[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

[raygo123]

Auto upgrades did seem to fix cancel/rebook, but that’s a completely separate thing from whether auto upgrades themselves are working properly. Or at least, at the time Wyndham added auto upgrades, they also made it extraordinarily difficult to know when or whether your own cancellation would come back, in part due to the possibility of someone else’s auto upgrade. I haven’t heard anyone who disputes that (except this one guy on Facebook who insists he still rebooks his own cancellations, bless his heart). All that doesn’t mean that auto upgrades are working logically or consistently, just that the change served to thwart cancel/rebook.

No, what fixed cancel/ rebook is the VC not being able to do it for you.

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[CO skier]

Speaking of "bogeyman"... I just have to chuckle at the mention of autoupgrades fixing an issue. Besides not working (you can see an eligible upgrade sitting there for days, call about it and be told someone else is eligible for it ahead of you - and yet anyone could directly book that room).

I think some people just read what they want to read. If you reread my post, there is nothing about anything fixing anything, and there is nothing in the post about auto-upgrades working.

The introduction of automatic upgrades in 2017 effectively eliminated the practice of cancelling prime reservations booked at 13 months then rebooking the same reservation at a 50% discount or cancelling a studio and 4 bedroom Presidential within the VIP discount window and rebooking the 4 bedroom Presidential at 50% of the cost of the studio.

With Voyager (2017) upgrades became a black box.

Cancellations dropping into a black box is what made the 2017 change so effective.

 

[Sandi Bo]

The introduction of automatic upgrades in 2017 effectively eliminated the practice of cancelling prime reservations booked at 13 months then rebooking the same reservation at a 50% discount or cancelling a studio and 4 bedroom Presidential within the VIP discount window and rebooking the 4 bedroom Presidential at 50% of the cost of the studio.

I think some people just read what they want to read. If you reread my post, there is nothing about anything fixing anything, and there is nothing in the post about auto-upgrades working.

Cancellations dropping into a black box is what made the 2017 change so effective.

How wrong of me to infer that your comment that automatic upgrades in 2017 effectively eliminated cancel/rebook. How silly of me to think you were implying automatic upgrades work.

 

[CO skier]

... infer ...

... implying ...

That explains how you misread or misinterpreted my post.

Here is the definition of "eliminate" used in my post (nothing about "fixing" anything or auto-upgrades working)

"to remove from further competition by defeating"


My comment was also specific to 13-month reservations. There have been posts that cancel/rebook is still possible, but not so much for 13-month reservations.

 

[ronparise]

When I started renting wyndham reservations, I didnt /couldnt get discounted reservations, because I wasnt platinum VIP, but there were enough high value times and places that I could meet my modest goals

I will also note that Worldmark does not have a discount or upgrade program but they also do have a mega renters problem

my point is that I didn’t need owner to owner transfers, discounts, upgrades, the credit pool or any other loophole, gimmick or theft to make some money within the Wyndham timeshare systems

as Adam and I have both said. As long as there is an opportunity to make a little money someone will try to take advantage of it

 

[ronparise]

I think some people just read what they want to read. If you reread my post, there is nothing about anything fixing anything, and there is nothing in the post about auto-upgrades working.






Cancellations dropping into a black box is what made the 2017 change so effective.

If the changes made in 2017 were so effective, why is Wyndham fighting the same battle all over again?

 

[CO skier]

If the changes made in 2017 were so effective, why is Wyndham fighting the same battle all over again?

Anyone who thinks the changes in 2017 were not "effective" was not reading the TUG Wyndham Forum in 2017. Probably Facebook, too.

I think Wyndham is trying to preserve the VIP discount window, so Wyndham whittles away at the megarenter problem. If there was no VIP discount window, there would never have been an advantage to cancelling a reservation in the 60-day window and rebooking it. Rather than eliminate the VIP discount window in 2017, Wyndham introduced auto-upgrades that captured cancellations.

Perhaps that did not limit megarenting to the extent Wyndham wished, and now instead of eliminating the VIP discount window, Wyndham restricted the VIP discount window to only qualified VIP points.

