better one to purchase. There are more OF units and there are no parking lot views like in S. When I purchased, I was thinking of S, but Syed said to buy N.

 

[CPNY]

My thoughts:

• No more exclusive rights to book during the home reservation period. What was the legal foundation for this change?

• VSN has become a second-class exchange network. Vistana sold VOIs based on the StarOptions chart and VSN was a pivotal point in the decision to purchase. Important features will be removed (like 2 years banking) and now Abound (an Exchange like VSN) will have 4 months of priority ahead of VSN.

• The fragmentation of inventory. Already too many buckets in Vistana (resort owners, flex owners, VSN, both resale and retail, units controlled by Vistana/Marriott). Placing Abound at the same level with the resort owners (12 months reservation period) will have a huge impact on VSN, especially for the weeks and resorts that are already hard to book. This will also likely lead to IT issues due to the increased complexity. There is also a (total) lack of transparency about how the different buckets are prioritized and the mechanisms in place to insure a fair distribution. Marriott has a potential conflict of interest because the rental revenue generated by the units it controls and because their energy will be focused on selling Abound and not the other buckets. The rules are intentionally vague (like in its own discretion, anticipated demand etc.), they do not offer real protection to the owners. Some of these are not new but the creation of Abound will take it to a whole new level, including giving other owners access during the home resort reservation period.

This comment above summarizes it well: “For folks thinking VSN will always exist and Abound is just a layer… you’re probably right technically speaking. But practically, the insider is right. Gresham’s law - Bad money drives out good money. I own multiple weeks in Hawaii. I would never, ever, use these weeks in VSN again. Why? Because I can get two to three times the trading power of SOs by using Abound Club Points. The program will effectively remove the most valuable units from the network, dismantling it piece by piece until all that remains is a husk for legal reasons. If tug is helping folks maximize their value, the recommendation to owners of any high value week becomes…. Use Abound to maximize what you can get for it. Beats SOs and then some. If there isn’t Abound inventory for those lower valued VSN properties, well, good thing there’s tons of other options in Abound.”

• Banked StarOptions will expire after 12 months (18 months for Presidential; 24 months for Chairman). This is a huge loss for those who do not own a gazillion points. Currently it's 24 months for all. (Impacts all except 5-Star Elite / Chairman, and resale voluntary)
• Banking StarOptions deadlines will be 31-61 days earlier for most Elite owners (Oct 31 for Chairman and Aug 31 for Executive or Presidential). Currently it's December 31 for 5-Star and Oct 1 for 3-Star and 4-Star. (Impacts mostly VSN Elite Owners)
• No more early check-in and late checkout. Currently it's a benefit for 5-Star Elite (Impacts 5-Star Elite Owners)
• No more concierge services
• The mandatory VOIs have the potential to have a lower resale value due to the changes. Any owner who buys mandatory resale after 8/9 will only have access to a seriously weakened VSN.
• What was the process to make sure the current Vistana owners’ rights would be protected with the creation of Abound? Who represented the Vistana owners to scrutinize the potential changes? The launching documents were signed by a Marriott executive who represented both sides (Vistana and Marriott).
• Deterioration of services since Marriott took over (call center, IT etc),
• The increase in MF well above the trendline even after taking into account inflation (personal experience, not sure if true for all the Vistana resorts)

When you read all of the things that Marriott took away from vistana elite owners to make the program more in line with Marriott DC club, you can see why the VSN was a better program with better perks for elite owners.

 

[TravelTime]

When you read all of the things that Marriott took away from vistana elite owners to make the program more in line with Marriott DC club, you can see why the VSN was a better program with better perks for elite owners.

As a Vistana owner, I am not sure what they took away that was truly valuable other than reducing banking for the lower level members in the new benefits level. But you also need to Vistana owners who value Abound will gain with Abound.

 

[CPNY]

I wouldn’t be surprised if for the first few years many Vistana owners exchange for Abound to test the new system, especially those who don’t know or participate here (i.e the majority of owners).


