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Hilton Grand Vacations strikes deal to acquire Diamond Resorts

So if we’re comparing prices, expenses and clubs......

DRI’S THE Club management fee’s, a pure management fee was something like $545 the last year we were owners (2015). The more we owned, the higher the fee went.

With MVC (I know, it’s not HGVC so who cares), we own two 3 bedroom, one 2 bedroom plus 4250 trust points. The management fee to participate in their points program is currently $280. Single night reservations at 13 months, no exchange fees, no lock off fees, and no weeks exchange fees when using II and exchanging between MVC resorts. Polo Towers MF’s were equal to MVC’s Grand Chateau’s MF but, PT’s was putting only $100 towards cash reserves while GC was putting $400 towards cash reserves.

HGVC’s dues are, I believe $195 regardless of how many weeks you own. Members pay an ala carte fee structure so, if you use it, you pay for it. If you don’t, there’s nothing extra to pay. Their membership fee is mandatory. If memory serves me, as a deeded week owner with DRI, I could opt out of THE Club and not have to pay their membership fee. When we left DRI and deeded back our PoloTowers deeds, the MF’s were somewhere between $1,200 and $1,500. At that same time (2015) our HGVC MF’s at HGVC LV Blv was still under $1,000, and that included HGVC’s membership fee. There is no comparison between Polo Towers quality, both in resorts and units, and HGVC LV Blv.

The comparison led us to get rid of DRI while keeping HGVC and expanding our MVC ownership.

DRI had some advantages. Considerably more locations than HGVC and an easier to use internal exchange program. I find HGVC’s program somewhat restrictive. Having to wait 9 months is inconvenient for us. I preferred DRI’s 10 month window. Booking Hawaii with HGVC can be challenging to say the least. Booking deluxe units at DRI’s KBC was very easy. At the time I prefers that DRI exchange with II and not RCI (although that’s apparently changing now). In short, DRI had the better internal exchange program with great locations, but that price tag was horrible. DRI’s quality, while better than average, was still beneath HGVC’s quality.

Our reasons for leaving DRI and keeping HGVC and MVC was purely financial. I loved the program, it was just to expensive considering the quality and we’re we live. We live in the Midwest. If we had lived on the west coast and if we could fly affordably to Hawaii, we very well may have kept DRI and dumped HGVC. As it is, Hawaii is a good 12 to 18 hours of flying with a price tag of $1,200 to fly coach and $3,600 to fly first class. Since we used DRI primarily for Branson and Las Vegas with occasional trips to other drive to locations (Santa Fe, Colorado) or the less expensive flight to Phoenix, DRI just didn’t make sense for us at their price point. HGVC and MVC had us covered for less money and better quality.

So, if we’re going to have a wish list of what we’d like with this acquisition, I want to see HGVC’s management fee structure combined with DRI’s more flexible booking engine. Will that happen? Probably not. But I also don’t anticipate that HGVC will adopt DRI’s horrendous management fee structure. I’ll be happy if they keep both programs reasonably separate with the ability to book across brand lines so long as the cost is reasonable. MVC had an original “joiner fee” around $695 for deeded week owners participation i. The DC points program. I’d be content with something similar out of HGVC with a decent points overlay program (1 HGVC point = x number of DRI points).

I’m not nearly as anxious with HGVC’s management in charge as I would have been with DRI’s management team. The escalation in management/MF’s chased us from DRI several years ago. If DRI had been the management team in charge, I wouldn’t jump off a bridge....... yet, but I’d be looking at exit options just in case.
Great input.
 
I’ll be happy if they keep both programs reasonably separate with the ability to book across brand lines so long as the cost is reasonable.

I give @dougp26364 credit for the smartest post on this thread. I do not expect it, but I would also like to have the flexibility to use my HGVC points to affordably exchange into Diamond.

