II unit size upgrade fees

[disneymom1]

My experience trading is limited. I have traded my platinum prime week studio for a 2 bedroom in gold season. I gave up a better week/smaller unit for a less desired week/larger unit. I think my trade was allowed because the trading power was similar, which is why I was able to match the trade in the first place. I am not understanding what the fee is for? Have members been able to trade platinum season studios for platinum 2 bedroom units?

Smells like a money grab.

 

[tschwa2]

Studios have uptraded rather poorly in the past. For instant exchanges it seemed like 1 br units exchanged nearly the same as a 2 br unit. So a 1 br platinum could get a 2 br platinum if it were available for instant exchange. Even a 1 br gold could exchange into a 2 br and even 3br platinum in areas like Williamsburg, and Orlando and Branson if there was enough inventory.

 

[PamMo]

With ever increasing MF's, property taxes, club, and trading fees, timesharing has become much less attractive. We primarily own where we want to vacation, but are starting to think it makes more sense to sell/give away ALL of our weeks and become renters. It was nice to feel like we "won" the game once in awhile, but it's getting much harder.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

With ever increasing MF's, property taxes, club, and trading fees, timesharing has become much less attractive. We primarily own where we want to vacation, but are starting to think it makes more sense to sell/give away ALL of our weeks and become renters. It was nice to feel like we "won" the game once in awhile, but it's getting much harder.

I totally agree with this. There is far less value in premium weeks like Marriott and it will only decrease further.

 

[Marathoner]

While I understand the natural reaction that people are expressing in this thread, it also seems like a lot of people have a sense of entitlement around continuing to be able to trade a studio for a 1 bedroom or 2 bedroom. At the end of the day, if the $99 per upgrade is not worth it, you should absolutely vote with your pocketbook and not do the trade.

II is a corporation. They will only revert back to their prior methodology if they see a revenue decline. The fact that II is looking to increase their profit margins seems to be making people mad when this type of action is what most companies are doing. I expect that we will all adapt and adjust. We will figure out new ways to get maximum value out of our timeshares and II exchanges. It is somewhat ludicrous to read that some people will stop exchanging or use RCI. Go ahead and do it if that creates more value for you, but I suspect that people will pay the fee because the value in exchanging into a Marriott or Hilton or Hyatt and upgrading from 1 BR to 2 BR is still a great deal even with the additional fee.

Go ahead and vent since it is likely cathartic and somewhat entertaining to read. But lets not get carried away and say that II has suddenly lost huge value simply because of a new fee.

 

[JIMinNC]

I'm not sure what I'm missing, but to me, the statements that this dramatically changes the economic model or causes someone to want to sell their units seems a bit overdone.

Most Marriott maintenance fees for 2BR or 3BR units are $1200 to $1500 per year. This change adds $99 for a one level upgrade. So instead of getting two 7 night trades for $85 to $107 per night, the cost becomes $92 to $114 per night. It's an increase, yes, but I don't see how it totally changes the economic model of using a lock-off to get two-for-one trades.

 

[dioxide45]

The way to protect the larger unit owners would be to program the site so that only equal size units showed for instant exchanges and that OGS only matched with the same size or smaller. By initiating the fee you are letting smaller unit owners take larger units that they couldn't get before. More large inventory can now be grabbed by cheaper, smaller, less desirable units as long as they pay an extra fee. No protection at all.

I would agree. The explanation given is horse hockey. Over in the II Community forums, many have reported that their studios can see a lot more inventory. That means that people that were not previously able to make an exchange, can now do so by simply paying an upgrade fee. It isn't doing anything to protect owners of larger units. It is only helping to increase IIs profits. If they had left the demand model the same and units after 6/25 saw the same units as those before, then I would buy that they are protecting owners of larger units. But that isn't the case. I suspect we will see even lower numbers of 1BR and 2BR units.

This change does a lot to help people at independent properties with low MFs that lock off. It certainly isn't a big benefit to those with Marriott ownership in II that lock off. Those units can see just about the same thing today that we could see before the change, now just with the added fee for larger units.

