[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

[am1]

I said multiple times that platinum could work for a high use owner or a group. But With not allowing resale points to get benefits the math does not work for anyone other then maybe a small purchase to get from gold to platinum.

 

[bnoble]

to your point, “when Wyndham had a bad rental problem”: why are the still fighting this “problem” if the problem is in the past

I've been thinking about this.

I don't think the goal needs to be "eliminate the renting problem." Instead, I suspect there are two main goals. First: add enough friction that it is not easy to drastically undercut Wyndham's rental pricing for prime season times at high-profile resorts. Second: have a few policies to point to when an owner complains that they can't book something but the same thing is available for rental.

The first goal is almost certainly a moving target. Eliminating cancel-rebook put a sizeable dent in some of the larger operations. Some still exist, but they have significantly higher pricing. More importantly, it reset the expectations in some corners of the world of what a "reasonable" price should be. For example, in the days of cancel-rebook, the Disneyana crowd assumed they'd always be able to get a 2BR at Bonnet Creek any time of year for fire sale prices---and, for the most part, they were correct. After the inventory management process changed, that expectation was adjusted, and no longer exists. It took a little while, and there are still some people who think the old days exist, but mostly folks have caught up.

That additional friction didn't completely eliminate renting. There are some high-profile resorts/weeks that are profitable even at full freight---some (but not all) of those are now on the verboten list. A few folks pivoted to focus more on short-term bookings/rentals; rather than book in advance and rebook inside 60 days, just wait until 60 days and scour looking for things others cancel at high-demand resorts. That's more work, and may not be quite as lucrative, but given most of the rest of the world doesn't plan vacations a year in advance, still works pretty well--especially if you can leverage your acquisition costs by building a Platinum account and then bulking up with cheap, low-fee resale points. The partitioning of resale/retail adds more friction to that process, by instantly ratcheting up everyone's cost basis.

People are clever, and money can be a big motivator, so some folks will find another way to make the juice worth the squeeze even in the new world. But, it will be harder to do and with fewer opportunities.

The second goal is more about simple optics, and I think the verboten list is probably enough for that. I'm not sure how important the second goal even is to club management; maybe not all that much.

 

[Eric B]

I've been thinking about this.

I don't think the goal needs to be "eliminate the renting problem." Instead, I suspect there are two main goals. First: add enough friction that it is not easy to drastically undercut Wyndham's rental pricing for prime season times at high-profile resorts. Second: have a few policies to point to when an owner complains that they can't book something but the same thing is available for rental.

The first goal is almost certainly a moving target. Eliminating cancel-rebook put a sizeable dent in some of the larger operations. Some still exist, but they have significantly higher pricing. More importantly, it reset the expectations in some corners of the world of what a "reasonable" price should be. For example, in the days of cancel-rebook, the Disneyana crowd assumed they'd always be able to get a 2BR at Bonnet Creek any time of year for fire sale prices---and, for the most part, they were correct. After the inventory management process changed, that expectation was adjusted, and no longer exists. It took a little while, and there are still some people who think the old days exist, but mostly folks have caught up.

That additional friction didn't completely eliminate renting. There are some high-profile resorts/weeks that are profitable even at full freight---some (but not all) of those are now on the verboten list. A few folks pivoted to focus more on short-term bookings/rentals; rather than book in advance and rebook inside 60 days, just wait until 60 days and scour looking for things others cancel at high-demand resorts. That's more work, and may not be quite as lucrative, but given most of the rest of the world doesn't plan vacations a year in advance, still works pretty well--especially if you can leverage your acquisition costs by building a Platinum account and then bulking up with cheap, low-fee resale points. The partitioning of resale/retail adds more friction to that process, by instantly ratcheting up everyone's cost basis.

People are clever, and money can be a big motivator, so some folks will find another way to make the juice worth the squeeze even in the new world. But, it will be harder to do and with fewer opportunities.

The second goal is more about simple optics, and I think the verboten list is probably enough for that. I'm not sure how important the second goal even is to club management; maybe not all that much.

Good thoughtful analysis. I would add as a third goal shifting the marketing expenditures from the VIP discounts/upgrades that had formerly supported a lot of the former rental activities to whatever the new Travel + Leisure subscription program becomes.

 

[troy12n]

Which they won't be able to do anymore with VIP discounts within the 60 day window... too bad, so sad. Unless they buy millions of points at full retail cost.

 

[CO skier]

... especially if you can leverage your acquisition costs by building a Platinum account and then bulking up with cheap, low-fee resale points.

