Tragic News at Disney's Grand Floridian

[Saintsfanfl]

Always room for parent shaming. Different time and outcome but a world of criticism. Those who haven't had a close call or a similar tragedy should give thanks every day of their life. Disney has every lawyer within 100 miles on retainer-good luck with a lawsuit. This Time article covered my thoughts.
http://time.com/4352116/cincinnati-zoo-gorilla-harambe-mother/

Do you really think Disney or DVC will take a hard-line stance against this family in a wrongful death suit? I am thinking quite the opposite. Disney is not Wal-Mart. They will take care of the family. If the family pushes hard then they will settle. Doesn't matter how many lawyers they have on retainer this one is never going to see a civil trial. That would be very bad PR and Disney would easily lose anyway. This is a very high profile story and anything putting Disney in a negative light in a contest with the family will cost them far more.

There is a difference between extreme gross negligence and some level of culpability in a wrongful death suit. Like Dioxide said nobody is directly to blame here. It was an act of nature. But our civil system is set up to assign percentages of fault to various parties. Right or wrong that is just the way it is.

 

[swsc16]

So devastating, and I still can't get it off my mind thinking of this family's horrific tragedy.

 

[swsc16]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask this question (but also trying to avoid making a new thread for a similar topic).......

Going to Fort Lauderdale/Miami area in July and we're planning to spend a lot of time in the beach (yes swimming in the ocean). I kinda read that alligators don't live in saltwater? Do I have to worry about any alligators in the Ocean? What other safety precautions do I need to keep in mind for the ocean? I am from Los Angeles, so we frequently go to beach, but I'm just curious what are other special circumstances for Florida beaches? It will be our first time in the area.

Also I'm getting the Go Miami card which includes several Gator attractions - Everglades Alligator farm, Gator Airboat tour. I have a 13yo and 8yo and was initially planning to go to those Gator stuff. I'm hoping those places have enough safety measures? I'm actually thinking we should skip them not just because of worrying for our own safety, but mainly because of the gut-wrenching feeling thinking about what happened to this 2yo boy

Sorry if this seems nonsense questions, but just want to be aware of safety precautions specific to FL.

 

[chalee94]

Do I have to worry about any alligators in the Ocean? What other safety precautions do I need to keep in mind for the ocean? I am from Los Angeles, so we frequently go to beach, but I'm just curious what are other special circumstances for Florida beaches? It will be our first time in the area.

shuffle your feet when walking in the shallows to avoid stepping on a sting ray.

jellyfish and sharks are unlikely, but would be more of a concern than gators.

the Disney story is a sad one but keep in mind that it's one instance in 45 years...

 

[chalee94]

...never going to see a civil trial. That would be very bad PR and Disney would easily lose anyway.

again, this is the 1st instance in 45 years. so I disagree with you.

But we are the nation that sued subway over 11 inch "footlongs" so we'll see how it plays out.

 

[swsc16]

Thanks a lot Charles. I know we should go and enjoy our vacations, not to let this incident affect us, but be very careful and vigilant in everything.
Our 13yo knows of the news, I think he can handle knowing it. But we're not telling our 8yo daughter, she will likely get traumatized specially when she sees a Gator when we go to those Gator attractions.

 

[Quilter]

Do you really think Disney or DVC will take a hard-line stance against this family in a wrongful death suit? I am thinking quite the opposite. Disney is not Wal-Mart. They will take care of the family. If the family pushes hard then they will settle. Doesn't matter how many lawyers they have on retainer this one is never going to see a civil trial. That would be very bad PR and Disney would easily lose anyway. This is a very high profile story and anything putting Disney in a negative light in a contest with the family will cost them far more.

There is a difference between extreme gross negligence and some level of culpability in a wrongful death suit. Like Dioxide said nobody is directly to blame here. It was an act of nature. But our civil system is set up to assign percentages of fault to various parties. Right or wrong that is just the way it is.

Tragic news.

Look at the universities contributing to this website: http://icwdm.org/handbook/reptiles/Alligators.asp

Here's a couple quotes from the page:

Exclusion

Alligators are most dangerous in water or at the water’s edge. They occasionally make overland forays in search of new habitat, mates, or prey. Concrete or wooden bulkheads that are a minimum of 3 feet (1 m) above the high water mark will repel alligators along waterways and lakes. Alligators have been documented to climb 5-foot (1.5-m) chain-link fences to get at dogs. Fences at least 5 feet high with 4-inch (10-cm) mesh will effectively exclude larger alligators if the top of the fence is angled outward.

Avoidance

Measures can be taken to avoid confrontations with alligators and substantially reduce the probability of attacks. Avoid swimming or participating in water activities in areas with large alligators. Avoid water activities at dusk and at night during the warmer months when alligators are most active. Alligators can quickly surge at least 5 feet (1.5 m) onto the shore to seize prey, so care should be taken when at the water’s edge. Do not feed alligators. Avoid approaching nests and capturing young (2 feet [0.6 m]) alligators.