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I have a cousin who doesn’t know much of how this works say to me they will take their gold plus HRA one bedroom and try to get Marriott surf club when the new program launches. I laughed, then told her even when HRA is included don’t think you’ll be getting enough points for MSU with your gold plus HRA in the new program. You’ll be lucky to get a studio for 4 nights. If you blindly elect for points you’ll be upset when you’re stuck with a studio in orlando. Then i told her to go through interval she’ll be better off. The point here is that most owners who don’t own much in terms of “value” will elect for club points only to be left very disappointed when they can’t book much. There will be plenty of “one and done” owners.

There are also so many owners on the vistana side who are naive to interval and how that exchange system works. They checked for an exchange once 10 years ago and think Interval is crap and never bothered with it again.

 

[CPNY]

As a Vistana owner, I am not sure what they took away that was truly valuable other than reducing banking for the lower level members in the new benefits level. But you also need to Vistana owners who value Abound will gain with Abound.

They took a lot away from the elite vistana owners. It’s all listed in the post I quoted.

Non elite Vistana owners who will obtain new levels in abound will gain, I’m hoping I’m one of them. But it clear that vistana elite owners had a few really nice perks stripped away from them. Especially if those elite owners don’t exchange in abound and want to use their ownerships at their home resort only or within the VSN.

 

[CPNY]

I think the fear of Marriott people booking into Vistana inventory is overblown. In fact, Marriott people are more worried about Vistana people taking Marriott’s much better inventory from them. Also Abound only gets inventory from Vistana if a Vistana owner elects points. That means the Vistana owner values getting Abound points more than using their home weeks or SOs. It is a free market so let Vistana owners elect Abound points if they want. Anyone who wants what they already have in Vistana will still have it. Vistana owners who want Vistana resorts only will still play by themselves in the Vistana pool.

I don’t think it’s overblown. I think it’s a valid concern especially when you look at the fine print where it says that Marriott controls the inventory and will fund the abound program with inventory at its discretion to “anticipate” demand. unsold Vistana inventory that marriott owns currently goes into the VSN. Going forward all of that inventory can go into abound which means it is no longer available into the VSN. Unless I am way off on that.

 

[TravelTime]

They took a lot away from the elite vistana owners. It’s all listed in the post I quoted.

Non elite Vistana owners who will obtain new levels in abound will gain, I’m hoping I’m one of them. But it clear that vistana elite owners had a few really nice perks stripped away from them. Especially if those elite owners don’t exchange in abound and want to use their ownerships at their home resort only or within the VSN.

I missed your post of what they took away. I thought it was banking and some elite benefits that I do not think I would have cared about even if I was elite. MVC owners have been saying for years that Marriott needs to enhance Chairman’s club level so maybe they will add more benefits to it. The rumors have always been that they will be enhancing it.

Some of the things @timsi listed either did not happen and are unlikely to happen unless Vistana owners like Abound better. Some other things he listed are Vistana issues and might have happened even if Marriott had not purchased Vistana.

If Vistana owners prefer Abound and elect points, then you need to blame Vistana owners if VSN deteriorates. If Marriott offers more through Abound, then that is the only reason Vistana owners would elect Abound points and VSN would get would get worse.

I stopped using SOs because I lost SOs and it was hard to book what I wanted at 8 months. I would have to keep checking and I might get something or I might not. Usually if I found something with at least 7 days at 8 months, the dates could be wrong. Forget trying to get more than 7 days at 8 months with SOs. So I decided to only use my home resort or rent it out when I could not use it. Then I do not lose. But the bad part is I purchased partly for SOs and and it turned out to be a disappointment. I felt like it was bait and switch by Vistana.

My understanding is the Vistana owners who want to use their home resort will still get priority. I do not hear Marriott owners complaining they can‘t get their home resort. This was a few 12 years ago and from what Marriott weeks owners seem to say is their fear did not come true.

Neither program is perfect but Vistana owners will gravitate to whichever program they like better. That is a huge choice that MVC owners do not have. There were no real benefits added for MVC.