If this change really does lead to increased inventory in II for larger units, I am actually okay with paying the fee to get an upgrade further out than a few months from checkin. I fear that won't be the case. Units that couldn't see the bigger units before can see them now and just upgrade for the fee. Many people now suspect that II was holding back on allowing the studios to see a lot of larger inventory for the last year or so in anticipation of this change. I guess it will take about six months or so to see how the inventory situation plays out.

 

[dioxide45]

I'm not sure what I'm missing, but to me, the statements that this dramatically changes the economic model or causes someone to want to sell their units seems a bit overdone.

Most Marriott maintenance fees for 2BR or 3BR units are $1200 to $1500 per year. This change adds $99 for a one level upgrade. So instead of getting two 7 night trades for $85 to $107 per night, the cost becomes $92 to $114 per night. It's an increase, yes, but I don't see how it totally changes the economic model of using a lock-off to get two-for-one trades.

The upgrade fee works out to anywhere from $14 per night up to $44 per night, depending on how many steps up you do. So not sure why you are only adding $7 a night for the added cost. For Gold and Platinum II members, the fee is a little less, though you also have to pay to upgrade to those levels. I suspect the fee to upgrade to those levels will go up now that they get a pretty good discount on the upgrade fees.

Does it really change the whole exchange economic model. To an extent, I think it does if you were used to upgrading a 2BR lock off in to two 2BR units. What used to cost about $268 in the past now costs $565 today. That is a 90% increase in their exchange fees, literally overnight!

Think about the system as it is currently implemented. A 1BR Hawaii owner books a June week for exchange. They deposit it in to II. That owner gets a 2BR Orlando week in September. It cost them $134+99=$233. That Orlando owner uses their 2BR to exchange in to that same 1BR Hawaii week the other owner gave up. They get the week even Steven. No reimbursement for the downgrade.

If II really wanted to protect owners of 2BR and larger units, they would institute some kind of credit system. Downgrade and perhaps get the upgrade fee as a credit to use toward a later upgrade. Perhaps even knock $10 off the amount they credit to give II something. At least it would be something and it would help to spur more 2BR deposits in to II.

 

[JIMinNC]

The upgrade fee works out to anywhere from $14 per night up to $44 per night, depending on how many steps up you do. So not sure why you are only adding $7 a night for the added cost. For Gold and Platinum II members, the fee is a little less, though you also have to pay to upgrade to those levels. I suspect the fee to upgrade to those levels will go up now that they get a pretty good discount on the upgrade fees.

Here's were I got the $7 increase, maybe I'm missing something since I've never owned a lock-off and am only now trying our first weeks system trade with an ongoing search:

Before fee was implemented: MF = $1400; split the lock-off and get 14 nights; That's $100/night for two weeks of lodging

After fee was implemented: MF=$1400; split the lock-off and get 14 nights; Plus new upgrade fee = $99; Total cost of two weeks = $1499; That's $107/night.

(Obviously, a two level upgrade would be $1598 or $114/night, but my impression was that in the previous world before the fee, two-step upgrades were less frequent than one step.)

So I'm not looking at just the exchange fees, I'm looking at the total cost of the trips that can be received from the ownership. Also, if the owner is enrolled, I assume the only fee is the upgrade fee (plus the MF, of course).

 

[Superchief]

MVC is Probably Happy

I think MVC is happy with this change. They no longer will have to hear potential point buyers tell them about their studio exchanges for 2BR villas. As an enrolled owner with more weeks than I can use, the VC point conversion for my weeks provide a lot more options than II exchanges, and don't incur additional fees. I will likely not make any more II deposits in the future.

The fact that II doesn't take into consideration the resort or season being exchanged is the deal killer for me. In the past, I typically only tried to exchange studio for 1 or 2BR for lower demand resorts or weeks. In many cases, the rental value of a studio at a high demand resort/week was comparable for a 2BR at a lower demand resort/week. This isn't taken into consideration.

 

[kds4]

Go ahead and vent since it is likely cathartic and somewhat entertaining to read. But lets not get carried away and say that II has suddenly lost huge value simply because of a new fee.