It seems negligent that the resort would host an event on the beach during times when they should actually be warning guests to stay away from the beach. There should be "Beach Closed at dusk due to increased alligator activity".

I grew up in Florida and that beach looks very much like ones where I sunbathed and swam. Increased evening activity of alligators wasn't something I knew even though we frequently vacation in Florida and SC. While I don't know I'd be wading in the water, the drop off signs wouldn't deter me because I'm a capable swimmer. It would be my knowledge and concern for moccasins that would be a deterrent. That beach wouldn't necessarily cause me as much concern as other lagoons. I wouldn't be as suspect of an alligator attack because of the inviting grooming of the water's edge.

Saintsfanfl you mentioned Lakeshore Reserve in another post. Now there's a lot of water's edge I watch closely. It's grassy and sometimes brushy and has signage. There is a corner we have to walk when we come back from dinner at the JW. It's down by where the zip line used to be. Very dark and I have always been edgy anticipating an alligator lungeing out of the brush or a snake warming itself on the path.

On a slightly connected thought, we were at the Desert Ridge JW in Phoenix. Waiting for a table at one of their outdoor restaurants I see a toddler playing around in the rock mulch of a plant bed. The resort has many people from the Midwest during March for Spring Training. I tap the mom and caution her that scorpions and Black Widows come out at night and she shouldn't let her baby play in the landscaping. Watching for desert bugs wasn't on her mind, getting dinner was.

 

[Quilter]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask this question (but also trying to avoid making a new thread for a similar topic).......

Going to Fort Lauderdale/Miami area in July and we're planning to spend a lot of time in the beach (yes swimming in the ocean). I kinda read that alligators don't live in saltwater? Do I have to worry about any alligators in the Ocean? What other safety precautions do I need to keep in mind for the ocean? I am from Los Angeles, so we frequently go to beach, but I'm just curious what are other special circumstances for Florida beaches? It will be our first time in the area.

Also I'm getting the Go Miami card which includes several Gator attractions - Everglades Alligator farm, Gator Airboat tour. I have a 13yo and 8yo and was initially planning to go to those Gator stuff. I'm hoping those places have enough safety measures? I'm actually thinking we should skip them not just because of worrying for our own safety, but mainly because of the gut-wrenching feeling thinking about what happened to this 2yo boy

Sorry if this seems nonsense questions, but just want to be aware of safety precautions specific to FL.

You will be around many intercoastal areas that are brackish water (mix of salt and fresh). Alligators can be found in brackish as well as sharks.

You may already know this because you're from the Pacific but don't go in ocean's edge at night. Like alligators, sharks feed at night and come in close to shore.

 

[dioxide45]

Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve has water between it and the golf course and it has plenty of gators. They have "no feeding" signs. If they put a nice sandy beach on their shoreline I think it would invite potential problems but I guess it is easy to say after this tragic incident just happened.

I have seen a gator swimming in one of the lakes at the Grand Lakes property. It was up at the JW. It was way out in the water, but they don't stick to the water. There were lots of warning signs just as they have at Grande Vista. I believe I have seen the signs at all of the Orlando Marriott properties around the lakes.

 

[Quilter]

I have seen a gator swimming in one of the lakes at the Grand Lakes property. It was up at the JW. It was way out in the water, but they don't stick to the water. There were lots of warning signs just as they have at Grande Vista. I believe I have seen the signs at all of the Orlando Marriott properties around the lakes.

Are there groomed beaches on lagoons that invite sunbathing and evening gatherings at most of the big Orlando resorts? Isn't there a beach area at Cypress Harbour? I think it's the same body of water that surrounds the wild area with the boardwalk with warning signs for multiple species.

 

[dioxide45]

Are there groomed beaches on lagoons that invite sunbathing and evening gatherings at most of the big Orlando resorts? Isn't there a beach area at Cypress Harbour? I think it's the same body of water that surrounds the wild area with the boardwalk with warning signs for multiple species.

I don't know about Cypress Harbour, but Grande Vista has a groomed beach on the water. They also have evening activities like campfires and gatherings. The beach there is protected from the water by a white fence which you can see in this photo.

 

[JimMIA]

Going to Fort Lauderdale/Miami area in July and we're planning to spend a lot of time in the beach (yes swimming in the ocean). I kinda read that alligators don't live in saltwater? Do I have to worry about any alligators in the Ocean?

NO.

What other safety precautions do I need to keep in mind for the ocean?

Depending on where you are swimming, watch out for the currents. Riptides are much worse in January-February than in the summer, but you still need to be aware of currents possibly carrying you some distance from where you want to go. Also pay attention if there are any warnings at the lifeguard stations. The waters are usually calm in the summer, but summer is also jellyfish and Man-O-War season.