 

[timsi]

I don’t think it’s overblown. I think it’s a valid concern especially when you look at the fine print where it says that Marriott controls the inventory and will fun the abound program with inventory at its discretion to “anticipate” demand. unsold Vistana inventory that marriott owns currently goes into the VSN. Going forward all of that inventory can go into abound which means it is no longer available into the VSN. Unless I am way off on that.

Not only it is not overblown, there are tangible things that have been taken away.

In average, one in 30 Marriott owners is delinquent. Many owners have 1 week if not half (isn't the average 1 week?) and many pay 12 or 15 % interest for their little VOI. The last thing some owners need is to be screwed with the ownership more than they already are. I do not think that those who will benefit from it can speak for those that are at a loss since they are not the ones that will make them whole.

 

[cubigbird]

For us at 5* elite the change of the banking deadline of Dec 31 to Oct 31 is a big deal. We have fixed holiday weeks that we use, and bring friends and family with. If someone cancels we have been able to bank the unused portion, and that’s been incredibly valuable. Now we won’t be able to do that. If a friend or family cancels on us past Oct 31, we now lose. Doing the math, I’m pay a net more for less as those VSN fees that are supposedly going away we generally haven’t had to pay them.

 

[dioxide45]

For us at 5* elite the change of the banking deadline of Dec 31 to Oct 31 is a big deal. We have fixed holiday weeks that we use, and bring friends and family with. If someone cancels we have been able to bank the unused portion, d asp it’s been incredibly valuable. Now we won’t be able to do that. If a friend or family cancels on us past Oct 31, we now lose.

But you would have had to cancel outside of 60 days anyway in order to get bankable points back, no? Can you bank restricted StarOptions?

 

[JIMinNC]

I don’t think it’s overblown. I think it’s a valid concern especially when you look at the fine print where it says that Marriott controls the inventory and will fun the abound program with inventory at its discretion to “anticipate” demand. unsold Vistana inventory that

I think what MVC owners are saying though, is that same language has been in the fine print for the last 12 years. MVC had/has the same incentives to play loose with inventory from the legacy MVC weeks system as they supposedly do with the legacy VSN system, but they seem to prioritize demand balancing since both the DC points system and the legacy weeks system both have happy owners/users. It's true that adding Abound will add one more bucket for the inventory managers to allocate VSN inventory to, but that's OK if they allocate based on demand. I know VSN owners are getting tired of hearing MVC owners compare this transition to the DC transition in 2010, but there are parallels.

Sales will continue to feed the fear that VSN will evaporate in their push to make the new sale, just as they have been saying for 12 years that the MVC weeks system is dead. But we can still book our prime time whale season weeks at Maui Ocean Club and Waiohai, and while we don't use II ourselves any more, many TUGgers do, so the legacy MVC weeks system is still alive and well. In fact, 40% of MVC owners still don't use the points system.

Not only it is not overblown, there are tangible things that have been taken away.

In average, one in 30 Marriott owners is delinquent. Many owners have 1 week if not half (isn't the average 1 week?) and many pay 12 or 15 % interest for their little VOI. The last thing some owners need is to be screwed with the ownership more than they already are. I do not think that those who will benefit from it can speak for those that are at a loss since they are not the ones that will make them whole.

I don't think the loss of some benefits, particularly for the VSN Elite members, is overblown. For those owners that value the benefits they have used that are going away, the loss is certainly real. Where I think there is unwarranted concern, however, is the fear that Marriott will play fast and loose with inventory management. If they were inclined to do that, I think we would have seen more degradation in the legacy MVC weeks system over the years. While some will point out some changes in weeks availability around the margins, by and large, the MVC weeks system still works.

 

[CPNY]

If Vistana owners prefer Abound and elect points, then you need to blame Vistana owners if VSN deteriorates. If Marriott offers more through Abound, then that is the only reason Vistana owners would elect Abound points and VSN would get would get worse.