You mean like a VIP Platinum/Founders account with an additional 64 million-ish resale points like the Klebba's, who obviously would never use even a reasonable fraction for their own personal vacations?

Similar to the points managers who went out of business in 2017 with the elimination of cancel/rebook/upgrade, these will be the type of megarenters most affected by the August change to VIP benefits due to the loss of the VIP discount (and any potential instant upgrades) on resale points and unlimited free housekeeping associated with those resale points reservations.

(Profitability) "Friction" is a good way to convey the effects on megarenter businesses in 2017 and 2021, but it is an understatement; in some cases, such as the multi-million points+ owners offloading through Ebay, more like a hitting a brick wall at full speed instead of tapping the brakes (friction).

 

[CO skier]

and to your point, “when Wyndham had a bad rental problem”: why are the still fighting this “problem” if the problem is in the past

Anyone can post anything (you obviously know this, and have).

Please cite anything from Wyndham that would indicate Wyndham thinks the megarenter "problem is in the past."

 

[raygo123]

Anyone can post anything (you obviously know this, and have).

Please cite anything from Wyndham that would indicate Wyndham thinks the megarenter "problem is in the past."

That was a comment from my post. I suggest a re read of ALL the posts.

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[raygo123]

Anyone can post anything (you obviously know this, and have).

Please cite anything from Wyndham that would indicate Wyndham thinks the megarenter "problem is in the past."

It is now in the past. As long as Travel and leisure enforces the rules, and has the ability to enforce the rules it is behind them. Wyndham can't stop rentals. Wyndham can't define commercial. Wyndham can now enforce many more rules on the cheap. If your going to rent it's going to be by the rules. Or at least the ones that can be enforced. That's it. As far as Wyndham is concerned, case Closed. The IT department can handle it from here. At least club membership still transfers when sold for just $299.



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[ronparise]

Anyone can post anything (you obviously know this, and have).

Please cite anything from Wyndham that would indicate Wyndham thinks the megarenter "problem is in the past."

I dont understand your comment, I have no idea what wyndham thinks or did think about their "rental problem" What I read here has convinced me that Wyndham is acting as if they have a rental problem

My comment was in response to this post:

All if you are now a footnote. When Wyndham used to have a bad rental problem.

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Raygo seems to think Wyndham used to have a rental problem, and my question was to him, So why dont you ask him to post something to back up his position. Understand I dont agree with Raygo here, I agree with you

 

[ronparise]

I've been thinking about this.

I don't think the goal needs to be "eliminate the renting problem." Instead, I suspect there are two main goals. First: add enough friction that it is not easy to drastically undercut Wyndham's rental pricing for prime season times at high-profile resorts. Second: have a few policies to point to when an owner complains that they can't book something but the same thing is available for rental.

This is what Ive been trying to say, You say it clearly and concisely

Wyndham has not tried to eliminate rentals, They want to control renting for the reasons you outline

 

[dgalati]

I've been thinking about this.

I don't think the goal needs to be "eliminate the renting problem." Instead, I suspect there are two main goals. First: add enough friction that it is not easy to drastically undercut Wyndham's rental pricing for prime season times at high-profile resorts. Second: have a few policies to point to when an owner complains that they can't book something but the same thing is available for rental.

The first goal is almost certainly a moving target. Eliminating cancel-rebook put a sizeable dent in some of the larger operations. Some still exist, but they have significantly higher pricing. More importantly, it reset the expectations in some corners of the world of what a "reasonable" price should be. For example, in the days of cancel-rebook, the Disneyana crowd assumed they'd always be able to get a 2BR at Bonnet Creek any time of year for fire sale prices---and, for the most part, they were correct. After the inventory management process changed, that expectation was adjusted, and no longer exists. It took a little while, and there are still some people who think the old days exist, but mostly folks have caught up.

That additional friction didn't completely eliminate renting. There are some high-profile resorts/weeks that are profitable even at full freight---some (but not all) of those are now on the verboten list. A few folks pivoted to focus more on short-term bookings/rentals; rather than book in advance and rebook inside 60 days, just wait until 60 days and scour looking for things others cancel at high-demand resorts. That's more work, and may not be quite as lucrative, but given most of the rest of the world doesn't plan vacations a year in advance, still works pretty well--especially if you can leverage your acquisition costs by building a Platinum account and then bulking up with cheap, low-fee resale points. The partitioning of resale/retail adds more friction to that process, by instantly ratcheting up everyone's cost basis.

People are clever, and money can be a big motivator, so some folks will find another way to make the juice worth the squeeze even in the new world. But, it will be harder to do and with fewer opportunities.