How much value has been lost depends on how an owner uses their II membership and the reasons why they joined in the first place. In the 6 years we have been II members, we have always traded from Marriott to Marriott and the reason we have been doing it through II has been the ability to 'uptrade'. If I wanted to make like for like exchanges, I could just do that internally with Marriott's DC program or Florida Club and not even need an II membership.

I have no problem paying II a $129 exchange fee for a Studio to 3BR. However, I will not pay $306 ($129+$177 Upgrade Fee) per exchange which is what II now wants to charge me to do the same thing.

For us, II just killed most of it's value (unless a convenient flex-change opportunity to uptrade arises). Since our current membership is pre-paid for a few more years, we'll see what happens.

For that amount of money, I would just assume save my week and shop for a getaway instead (which denies II another deposit and 2 potential exchange fees they could have collected from me and the member who makes an exchange into my deposited unit.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[dioxide45]

Here's were I got the $7 increase, maybe I'm missing something since I've never owned a lock-off and am only now trying our first weeks system trade with an ongoing search:

Before fee was implemented: MF = $1400; split the lock-off and get 14 nights; That's $100/night for two weeks of lodging

After fee was implemented: MF=$1400; split the lock-off and get 14 nights; Plus new upgrade fee = $99; Total cost of two weeks = $1499; That's $107/night.

(Obviously, a two level upgrade would be $1598 or $114/night, but my impression was that in the previous world before the fee, two-step upgrades were less frequent than one step.)

So I'm not looking at just the exchange fees, I'm looking at the total cost of the trips that can be received from the ownership. Also, if the owner is enrolled, I assume the only fee is the upgrade fee (plus the MF, of course).

You are only applying the upgrade cost to one of the weeks. You want to upgrade all 14 of those nights, you have to pay two of the $99 fees. Not just one. If you are using one of the sides of the lock off for home use, then yes, the upgrade fee is only $7 a night, but you are still only upgrading one of those weeks. So you should still be dividing it by seven nights.

 

[kds4]

The upgrade fee works out to anywhere from $14 per night up to $44 per night, depending on how many steps up you do. So not sure why you are only adding $7 a night for the added cost. For Gold and Platinum II members, the fee is a little less, though you also have to pay to upgrade to those levels. I suspect the fee to upgrade to those levels will go up now that they get a pretty good discount on the upgrade fees.

Does it really change the whole exchange economic model. To an extent, I think it does if you were used to upgrading a 2BR lock off in to two 2BR units. What used to cost about $268 in the past now costs $565 today. That is a 90% increase in their exchange fees, literally overnight!

Think about the system as it is currently implemented. A 1BR Hawaii owner books a June week for exchange. They deposit it in to II. That owner gets a 2BR Orlando week in September. It cost them $134+99=$233. That Orlando owner uses their 2BR to exchange in to that same 1BR Hawaii week the other owner gave up. They get the week even Steven. No reimbursement for the downgrade.

If II really wanted to protect owners of 2BR and larger units, they would institute some kind of credit system. Downgrade and perhaps get the upgrade fee as a credit to use toward a later upgrade. Perhaps even knock $10 off the amount they credit to give II something. At least it would be something and it would help to spur more 2BR deposits in to II.

This is the point I was trying to make. For me, the new fee discourages me from depositing my weeks with II. I have enough already on deposit for the next couple of years to play with and see if the no fee flexchange uptrade option is viable, but if it's not then I don't expect to be making any more deposits going forward (and we were depositing 2BR and 3BR units).

 

[kds4]

I think MVC is happy with this change. They no longer will have to hear potential point buyers tell them about their studio exchanges for 2BR villas.

I agree. This will likely drive us straight back into the arms of Marriott, which is where they prefer owners go for internal exchanges anyway instead of II.

I hope MVCI sends II a 'Thank-You' note at least.

 

[JIMinNC]

You are only applying the upgrade cost to one of the weeks. You want to upgrade all 14 of those nights, you have to pay two of the $99 fees. Not just one. If you are using one of the sides of the lock off for home use, then yes, the upgrade fee is only $7 a night, but you are still only upgrading one of those weeks. So you should still be dividing it by seven nights.