I have my first exchange (RCI Points) into a Diamond resort coming up this June. It is to the the Beachwoods at Kitty Hawk NC for a long weekend after the kids finish school for the year. It is not a horrible exchange value, but comes with the $29.95 daily resort fee (on top of the short stay $65 cleaning fee for a 2BR). I get people complaining about the resort fee for HGVC trades on RCI, but in this case it involves a Silver Crown RCI resort with 3 & 1/2 circles on TripAdvisor. We don't mind paying extra this time because we want to get away from people (Outer Banks versus Virginia Beach) more during COVID and there is a novelty to trying the place. Moving forward, I do not see many exchanges into Diamond for me unless it becomes a better value for our family to trade in through HGVC.

And while I complain about the fees, my June trip is still an affordable trip compared to paying for a hotel or resort there in cash, but there are certainly better trades to be made on RCI ... just not one I could execute for that exact area at that time.
 
A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to what HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.
 
A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to what HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.
It could be done, they just can't pull out more weeks than they have for points sold from the trust. So if the trust is almost sold out, then they really couldn't do it since moving the weeks out of the trust would cause a situation where there is more sold than the trust owns. I am not aware of a single timeshare trust that has removed inventory (Marriott hasn't done it in 11 years of their trust).

They may also run into some legal problems brought by people that bought into the trust knowing that there were certain weeks available to book and all of a sudden those were pulled out from under them. Imagine if they wanted to pull all the prime week 52s out after years of you being able to book them. I think it would cause a lot of problems and a reason why we really haven't seen it happen in other systems yet.
 
I think that's silly. In our lives we make comparisons all the time be

Returning to Diamond - The Grand Hyatt is almost next door to Point at Poipu. Grand Hyatt is a classy place. I could stay there in an ocean view, 500 sq ft hotel room with 2 queen beds for one week in our travel period for $5700. But wait, we have people traveling with us - DD, SIL, DG - they would need a room for themselves. So make that $11,400.

Or we can stay at Poipu ~100 yards away, in a 2-bedroom ocean front unit ~1300 sf, with living room and fully equipped kitchen.

We stayed at that Grand Hyatt a few years back, and it was fabulous. And likely as pricey as you say. Not wanting to pay that, we used points :)

With an option to stay in the same area, albeit in less fancy digs, at a reduced cost, we'd jump on that.

Cheers.
 
A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to what HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.
It could be done, they just can't pull out more weeks than they have for points sold from the trust. So if the trust is almost sold out, then they really couldn't do it since moving the weeks out of the trust would cause a situation where there is more sold than the trust owns. I am not aware of a single timeshare trust that has removed inventory (Marriott hasn't done it in 11 years of their trust).

They may also run into some legal problems brought by people that bought into the trust knowing that there were certain weeks available to book and all of a sudden those were pulled out from under them. Imagine if they wanted to pull all the prime week 52s out after years of you being able to book them. I think it would cause a lot of problems and a reason why we really haven't seen it happen in other systems yet.
You would have to review the trust documents to be sure, but from what I understand the simple answer is "No". Underlying it all is who owns the resort. Let's say the resort has been deeded out with each deed representing one week of a specific unit. Those deeds are then held by some mixture of individuals and by one or more of the trusts. Those ownerships define usage rights at the resort. The resort could be rebranded to HGV, but that wouldn't affect the usage right.

Let's say one of the trusts holds 95% of the deeded weeks at the resort, and the resort is rebranded as HGV. Then, while it might branded HGV, the trust would still be assigned 95% of the available weeks at the resort for use by trust members.

What could happen is that if the remaining 5% of the deeds is owned by DRI, those deeds would now be owned by HGV, which HGV could then use for its own program. But the other 95% would remain with the old DRI trust.

The only way to get the resort out of the trust would be for the trust to sell its holdings, replacing what was sold with what something else. That's where you would have to get into the weeds of the trust documents to know if that is even a possibility. If the trust documents, for example, stipulate that the trust was created to hold ownership in a specific set of resorts, it might not be possible to swap one resort for another without changing the trust documents.
 
The big question I have is, does the Internet and AC fees go back to the HOA or do they go into the resort managers coffers?
to the HOA.
 
to the HOA.
so does Diamond reimburse the HOA when they waive the fee for gold and platinum members? and does the resort HOA get the fees when the resort charges a flat daily resort fee from exchangers and renters?
 