The second goal is more about simple optics, and I think the verboten list is probably enough for that. I'm not sure how important the second goal even is to club management; maybe not all that much.

Friction - Wikipedia
conflict or animosity caused by a clash of wills, temperaments, or opinions.
"a considerable amount of friction between a few Wyndham TUG posters"

 

[55plus]

Friction - Wikipedia
conflict or animosity caused by a clash of wills, temperaments, or opinions.
"a considerable amount of friction between a few Wyndham TUG posters"

The issue is the words being used in the posts. In case you haven't heard, the bird is the word:

 

[dgalati]

The issue is the words being used in the posts. In case you haven't heard, the bird is the word:

You sure its not grease? I think @ronparise was playing the cow bell in this song and @COSkier1 was protesting the dancing skills of Ron's as a hustle and unfair advantage to him.

 

[Ernie McClellan]

This is the first time I have seen someone (Eric B) suggest something close to what I have been thinking.

Imagine if you will a gathering of the top management at Wyndham. "We have to do something about all these damn complainers. It's on TUG and elsewhere. In the long run it could affect our bottom line. The biggest complaint seems to be about what they call megarenters. In order to stop these complainers, we have to do something that appears to spank the megarenters. Hopefully, this will shut up these complainers. Okay, so what do we do? Well, let it be known that we are going to do something really bad to the megarenters. Then we will send out an intimidating letter to them. Who are they? Oh, just send letters to any owner who appears to be renting excessively. What do we do then? We just sit back and watch everybody bitch at each other until they are exhausted, not at us. It seems like a plan. What do we do next? Oh, don’t worry. This will give us at least a year before we have to do more, and the bulge in reservations do to COVID will hopefully be over.”

I like where you are going here…the reality is that owners of real property have certain rights. I think we also know that if actual owners where on these Wyndham boards policies would better embrace full usage of property rights. I am not a Wyndham owner, so I have no skin in this game, but it definitely seems as if their actions could be more for optics than their actual concern about renters. I would be willing to bet that sales people are still suggesting rentals as a benefit of timeshare ownership…


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[55plus]

ron parise was playing the cow bell in this song

We need more cowbell...

 

[ilya]

I like where you are going here…the reality is that owners of real property have certain rights. I think we also know that if actual owners where on these Wyndham boards policies would better embrace full usage of property rights. I am not a Wyndham owner, so I have no skin in this game, but it definitely seems as if their actions could be more for optics than their actual concern about renters. I would be willing to bet that sales people are still suggesting rentals as a benefit of timeshare ownership…


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They sure are... Just today as a matter of fact... But in their new rental program ....

 

[Ernie McClellan]

They sure are... Just today as a matter of fact... But in their new rental program ....

Ahhh. I see. Makes sense. Is the new rental program setup to align with market rates? Or will it barely cover MFs?


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[vv813]

got goodwill point adjustment showing last night (showing on point summary page under next year, as developer) -not sure how they calculate this figure.

 

[Eric B]

got goodwill point adjustment showing last night (showing on point summary page under next year, as developer) -not sure how they calculate this figure.

I believe they calculate it by taking your average annual resale point total and multiplying it by the percentage discount you get at 60 days (VIPF = 60%, VIPP = 50%, VIPG = 35%, VIPB = 25%). I'm VIPG and the amount I got was 35% of (my annual resale points + 1/2 my biannual resale points), which gave me a bit more than I would have gotten if they just used the 2022 use year points since I have some EOYO resale points in there.

 

[CO skier]

With the current reservation system, I rarely get any VIP benefits. Fortunately for me, I have an abundance of points and do not need or rely on VIP benefits. A million here, a million there at 10 months works for me.

And of course if every cancellation goes to the waiting list...that would put an end to the cancel and rebook scam

If that ever happens [put and end to VIP cancel rebook scam], I am going to dump 4 million points ASAP.

Will the real jebloomquist please stand up and post with some consistency?

 

[Happy Hopian]

Anyone who thinks the changes in 2017 were not "effective" was not reading the TUG Wyndham Forum in 2017. Probably Facebook, too.

I think Wyndham is trying to preserve the VIP discount window, so Wyndham whittles away at the megarenter problem...

[Deleted.]

Straight up - are you OK with Wyndham acting as a rental agent? I want to book a certain resort and it's not available. Hasn't been for months but I can get it on Extra Holidays for an outrageous cost. THAT'S OK WITH YOU?!? So tell me this Colorado man, HOW is Wyndham renting units out ANY different than XYZ owner renting units out?