But, if you split a 2BR lock-off into a 1BR and a studio; and traded for two 1BR units, you would only pay $99 once. So in that case you're still getting two trades for $1499 ($107/nt). I agree if you upgrade both parts of the unit into a 2BR and a 1BR the cost rises to $1598 ($114/nt). As you've noted, it's even higher if you do more than a one-level upgrade, so I agree that it's a range of cost differentials depending on how many upgrades you do and how many steps you take up.

Still, when you factor in the fully-loaded cost, including the MF, while the cost does go up, the overall economics still seems relatively attractive. The economics are not as good as before the change, but it doesn't seem to me that this one change has destroyed the value of trading lock-offs - if you consider the total costs of the vacations you get.

I do agree that since there is no corresponding credit for a down-trade, it's sort of a one way street, but this isn't the first change or fee to have that characteristic. That is one thing I like about the Point system - you "pay" for up-trades and get the benefit of taking a down-trade.

 

[hangloose]

I'm not sure what I'm missing, but to me, the statements that this dramatically changes the economic model or causes someone to want to sell their units seems a bit overdone.

Most Marriott maintenance fees for 2BR or 3BR units are $1200 to $1500 per year. This change adds $99 for a one level upgrade. So instead of getting two 7 night trades for $85 to $107 per night, the cost becomes $92 to $114 per night. It's an increase, yes, but I don't see how it totally changes the economic model of using a lock-off to get two-for-one trades.

I think there are many different things that play into what level of impact the new 'upgrade level' fees have on an individual MVC owner. Some it may have little to no impact based on their usage patterns, while others it may have a larger impact. Some may say this is more 'fair', while others may say 'unfair'. I can see both sides. For me personally, it will certainly change how I have been using my weeks in past years....not towards the positive.

I own two 2-bedroom Marriott Grande Vista weeks. Since enrolling in the DC Pts program, we have been locking off and exchanging through II without additional fees (lock-off, exchange, etc). This has really made our annual maintenance fees/club dues (~$2,700 total for both weeks) go a long way from a value perspective. Very attractive to us.

In the past three years, we have had 9 II exchanges into other MVC resorts with 13 total 'upgrade levels'. Not one of my exchanges was for a same size villa. Some were exchanging a studio into a 3-bedroom (3 upgrade levels). While some may say that is unfair, I would say that hard work paid off in fair trades based on villa size, season, and availability. As an enrolled owner with no additional exchange fees beyond club dues, this would have costed me $1,287 more or $144 per exchange. If I do 4 exchanges in 1 year, that is on average $576 more at the same annual rate. It will not break the bank, but is not an insignificant amount either. My II exchanges will still provide solid value, just not as great of a bargain as before. Others may be better off or worse than me, but I expect many usage patterns to change based on this 'upgrade fee'...especially for those who aren't enrolled and still paying II membership, lock-off fees, exchange fees, and now upgrade fees.

 

[JIMinNC]

Does it really change the whole exchange economic model. To an extent, I think it does if you were used to upgrading a 2BR lock off in to two 2BR units. What used to cost about $268 in the past now costs $565 today. That is a 90% increase in their exchange fees, literally overnight!

As you say, your example is a 90% increase in the just exchange fees, but I think that paints an incomplete picture. I think the appropriate way to look at it is what does that lodging actually cost you - the total cost including maintenance fees.

Let's say that your 2BR lock-off has a maintenance fee of about $1300. You said upgrading to two 2BR units previously cost $268 (I assume you are assuming a non-enrolled owner). That means the two vacations used to cost you $1568. After the fees, using your new cost of $565, the total cost goes up to $1865. Going from $1568 to $1865 is only a 19% increase in the cost. That's the real impact of the change on your bottom line lodging cost.

A 19% increase isn't insignificant, of course, but does such an increase really alter the overall financial viability to the point that trading no longer makes sense? If I owned a lock-off and had been used to getting it all for free, I would probably grumble about the fee too, but to me, it doesn't really seem to be THAT big of a deal.

 

[JIMinNC]

I think there are many different things that play into what level of impact the new 'upgrade level' fees have on an individual MVC owner. Some it may have little to no impact based on their usage patterns, while others it may have a larger impact. Some may say this is more 'fair', while others may say 'unfair'. I can see both sides. For me personally, it will certainly change how I have been using my weeks in past years....not towards the positive.