The complaint about the res fees appear to be irrelevant. The total cost is what matters. From what I have seen thus far, the costs for HGVC in Hawaii for a 2bdrm run in the $1800 - $2000 range similar to Point at Poipu. I believe the Big Island properties for HGVC maint are less - around $1400 - $1770 depending on the unit. The HGVC unit quality is higher for about the same total cost as DRI.

For the points system. How many DRI points are needed to get a 2 bdrm in Hawaii and how much does that cost overall per week?

FWIW...I am delighted that we will be getting options in Kauai, Sedona, Cabo and Lake Tahoe. I hope they make it cost effective to trade otherwise we'll just live with what we've got. We have properties in both Vistana and HGVC so we are getting the best of both worlds. :cool:
 
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so does Diamond reimburse the HOA when they waive the fee for gold and platinum members?
I believe so, but I've never peeled back the covers to look.
and does the resort HOA get the fees when the resort charges a flat daily resort fee from exchangers and renters?
I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. All money that comes in to the resort goes to the HOA (or it's functional equivalent). No revenue goes directly to Diamond. Diamond's revenue is their management fee.
 
A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.

Yes, in fact they have pulled resorts out of the European trust and sold them. Membership has declined precipitously in England, so five or six resorts have been sold.

The Cabo resort is held within its own trust. There are no other resorts in the "Latin America" trust. It could easily be rebrand and it is Diamond's highest quality resort; the only Diamond Resort that gets II's Primer status.

Most likely, I think, is the Embarc system. It already has a trust if Hilton wants to add a trust product to HGVC. Currently, Embarc is a standalone system; not integrated into the DRI Club. And the locates are all HGVC standards.

[edit] Oh ya, I forgot about The Modern. The hotel in Oahu. That one is not in any trust, and Diamond is planning to convert it to timeshare condos floor by floor.
 
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You would have to review the trust documents to be sure, but from what I understand the simple answer is "No". Underlying it all is who owns the resort. Let's say the resort has been deeded out with each deed representing one week of a specific unit. Those deeds are then held by some mixture of individuals and by one or more of the trusts. Those ownerships define usage rights at the resort. The resort could be rebranded to HGV, but that wouldn't affect the usage right.

Let's say one of the trusts holds 95% of the deeded weeks at the resort, and the resort is rebranded as HGV. Then, while it might branded HGV, the trust would still be assigned 95% of the available weeks at the resort for use by trust members.

What could happen is that if the remaining 5% of the deeds is owned by DRI, those deeds would now be owned by HGV, which HGV could then use for its own program. But the other 95% would remain with the old DRI trust.

The only way to get the resort out of the trust would be for the trust to sell its holdings, replacing what was sold with what something else. That's where you would have to get into the weeds of the trust documents to know if that is even a possibility. If the trust documents, for example, stipulate that the trust was created to hold ownership in a specific set of resorts, it might not be possible to swap one resort for another without changing the trust documents.

Diamond regularly withdraws deeds from the trusts. The only legal requirement is the one-to-one correspondence. So if deeds are taken out of say the Hawaii trust, they would have to be replaced with use rights at another location.
 
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HGVC has a large Asian customer base who buy primarily in Hawaii. I have heard that such customers dislike trusts but prefer the deeded options with point similar to HGVC today. It will be interesting to see if HGVC puts together a program to withdraw some HI units from the trusts to sell in this mode. They could wind down customers as in the UK with deedbacks, or transition, or replace with extra units on the Big Island.
 
so does Diamond reimburse the HOA when they waive the fee for gold and platinum members? and does the resort HOA get the fees when the resort charges a flat daily resort fee from exchangers and renters?

The money does not show up directly in the hoa budget. It is charged by the resort's management company and is part of that company's revenue. The management company is a subsidy of Diamond Corporate. But Diamond subsidizes the HOAs, so the money gets back that way.
 