You do realize that with the points they TAKE BACK, they are putting them into Extra Holiday's until they re-sell them from their trust accounts....a benefit they get from holding the management contracts (which were never intended to put them in a place to compete against owners hence the fiduciary relationship they have in that role as a manager). In fact, can you tell me when Extra Holiday's started? Look it up - I did. It wasn't part of their original plans and therefore couldn't have been conceived as excluded from their obligations as manager of the trusts and properties.

Before you guess, I am not a mega renter. Never have been. Yes I get frustrated when I can't get rentals and I've blamed them too ...

[Deleted.]

Open your eyes - WYNDHAM DOESN'T WANT YOU HAPPY! THEY WANT YOU TO GIVE THE POINTS BACK TO THEM AT NO COST SO THEY CAN SELL THEM TO THE NEXT GUY/GAL.

I read with interest recently about Wyndham possibly exercising ROFR which Disney and others have done for years. Why would they do that when they are getting boat loads for free following two recessions in the last decade where people couldn't use nor afford their points? Think that over and consider two things. How many billion of FREE points do you think they got back in the last decade and for which they have in trust now where they can rent out as they see fit? They wouldn't be buying anything unless the profit on rental and resale is significantly profitable. That is all speculation from me, but I do know that I always ask the sales folks how business is while I bide my time to get through the update and over the last few years they have all told me it's not as good as it use to be. As a publicly traded company Wyndham has to press for higher profits NOT the satisfaction of owners who's exit from the system actually increases their margin by donating to their rental/trust/resale program.

Now, I'm going to go back to finding out why I can't get my points to show up correctly after their amazing change to thwart a bunch of people in hopes of improving Wyndham's profits - or maybe you still think this is all about owner satisfaction for a group of people who have no say, and can't get out unless they just GIVE their points back. Enjoy what you have today.

Moderator Note: This post was reported for over-the-top personal attacks, which have been deleted. This editing will serve as a reminder to adhere to the "Be Courteous" TUG rule or risk suspension. <-- SueDonJ

 

[ronparise]

Will the real jebloomquist please stand up and post with some consistency?

People change their mind, adapt, or just temper their views over time, and move on, at least most do. Jim’s posts are 5 years apart I wouldn’t expect them to be the same

 

[Sloane S]

People change their mind, adapt, or just temper their views over time, and move on, at least most do. Jim’s posts are 5 years apart I wouldn’t expect them to be the same

Wait, what?! How dare you have the audacity to re-evaluate and change your position/mind 5 years later?

 

[troy12n]

Straight up - are you OK with Wyndham acting as a rental agent? I want to book a certain resort and it's not available. Hasn't been for months but I can get it on Extra Holidays for an outrageous cost. THAT'S OK WITH YOU?!?

At the end of the day, Wyndham owns all this stuff and they can do whatever the hell they want with their property... it would be like, if you owned a home, and wanted to sell it, but your neighbor sues you to try to prevent it from being sold because they don't potentially want someone they don't like, or share "values" with, moving in

It's been proven time and time again that they aren't taking any inventory for these blackout dates, and what they do with the units/inventory they own outside of "the club", which, is substantial, is theirs to do with as they please. Pretty much the only things that end up on Extra Holidays is stuff nobody wants. But I don't know how many times this has to be proven.

Some of you just don't want to hear it though, and formulate vast conspiracies as to why Wyndham is the bad guy here, yet, at the same time praising the likes of RonPraise and the other mega renters... it's really bizzarely pied piper or stockholm syndrome going on here

 

[Eric B]

At the end of the day, Wyndham owns all this stuff and they can do whatever the hell they want with their property... it would be like, if you owned a home, and wanted to sell it, but your neighbor sues you to try to prevent it from being sold because they don't potentially want someone they don't like, or share "values" with, moving in

It's been proven time and time again that they aren't taking any inventory for these blackout dates, and what they do with the units/inventory they own outside of "the club", which, is substantial, is theirs to do with as they please. Pretty much the only things that end up on Extra Holidays is stuff nobody wants. But I don't know how many times this has to be proven.

Some of you just don't want to hear it though, and formulate vast conspiracies as to why Wyndham is the bad guy here, yet, at the same time praising the likes of RonPraise and the other mega renters... it's really bizzarely pied piper or stockholm syndrome going on here

Um, no; that’s a gross conceptual error. Wyndham manages the system for the owners, either deeded CWS or trust owners in CWA. They have some ownership of unsold inventory and occasionally set up things on an uneven field between themselves and the other actual owners.

Back to ignoring. Checking every once in a while is a weakness I really should avoid.