I own two 2-bedroom Marriott Grande Vista weeks. Since enrolling in the DC Pts program, we have been locking off and exchanging through II without additional fees (lock-off, exchange, etc). This has really made our annual maintenance fees/club dues (~$2,700 total for both weeks) go a long way from a value perspective. Very attractive to us.

In the past three years, we have had 9 II exchanges into other MVC resorts with 13 total 'upgrade levels'. Not one of my exchanges was for a same size villa. Some were exchanging a studio into a 3-bedroom (3 upgrade levels). While some may say that is unfair, I would say that hard work paid off in fair trades based on villa size, season, and availability. As an enrolled owner with no additional exchange fees beyond club dues, this would have costed me $1,287 more or $144 per exchange. If I do 4 exchanges in 1 year, that is on average $576 more at the same annual rate. It will not break the bank, but is not an insignificant amount either. My II exchanges will still provide solid value, just not as great of a bargain as before. Others may be better off or worse than me, but I expect many usage patterns to change based on this 'upgrade fee'...especially for those who aren't enrolled and still paying II membership, lock-off fees, exchange fees, and now upgrade fees.

But as I noted in my reply to dioxide45, the cost increase looks a little less impactful when looked at in terms of the overall cost of the lodging, including maintenance fees. For the three years in your example, your $2700 annual maintenance fees for the two Grande Vista weeks totals $8100. The upgrade fees would add $1287, representing about a 16% increase. Your total costs go from $8100 to $9387 (about $400/year). Again, a significant jump, but is it really a game changer?

 

[dioxide45]

As you say, your example is a 90% increase in the just exchange fees, but I think that paints an incomplete picture. I think the appropriate way to look at it is what does that lodging actually cost you - the total cost including maintenance fees.

Let's say that your 2BR lock-off has a maintenance fee of about $1300. You said upgrading to two 2BR units previously cost $268 (I assume you are assuming a non-enrolled owner). That means the two vacations used to cost you $1568. After the fees, using your new cost of $565, the total cost goes up to $1865. Going from $1568 to $1865 is only a 19% increase in the cost. That's the real impact of the change on your bottom line lodging cost.

A 19% increase isn't insignificant, of course, but does such an increase really alter the overall financial viability to the point that trading no longer makes sense? If I owned a lock-off and had been used to getting it all for free, I would probably grumble about the fee too, but to me, it doesn't really seem to be THAT big of a deal.

I don't disagree overall. Of course a 20% increase overnight in anything isn't going to be easy to swallow. We will probably get used to it. We might not upgrade our studio to a 2BR any longer and just use it for a 1BR upgrade when it is the two of us. Then still upgrade the 1BR to a 2BR when other travel with us. This really is still cheaper than it was before we enrolled our weeks. We just have the $200 DC annual fee in addition to the new upgrade fees.

My other worry is the reduced availability that may happen in II as a result of this change and if they open up the trade power flood gates. The fee is one thing, if there isn't as much to pick from because those that previously didn't qualify for the exchange can now grab it for an added fee, that is another.

 

[dioxide45]

But depending on what is desired it can still be far cheaper than buying and using regular DC points. Goes without saying I suppose.

I would still agree. Just looked at using DC points for a May 2017 Aruba trip. We currently ahve a 1BR unit confirmed in II and are looking to retrade, which will come with a $59 fee for us. It is still cheaper than using our whole 2BR week plus another half week of points or renting another 1,000 DC points at $500. If we can use our 1BR week for a 2BR Aruba, the cost would be half our MF along with the upgrade fee of $59. Much cheaper than the DC alternative. Just have to see how the inventory pans out.

 

[GregT]

My other worry is the reduced availability that may happen in II as a result of this change and if they open up the trade power flood gates. The fee is one thing, if there isn't as much to pick from because those that previously didn't qualify for the exchange can now grab it for an added fee, that is another.

Dioxide, I agree with your comments here. The fee is annoying, however if inventory gets adversely impacted, that will be a major loss. It will be interesting to see if people really do leave II, or ultimately reconcile themselves that this is the best option for their Marriott weeks, even if it's now different.