There is no silver bullet solution. Wyndham will likely assess the effects of these latest changes. There may or may not be more changes in the future. That would not mean that past changes were not effective.

 

[chapjim]

<snip>

My comment was also specific to 13-month reservations. There have been posts that cancel/rebook is still possible, but not so much for 13-month reservations.

I haven't seen any correlation between when I made a reservation and the probability of a successful cancel/re-book. The probability of a successful cancel/re-book is so small to begin with.

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I tried to cancel and re-book. Reservations have been so difficult lately that I'm just happy to have something!

I did find a reservation at Bonnet Creek in the discount window that matched a reservation I had made a while back. But that was book (at a discount) and cancel. Different thing.

 

[Eric B]

Anyone who thinks the changes in 2017 were not "effective" was not reading the TUG Wyndham Forum in 2017. Probably Facebook, too.

I think Wyndham is trying to preserve the VIP discount window, so Wyndham whittles away at the megarenter problem. If there was no VIP discount window, there would never have been an advantage to cancelling a reservation in the 60-day window and rebooking it. Rather than eliminate the VIP discount window in 2017, Wyndham introduced auto-upgrades that captured cancellations.

Perhaps that did not limit megarenting to the extent Wyndham wished, and now instead of eliminating the VIP discount window, Wyndham restricted the VIP discount window to only qualified VIP points.

There is no silver bullet solution. Wyndham will likely assess the effects of these latest changes. There may or may not be more changes in the future. That would not mean that past changes were not effective.

That's a very generous interpretation. A more cynical one would be that Wyndham is shifting their marketing dollars to whatever the new subscription based program they will be starting next month. We will see what happens in the future, but it seems like none of the changes are expanding the benefits for current VIPs, so you can call me a cynic.

 

[VacayKat]

I don't know where rooms on travelocity, expedia, etc, come from. Over my head. But I don't think it's megarenters. And if it's not megarenters, who is it - doesn't it have to be Wyndham or a subsidiary somewhere - hidden layers beneath what you or I see? I do not believe there is much of a megarenter issue anymore. And yet, here we are, chasing that boogeyman. Pretty sure Wyndham is quite happy with how this is playing out.

According to Extra Holidays, both owner and wyndham rentals they control are listed on those AND more sites. May be a lot of the same availability, may not. That I do not know.

 

[CO skier]

I haven't seen any correlation between when I made a reservation and the probability of a successful cancel/re-book. The probability of a successful cancel/re-book is so small to begin with.

That is a testament, then, to the widespread effectiveness of the change in 2017.

 

[chapjim]

That is a testament, then, to the widespread effectiveness of the change in 2017.

Certainly, no argument there but I don't get your thirteen month comment. I haven't seen any difference and can't think why there would be.

 

[Manzana]

What I am confused about is when people say VIP is definitely not worth it for the price people pay for it then they are cheering when the benefits for VIPs are reduced and say the VIPs have been fortunate and should just deal with it. Even resale getting VIP benefits in my opinion is something that most not all people paid alot of money for. Just a little rant. Probably wrong thread but in reading everything I just feel that there is much complaining on all sides without a thought of what the others might have had to deal with or the money they spent to get where they are. Of course there are loopholes but that is a small percentage in total.

 

[CO skier]

Certainly, no argument there but I don't get your thirteen month comment. I haven't seen any difference and can't think why there would be.

In 2017, it was clear that cancel/rebook ended for 13-month reservations (and 10-month, too, but I did not want to complicate the post -- some people still got confused, simple as it was), so I limited my post to 13-month reservations.


I read this in 2017

The irony here is that - since they did not implement a waitlist - cancel/rebook still survives for the smallest units.

It is just cancel/rebook/upgrade that gets a lot more difficult.

which led me to believe that cancel/rebook was not completely undone. Apparently, cancel/rebook was effectively abolished. I posted only what I knew.

 

[CO skier]

Of course there are loopholes but that is a small percentage in total.

Cancel/rebook and cancel-cancel-rebook-upgrade-rebook repeat was a "loophole" of unbelievable proportions. There were posts about entire towers at Bonnet Creek being rented out using the scams.