My greatest fear is does this "us" include current Diamond owners.
We will have to wait and see, but historically Hilton has been good to pre-existing owners of the resorts brought into the Club. I am familiar with the SW Florida resorts which were part of Mariner. Owners, whether pre-existing or new owners of weeks at those resorts have never been required to join the HGV Club. The Mariner resorts typically were dual-affiliated with RCI and II, and as far as I know, they still maintain their dual affiliations. Thus, an owner at any of those resorts can choose to join HGV Club, join RCI and/or II, join all three, or join none. If an owner joins none, he or she pays only the maintenance fees set by the board at his or her resort and taxes imposed by the county in which it is located.

I am not familiar with other Hilton takeovers. However, this morning I decided to learn what happened when Hilton took over operation of Elara. Elara was previously known as PH (Planet Hollywood) Towers and was owned and marketed by Westgate Resorts before it ran into financial trouble during the Great Recession. Westgate sold PH Towers to Resort Finance America LLC, which was a unit of Centerbridge Capital Partners, and RFA appointed HGV to market and manage the project. The companies put out a news release which said, "The 12,000-plus existing timeshare owners of PH Towers Westgate will continue with full ownership rights and benefits associated with their original purchase from Westgate Resorts," according to the Las Vegas Sun newspaper's online Vegas Inc.

Perhaps there are some other TUG members who can provide information about other Hilton takeovers. I think the opportunity for Hilton and Diamond in this combination is to retain revenues from sales of new projects, resales at resorts where they are appointed to be the resale agent, and management fees from resorts that the combined Hilton/Diamond manages, while cutting duplicative costs and expenses so that the overall enterprise is more profitable than the two separate enterprises were. As far as raising maintenance fees at individual resorts, Hilton cannot do that without convincing the boards of directors at those individual resorts to do so, and if it does, the money from those maintenance fees (except for Hilton's own management fee paid by the resort) have to stay with the resort and be used for the benefit of the resort. The boards of those resorts likely have contracts for resort management with Diamond which Hilton will now be performing in Diamond's place. If the boards of those resorts had any brains when they entered into those contracts, the contracts probably eventually expire or could be terminated if Diamond's (and now Hilton's) management services are unsatisfactory. Hilton isn't going to want that.

One thing I haven't mentioned so far is the trust that Diamond uses for its club. I have never seen it. I would speculate that it says something like, "you place your week into the trust so that we (Diamond) are the owner of that week, but we promise to give you weeks, points, or some other measure of time in the resorts which are part of this trust." What could Diamond, and now Hilton, do with this trust? Dissolve it? Why would they want to do that? It sounds like the fees Diamond is charging its members who are members of this trust include fees that go to Diamond (and soon, Hilton). Hilton isn't going to cut off its nose to spite its face. I could see that Hilton might try to find a way for Diamond trust members to get access to HGVC resorts, and if that happens, HGVC members will probably get corresponding access to the resorts in Diamond's trust. If that does happen, I would not anticipate HGVC members overwhelming the trust with reservations for Diamond resorts. First, there are a lot more Diamond members than there are Hilton members. More importantly, my own experience has been that Hilton gives up points in its club (which translate into some type of usage in one of its resorts, depending on size, time of year, etc) if an affiliate owner chooses to exchange his or her week for points. The affiliate owner gets HGVC points, and the affiliate owner's week then shows up in HGVC's system as available to a Hilton owner for a certain amount of points. There has never been any mass taking of anything away from owners in resorts "taken over" by Hilton. But this is my own complete speculation, having never read any of Diamond's documents.

Hilton's email to its members states in relevant part, "I want to assure you that your ownership rights and access to your Home Resort will not be changed or diluted. . . . Integrating the two companies is anticipated to be a multi-year, phased initiative, which means you may not hear about expanded offerings or benefits immediately." Later, in the same email, Hilton states, "Together, we will provide the broadest range of offerings with a wider array of price points – a new HGV sub-brand to complement our existing Hilton Grand Vacations and By Hilton Club brands." (Emphasis added) Once again, I believe Hilton's statements. What is available to you and what is available to me is not changing any time soon, and when it does change, Hilton is looking to expand offerings, not take them away. They are not looking to upset the apple cart.