Best,

Greg

 

[dioxide45]

Dioxide, I agree with your comments here. The fee is annoying, however if inventory gets adversely impacted, that will be a major loss. It will be interesting to see if people really do leave II, or ultimately reconcile themselves that this is the best option for their Marriott weeks, even if it's now different.

Best,

Greg

I don't see many people taking their Marriott weeks over to RCI. There are very few dual affiliated resorts anyway. Some may sell back through Marriott or sell their Marriott weeks outright if they don't think the economics work for them now.

I certainly didn't buy our two weeks to spend four in Orlando. Though I do love Orlando. We will just budget the fee in to our annual vacation budget, perhaps taking it out of somewhere else. perhaps another meal or two in instead of dining out. So our vacation dollars will just move from the local restaurants in Orlando to a big corporation in Miami.

It will also be interesting to see how inventory plays out in places like Orlando and Williamsburg where there is always lots of inventory sitting in II. I am sure that this is just about always out there and available for any non Marriott week to grab, with or without the upgrade fee. So it isn't like people will be clamoring to grab those larger 2BR Orlando weeks for a fee if they could have had them before for no extra cost. This might impact beach locations more than areas of over supply. As I say, I can adjust to the added fee, I am more concerned about inventory. If what was a comparable exchange before is different today and you can now grab something that is no longer comparable with just an added fee, that is a game changer.

I think this might also looses up some of the Vidanta availability in RM and NV. A lot of people vie for the Grand Luxxe property, often grabbing larger than they really need, often because there may not be something smaller available. Will people not go for that in the future with the added fee?

 

[JIMinNC]

My other worry is the reduced availability that may happen in II as a result of this change and if they open up the trade power flood gates. The fee is one thing, if there isn't as much to pick from because those that previously didn't qualify for the exchange can now grab it for an added fee, that is another.

I definitely agree with this point. My assumption has been that they were just charging for trades that once were free. But if they reduce the trade power required to qualify for an upgrade in the first place, then I agree that would be a bad thing for availability. If almost any studio could book a 2BR just by paying $198, that really defeats the whole trade power concept. Why would anyone buy a 1BR or 2BR in that case? Just buy a cheap studio somewhere and pay to trade up. That would be a huge paradigm shift.

 

[hangloose]

But as I noted in my reply to dioxide45, the cost increase looks a little less impactful when looked at in terms of the overall cost of the lodging, including maintenance fees. For the three years in your example, your $2700 annual maintenance fees for the two Grande Vista weeks totals $8100. The upgrade fees would add $1287, representing about a 16% increase. Your total costs go from $8100 to $9387 (about $400/year). Again, a significant jump, but is it really a game changer?

In my case, I'd say a 16%+ increase is significant assuming our use pattern remains. If our MVC maintenance fees went up that much, many would likely notice the impact and perhaps even sell their weeks. Whether it's a "game changer", time will tell.

It will however make me think twice before I lock-off and/or exchange in II going forward. I believe II still provides strong value even with the 'upgrade fee'. For my usage needs, it's still likely a better value than exchanging for DC pts. II exchanges may just now require a higher price unfortunately for larger villa sizes, which is not as attractive for those like me seeking optimal value per dollar.

And great points above on II inventory. This is very important and I'll be interested to see how that changes if any at all.

 

[JIMinNC]

I believe II still provides strong value even with the 'upgrade fee'. For my usage needs, it's still likely a better value than exchanging for DC pts. II exchanges may just now require a higher price unfortunately for larger villa sizes, which is not as attractive for those like me seeking optimal value per dollar.

I guess this was sort of my point; the value still seems to be there, even with the fees, just not as much of a value as before.

We'll have more travel flexibility in a little over a year when our youngest heads to college, so it's possible we may want more DC points or more weeks at that point. Doing another hybrid bundle, but built around a Grande Vista lock-off this time, was one option I've played around with on the numbers. I've also given thought to an EOY 2BR lock-off at Maui Ocean Club or a non-lockoff HHI Grande Ocean (either as standalone weeks, not part of a hybrid). I don't THINK these new II fees will necessarily change our strategy there, but it will be interesting to watch in the months/year ahead.