 

[ronparise]

He got the golden parachute of timeshare bailouts... I guess if Wyndham wanted to make an example they could have just shut him down and make it incumbent on him to dispose of his stripped, worthless contracts himself.

250k in MF, wow...

I think Wyndham did make an example of me. There were two of us that talked to each other every step of the way. There were days when we had back to back appointments with the lawyer We were both offered the same “first offer” and we agreed on the number we would accept from Wyndham. The lawyer knew that I had usually just hung up with this other guy before I called in. We got the same price for our points. The “example” if that’s what it was was to let others caught in the same net. know, that dealing with Wyndham wasn’t a bad thing and that you will do better with Wyndham working with them than working against them

and the only thing that made my contracts worthless is that Wyndham had frozen my accounts As long as the credit pool was left alone the contracts had value

 

[ronparise]

How do we know Wyndham settled? I personally don't think Wyndham would settled as to not set a precedent, and they would have required a NDA. NDAs are standard procedures for corporations. The parties couldn't talking about their 'settlement' without violating the terms of the NDA, which usually makes the settlement moot and monies be returned. I'm just say'in.

as someone else pointed out, an agreement between the parties is just that an “agreement between the parties”. By that I mean the parties can agree to anything. If there is anything that is “standard procedure” In a contract it’s that there is an “ upon violation clause” included In my case there was a confidentiality clause and a penalty spelled out for violation it, but the penalty upon violation was small. I pretty much honored the confidentiality clause out of respect for the individuals I was dealing with at Wyndham, not a possible ipenalty

 

[raygo123]

I think Wyndham did make an example of me. There were two of us that talked to each other every step of the way. There were days when we had back to back appointments with the lawyer We were both offered the same “first offer” and we agreed on the number we would accept from Wyndham. The lawyer knew that I had usually just hung up with this other guy before I called in. We got the same price for our points. The “example” if that’s what it was was to let others caught in the same net that dealing with Wyndham wasn’t a bad thing and that you will do better with Wyndham working with them than working against them

and the only thing that made my contracts worthless is that Wyndham had frozen my accounts the accounts. As long as the credit pool was left alone the contracts had value

You were not made an example at all. All Wyndham had to do was to enforce the rules if they really wanted to make an example of you. Let you dangling in the wind with all your points. The only reason they didn't, the system would not let them. Now that they can, Wyndham is not. They are even giving everyone with resale points a gimmie? That's . They just want you all to go away. To drag any of you accross the coals does not warrant the time of day. Wyndham even had the good sense of honoring your commitments to you renters, potential owners. What would Wyndham gain? No one outside the maybe 39,000 Facebook people would even know about it.

All if you are now a footnote. When Wyndham used to have a bad rental problem.

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[ronparise]

Anyone who thinks the changes in 2017 were not "effective" was not reading the TUG Wyndham Forum in 2017. Probably Facebook, too.

I think Wyndham is trying to preserve the VIP discount window, so Wyndham whittles away at the megarenter problem. If there was no VIP discount window, there would never have been an advantage to cancelling a reservation in the 60-day window and rebooking it. Rather than eliminate the VIP discount window in 2017, Wyndham introduced auto-upgrades that captured cancellations.

Perhaps that did not limit megarenting to the extent Wyndham wished, and now instead of eliminating the VIP discount window, Wyndham restricted the VIP discount window to only qualified VIP points.

There is no silver bullet solution. Wyndham will likely assess the effects of these latest changes. There may or may not be more changes in the future. That would not mean that past changes were not effective.

I don’t mean to imply that the auto upgrades weren’t effective in limiting cancel / rebook it was. My comment, although I wasn’t clear, goes to another question

elimination of cancel and rebook should have ended large scale renting for profit. Except for certain high value reservations, my understanding and experience is that rental profit derives from the half price reservations. So my question better stated, is. What have the current mega renters (the 65 million point couple) been doing to profit since the end of cancel rebook?