I bought into HGVC 20 years ago this year. At that time, the "news" in the industry was that Hilton, Marriott, Starwood, Disney, and several others were changing the timeshare game drastically by being fairer to customers. Here's a typical statement from a newspaper article in 2008: "Virtually all investments look bad these days, but some pretty big names want you to reconsider one of the most maligned of all: the timeshare. High pressure tactics and deceptive costs have given timeshares a mixed reputation. But companies including Disney, Marriott, Hyatt, Starwood and Hilton dominate the industry, offering new perks and better value." I believe that Hilton has done this over the years. I haven't seen anything about its combination with Diamond that indicates it is changing this philosophy.

The last thing I can think of is fees. Hilton has not been considered to have outrageous fees. Its fees are generally less than Marriott's or Disney's. Diamond has been alleged to have high fees, although the comments from many of you Diamond owners is that Diamond's fees aren't that bad. With a new HGV sub-brand, it seems likely that the fee structure that Diamond uses now isn't going to change right away. Perhaps it will never change. If and when it does change, Hilton's charges now are (1) resort maintenance fees and taxes, (2) an annual club fee, and (3) reservation fees (except for various levels of Elite owners, who avoid these fees by owning enough weeks/points) to qualify. It sounds like Diamond builds some of these fees into one fee, so there aren't separate fees. If Hilton changes the way that fees are charged, I doubt the overall amount of fees will increase, although some people's fees might be more and some people's fees less, depending on how they vacation.

The more I look at this, the more I can see good possibilities coming from it. Hilton is telling us this, also. Our inclination as customers is never to believe what a timeshare company says, and for good reason, but I think Hilton's actions over the years show that it does do, and wants to do, a good job for its resort owners.
 
HGVC has a large Asian customer base who buy primarily in Hawaii. I have heard that such customers dislike trusts but prefer the deeded options with point similar to HGVC today. It will be interesting to see if HGVC puts together a program to withdraw some HI units from the trusts to sell in this mode. They could wind down customers as in the UK with deedbacks, or transition, or replace with extra units on the Big Island.

I mentioned upthread that the announcement alludes to HGVC continuing to sell a deeded product.

"HGV’s deeded product provides premium pricing, inventory sourcing flexibility, and the ability to pre-sell projects to support strong project-level cash flow, while giving buyers and owners the value of guaranteed availability."

To me this is good news as I think they will try to be accommodating to deeded weeks. If the Modern is not yet declared into a Trust they could sell that as deeded weeks and Maui as deeded weeks. That likely gives them enough deeded Hawaii inventory to sell to those wanting a deed (and if they come up with a decent program allowing access to trust weeks, they can still cross-sell "access" to the other trust resorts in Hawaii even if you buy a deed elsewhere).

Nothing obligates HGV to take any weeks out of the trust in order to rebrand a resort in the trust. In fact, I am sure they will "re-brand" everything they purchased....some with a new brand and some may become HGV (all sitting in the exact same trusts they do now, and possibly with little to no changes from how the DRI system currently works). Just because they slap the HGV name on something doesn't mean they MUST give existing HGV members access to it in any way. Of course, I am sure they will develop some sort of "system" to permit interaction between the trusts, bHC and existing HGV resorts.
 
There is a annual membership option that bHC owners have that is a higher priced annual fee, but it includes all reservations fees for free. I would gladly pay for this level if they would offer it. Maybe they will to cover the concept of what DRI had.
 
FYI...some interesting figures in this article:

"Diamond had 92 properties across 18 countries and nearly 400,000 resort owners. They’re so large, in fact, that they eclipse Hilton Grand Vacation’s 62 locations across four countries with over 325,5000 owners, and even Marriott Vacation Club’s 70 locations and 400,000 owners."