This is the question. So let’s say only 100 Vistana villages owners elect their summer weeks to abound club points in the programs first year. Does that mean that there will only be 100 vistana villages summer weeks available in abound or will Marriott take 20 varied weeks from 5 resorts? When it comes to flex options, what’s going to stop Marriott from putting the best weeks into abound?

The concern isn’t that there will be nothing available in the VSN the real concern is Marriott not being equitable with inventory options. To be clear, I am not claiming that Marriott won’t be I’m just saying it’s a concern that many have, including myself. Can I see Marriott putting the best inventory in abound? Yes. Truthfully, our concerns are extremely valid since we have been told there would be no good inventory in the VSN going forward by Marriott employees themselves.

 

[VacationForever]

This is the question. So let’s say only 100 Vistana villages owners elect their summer weeks to abound club points in the programs first year. Does that mean that there will only be 100 vistana villages summer weeks available in abound or will Marriott take 20 varied weeks from 5 resorts? When it comes to flex options, what’s going to stop Marriott from putting the best weeks into abound?

The concern isn’t that there will be nothing available in the VSN the real concern is Marriott not being equitable with inventory options. To be clear, I am not claiming that Marriott won’t be I’m just saying it’s a concern that many have, including myself. Can I see Marriott putting the best inventory in abound? Yes. Truthfully, our concerns are extremely valid since we have been told there would be no good inventory in the VSN going forward by Marriott employees themselves.

You don't elect specific weeks. You simply elect your week. Abound will take equal/varied weeks.

 

[timsi]

This is the question. So let’s say only 100 Vistana villages owners elect their summer weeks to abound club points in the programs first year. Does that mean that there will only be 100 vistana villages summer weeks available in abound or will Marriott take 20 varied weeks from 5 resorts? When it comes to flex options, what’s going to stop Marriott from putting the best weeks into abound?

The concern isn’t that there will be nothing available in the VSN the real concern is Marriott not being equitable with inventory options.

It is not the Vistana owners who deposit in Abound that will drive the VSN to the ground but those that designed Abound giving it competitive advantage where it matters. It is deliberate and mean to those that bought the system assuming the system will work as they were told it would work based on a SO chart that was shown to them.

 

[dioxide45]

This is the question. So let’s say only 100 Vistana villages owners elect their summer weeks to abound club points in the programs first year. Does that mean that there will only be 100 vistana villages summer weeks available in abound or will Marriott take 20 varied weeks from 5 resorts? When it comes to flex options, what’s going to stop Marriott from putting the best weeks into abound?

The concern isn’t that there will be nothing available in the VSN the real concern is Marriott not being equitable with inventory options. To be clear, I am not claiming that Marriott won’t be I’m just saying it’s a concern that many have, including myself. Can I see Marriott putting the best inventory in abound? Yes. Truthfully, our concerns are extremely valid since we have been told there would be no good inventory in the VSN going forward by Marriott employees themselves.

That is a good question in regard to how they will manage inventory when a Flex owner elects Abound Club Points from their VOI or a portion of their VOI (they can elect in 20K increments). I guess the question is, what are good weeks. A good week for one person is too expensive to book for another one. Sure they could take all the Sheraton Kauai or Steamboat Ski weeks, but those also require a lot of points to book and they may go unused in Abound because of the number of points needed. I suspect the inventory management system is rather complex to make sure they take only what they are able to fulfill. People still like to go to Vistana Villages

 

[timsi]

I think what MVC owners are saying though, is that same language has been in the fine print for the last 12 years. MVC had/has the same incentives to play loose with inventory from the legacy MVC weeks system as they supposedly do with the legacy VSN system, but they seem to prioritize demand balancing since both the DC points system and the legacy weeks system both have happy owners/users. It's true that adding Abound will add one more bucket for the inventory managers to allocate VSN inventory to, but that's OK if they allocate based on demand. I know VSN owners are getting tired of hearing MVC owners compare this transition to the DC transition in 2010, but there are parallels.