 

[ronparise]

You were not made an example at all. All Wyndham had to do was to enforce the rules if they really wanted to make an example of you. Let you dangling in the wind with all your points. The only reason they didn't, the system would not let them. Now that they can, Wyndham is not. They are even giving everyone with resale points a gimmie? That's . They just want you all to go away. To drag any of you accross the coals does not warrant the time of day. Wyndham even had the good sense of honoring your commitments to you renters, potential owners. What would Wyndham gain? No one outside the maybe 39,000 Facebook people would even know about it.

All if you are now a footnote. When Wyndham used to have a bad rental problem.

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I agree completely

my point was that Wyndham might have used me to convince others at the time that it made more sense to get out than fight

and to your point, “when Wyndham had a bad rental problem”: why are the still fighting this “problem” if the problem is in the past


I don’t think the problem is or was rentals at al.I think the problem is that the system is effectively oversold
Not actually oversold, I mean everyone can get a reservation somewhere. It may be at Fairfield Glade when you really wanted the beach but you can get a reservation so it’s not really oversold. But that doesn’t matter. If an owner can’t get what he wants, when he wants it there will be complaints and sales will suffer


and rentals are a convenient boogeyman man. In fact it really doesn’t matter if an owner or a renter is staying in the unit next to yours. What matters is you couldn’t get a second reservation at the last minute for a friend or family member. When you get to the resort and see a renter, not another owner you get pissed. And might complain

 

[55plus]

What I am confused about is when people say VIP is definitely not worth it for the price people pay for it then they are cheering when the benefits for VIPs are reduced and say the VIPs have been fortunate and should just deal with it. Even resale getting VIP benefits in my opinion is something that most not all people paid alot of money for. Just a little rant. Probably wrong thread but in reading everything I just feel that there is much complaining on all sides without a thought of what the others might have had to deal with or the money they spent to get where they are. Of course there are loopholes but that is a small percentage in total.

VIP will pay for itself over time if you use discount point reservations. The more discount point reservations you get, the sooner it pays for itself. We're VIPP going on 30 years. It paid for itself many times over. We travel mainly to Florida for about 6 months a year during the winter months. Plenty of availability in the winter months equates to plenty of discounted reservations. It's all about how you use it. Do the math to see if it works for you.

 

[paxsarah]

We're VIPP going on 30 years.

Also, VIP bought 30 years ago is far more likely to have paid for itself than VIP bought today. The buy-in has increased and the benefits have decreased. It will take far longer for a VIP buying in today to ever break even.

 

[Manzana]

I am VIPG just dropped from VIPP due to bonus points. I see the value and it has come close to paying for itself if I consider upgrades and discounts. When I can get a 4 bedroom presidential at Desert Blue for a week for half the price of a studio i make a big dent in the break even points. I have found I was able to do this or something similar many times. Over the last 2 years. I am not a mega renter but I do use the benefits to my ability. RTs are saved when there is a similar unit available at 60 days and now again if a better unit or even the same unit is available at 45 days with a discount and upgrade. I also like others make speculative reservations 10 months out. If a popular location has a unit available I will be on at midnight (9pm PST) to make sure I can secure the unit then will discuss with my family where we want to go. Sometimes holding the unit for months even up to the cancellation deadline because we are not sure where we are going or if we might just change our minds and take a cruise. The main point is Be careful what you are asking for because first they may reduce benefits for VIP owners but next they may reduce benefits of Resale Owners. Then where would all of us Tuggers be?

 

[paxsarah]

If your bonus points just dropped off then you were still grandfathered under the most recent old VIP levels. Imagine having to buy another 100,000 points direct from Wyndham and not having unlimited housekeeping credits, then calculating your break-even point.

 

[Manzana]

If your bonus points just dropped off then you were still grandfathered under the most recent old VIP levels. Imagine having to buy another 100,000 points direct from Wyndham and not having unlimited housekeeping credits, then calculating your break-even point.

Yes when those changes were made it made me stop telling my friends that if they wanted to go VIP I would help them figure out the most cost efficient way to saying that It was not worth the investment IMHO. I can only hope that the benefits do not get reduced any more and somehow improve in the years to come.