That means that HGV will have approx. 725,000 owners (some will be overlapping with two ownerships so a bit lower than this) vs. MVC's 400,000 owners. Wow. That give HGVC almost double MVC in terms of customers to approach for upsell and prevents HGVC from being viewed as a takeover target. What's also interesting is that HGVC now can upsell DRI with ability to convert to Hilton hotel points. Something they couldn't do under Diamond. It will be interesting to see how they roll this out.

 
I assume you want $$.

That's not a straightforward question, because ownership situations can vary. But here is one simple and straightforward option.

We own a deeded week at the Point at Poipu. This is not part of DRI's Hawaii trust (we own some of that as well). That deed allows reservation of any 2-bedroom unit at Point at Poipu for one week. We use it to book ocean front units, the highest level of unit (better than ocean view). For 2021 our fees for that deed are $1812.93, which includes owners association and vacation ownership association operating fees and expenses., owners association reserve account contributions, Hawaii general excise tax, and Hawaii real property tax for our deed. The numbers will be somewhat different for the same unit if I reckon based on what it would cost us for the same unit using our Hawaii trust interest.

Still considerably cheaper than what a comparable ocean front unit would cost at similar ocean front units in Poipu at owner rental sites such as VRBO.
For us, we think $258.99/night for a very spacious, 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom oceanfront unit is a very good deal. The adults only hot tub, large pool with swimming lanes, and pool bar & grill with Mike, Karen, or Vada bartending make it an exceptional value.
 
For us, we think $258.99/night for a very spacious, 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom oceanfront unit is a very good deal. The adults only hot tub, large pool with swimming lanes, and pool bar & grill with Mike, Karen, or Vada bartending make it an exceptional value.

That's a good price for oceanfront in Hawaii. What quality level is this resort? I am looking forward to additional HGVC options in Kauai. To compare, The Westins and Marriotts on Kaanapali run $2400 - $2800 for OF MF. Some of the Hiltons can be as low as $1000 if one trades from Vegas property into Waikiki or BI but you don't get first choice. If you own in HI, the MF's run in the $1500 - $1800+ range.
 
That's a good price for oceanfront in Hawaii. What quality level is this resort? I am looking forward to additional HGVC options in Kauai. To compare, The Westins and Marriotts on Kaanapali run $2400 - $2800 for OF MF. Some of the Hiltons can be as low as $1000 if one trades from Vegas property into Waikiki or BI but you don't get first choice. If you own in HI, the MF's run in the $1500 - $1800+ range.
I wouldn't call the Point at Poipu deluxe, but I would call it casual comfort. They've been updating the rooms, and before the pandemic, they finally started updating the kitchens. Here's plenty of pictures (some from before the updates).

 
I wouldn't call the Point at Poipu deluxe, but I would call it casual comfort. They've been updating the rooms, and before the pandemic, they finally started updating the kitchens. Here's plenty of pictures (some from before the updates).


I think it would fit well in the HGVC Hawaii portfolio - I consider it a sort of Kohala Suites but right on the ocean.
 
I wouldn't call the Point at Poipu deluxe, but I would call it casual comfort. They've been updating the rooms, and before the pandemic, they finally started updating the kitchens. Here's plenty of pictures (some from before the updates).

Nice pictures and quite representative.

We regard Point at Poipu as a place to live. We bought there because it felt to us like a home, not a hotel. It was a place we could almost see ourselves living in. A place that we would come back to and where our adult kids might want to come as well, bringing their kids. And we could all spend time together as a multi-generational family. Glad to say that it has worked out exactly that way.
 
Looks nice! Love the views. The buildings and grounds appear in much better shape than KBC. Aside from the hideous pink color at KBC, I thought the railings at KBC looked cheap (thin white all metal vs capped like this) and the grounds could use renovation in certain areas. With the exception of the white appliances, the furnishings at Poipu look similar to HGVC Lagoon.
 
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I wouldn't call the Point at Poipu deluxe, but I would call it casual comfort. They've been updating the rooms, and before the pandemic, they finally started updating the kitchens. Here's plenty of pictures (some from before the updates).


That looks quite nice. And one could always wander to the Hyatt and use some of their restaurants and such.

Cheers.
 
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