Sales will continue to feed the fear that VSN will evaporate in their push to make the new sale, just as they have been saying for 12 years that the MVC weeks system is dead. But we can still book our prime time whale season weeks at Maui Ocean Club and Waiohai, and while we don't use II ourselves any more, many TUGgers do, so the legacy MVC weeks system is still alive and well. In fact, 40% of MVC owners still don't use the points system.



I don't think the loss of some benefits, particularly for the VSN Elite members, is overblown. For those owners that value the benefits they have used that are going away, the loss is certainly real. Where I think there is unwarranted concern, however, is the fear that Marriott will play fast and loose with inventory management. If they were inclined to do that, I think we would have seen more degradation in the legacy MVC weeks system over the years. While some will point out some changes in weeks availability around the margins, by and large, the MVC weeks system still works.

There are so many things that have changed and VSN 2022 is not legacy weeks 2010, how many times can the Vistana owners repeat that? VSN is an internal exchange, already complicated with the different flex ownerships plus mandatory, voluntary VOIS. VSN is put at a competitive disadvantage vs Abound. It is done on purpose and one does not have to wait a year or two to confirm malicious intent because it is in plain site already.

 

[dioxide45]

There are so many things that have changed and VSN 2022 is not legacy weeks 2010, how many times can the Vistana owners repeat that?

The bulk of Vistana ownerships is still sitting in legacy weeks.

 

[vacationtime1]

There are so many things that have changed and VSN 2022 is not legacy weeks 2010, how many times can the Vistana owners repeat that?

Well, you seem to repeat this dozens of times.

 

[timsi]

The bulk of Vistana ownerships is still sitting in legacy weeks.

Even if true and I would like to see the source, those weeks already trade in VSN in addition to their home resort.

 

[pchung6]

The bulk of Vistana ownerships is still sitting in legacy weeks.

A lot Vistana owners just recently bought flex based on the Staroptions chart and values. Now I see Marriott is stupid enough to deteriorate VSN just in few years. A lot Vistana people just paid big bucks now the value is cut by so much in Abound and Marriott is stripping away VSN benefits slowly and yearly. I’m very concerned about VAC stock now with long and deep upcoming recession.

 

[timsi]

Well, you seem to repeat this dozens of times.

I may have said it 3 or four times but for sure I have seen 2010 mentioned dozens of times.

 

[JIMinNC]

I may have said it 3 or four times but for sure I have seen 2010 mentioned dozens of times.

I think why we keep bringing it up is because we see parallels between 2010 and 2022 that are valid, and we are trying to allay some of the concerns we read from VSN owners who are uncomfortable with what is happening. We can't stop you from being worried, but we can provide info that we see as comparable/relevant. And this is coming not from just MVC owners like me, but from others who own in both systems and are knowledgeable about both.

Yes, VSN is a different system with more options/flexibility than the legacy MVC weeks system was in 2010, but when you boil it down, Abound just represents a new bucket of inventory that the program manager will need to allocate inventory to. So, as it relates to inventory management, I don't see why Marriott would have more incentive to unfairly siphon inventory from VSN than they have for the last 12 years with MVC weeks. I don't understand why you think they would treat VSN differently. Can you help me understand what you think they would unfairly siphon inventory from VSN versus what they have done MVC weeks? Forget what Sales says - they will say VSN is going to die just like they have been predicting the demise of MVC weeks since 2010.

 

[Ken555]

I stopped using SOs because I lost SOs and it was hard to book what I wanted at 8 months. I would have to keep checking and I might get something or I might not. Usually if I found something with at least 7 days at 8 months, the dates could be wrong. Forget trying to get more than 7 days at 8 months with SOs. So I decided to only use my home resort or rent it out when I could not use it. Then I do not lose. But the bad part is I purchased partly for SOs and and it turned out to be a disappointment. I felt like it was bait and switch by Vistana.

I have one 11-night stay at Harborside via SOs for this year, and have had other 7+ night stays at WKORV and other resorts. StarOptions worked great for me for 15 years, and I haven't yet lost all hope that it won't work in the future. I see no reason to pay more money to get the same results I've had for 15 years - that's the real disappointment for me.