Also I'm getting the Go Miami card which includes several Gator attractions - Everglades Alligator farm, Gator Airboat tour.

Not quite sure what you mean here. The Everglades Alligator farm has a pretty big facility near Homestead, FL, about 40 miles or so SW from Miami. They also have an airboat ride there...which is pretty expensive, I think.

You should not be paying more than $30 per person for airboat tours, most of which are 30-40 minutes. Anything longer than that is a waste of money -- they'll just drive you around in circles and you won't know the difference.

However, there is another airboat place, Gator Park, which is on US 41 west of Miami -- about 50 miles from the alligator farm, and much closer to Ft. Lauderdale than the farm. If your coupon is for Gator Park, I would pass because of their safety record. They've got a bunch of young hotdogs driving there and their safety record leaves much to be desired. They also feed alligators and other wildlife, which is illegal. They're soon going to become concessionaires of the National Park Service, and when that happens (if anybody's got the backbone), they will be out of business or under new management.

I'd go a few (3-4) miles further west on US 41 to Everglades Safari Park, or 10 miles further west to the Miccosukee Indian Village airboat rides. I've taken people on both, and both are very good.

All of the airboat places have the required safety equipment on their boats. But the problem is not life vests, it's the person behind the wheel -- or in the case of airboats, on the stick. The driver makes the difference.

Everglades Safari will give you a smooth ride into a very pretty part of Everglades National Park, in a big boat which is very stable and smooth, driven by a guide who knows what they are doing. I don't work for them, but I can tell you that when the Park Service takes VIPs on tours, they take them there.

Forget alligators and the horrible tragedy at WDW. You will probably see alligators (maybe not, they're very spread out in July), but they are nothing to worry about in an airboat. Nothing will hurt you in an airboat, with the possible exception of getting hit by a horsefly as you roar through the prairie at 30+ MPH.

 

[Helios]

Very sad story.

Is this the same water body where Disney is building the over the water DVC units?

 

[littlestar]

Very sad story.

Is this the same water body where Disney is building the over the water DVC units?

Yep.

When we were at Marriott last month in Orlando, we noticed all the signs about alligators. I wonder when Marriott put in their signage - was it after the snake incident at Lakeshore?

 

[Lisa P]

We've seen the signs by water at many Orlando resorts going many years back, with alligator images, either warning people not to enter the water or not to feed gators. For example, at least 15 years ago, we saw them at the HGVC at Sea World. It startled me because our kids were younger and I had not realized how common gators were in populated areas. But there they were, two small gators in the little pond, just beyond the end of a little pier jutting out into the pond. Then we enjoyed looking for them once we got past the initial concern.

Wyndham Cypress Palms has always had similar signs with an alligator image, around the fountain pond there. Again, our kids got a kick out of them, hamming it up in pictures taken next to the signs. Given the international crowd that visits the area, those gator image signs are so appropriate. I've seen them at multiple other resorts in Florida and South Carolina. Never really thought about the fact that Disney didn't have them.

 

[Bunk]

The New York Post has run a series of articles about this:

One prior guest said that in 1988 when he was 8 years old he was bitten by an alligator near Fort Wilderness Resort.
http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/i-was-attacked-by-an-alligator-at-disney-world/

The father of the victim who tried to rescue his son was a former championship wrestler:
http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/tough-as-nails-dad-tried-to-fight-off-gator-attack/

The parents issued a statement:
http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/shock-and-grief-tots-parents-speak-out-on-fatal-gator-attack/

There was a prior warning that guests at Bora Bora Bungalow were feeding the alligators.
http://nypost.com/2016/06/17/disney-ignored-gator-problem-to-keep-high-end-guests-happy-report/

There are videos posted on youtube showing alligators within Disneyworld
http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/disney-world-is-crawling-with-alliggators-see-for-yourself/

Discussion of alligator attacks in Florida
http://nypost.com/2016/06/15/alligators-are-everywhere-in-florida/

Disney has a program of removal of alligators:
http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/gators-routinely-removed-from-lagoon-where-toddler-was-attacked/

 

[Ty1on]

Do you really think Disney or DVC will take a hard-line stance against this family in a wrongful death suit? I am thinking quite the opposite. Disney is not Wal-Mart. They will take care of the family. If the family pushes hard then they will settle. Doesn't matter how many lawyers they have on retainer this one is never going to see a civil trial. That would be very bad PR and Disney would easily lose anyway. This is a very high profile story and anything putting Disney in a negative light in a contest with the family will cost them far more.

There is a difference between extreme gross negligence and some level of culpability in a wrongful death suit. Like Dioxide said nobody is directly to blame here. It was an act of nature. But our civil system is set up to assign percentages of fault to various parties. Right or wrong that is just the way it is.

I agree with you I think they will do everything they can to keep this out of the courts and get it off the front page as fast as possible. I also think they will make policy changes that their PR will try to push to the front page.

 

[ace2000]

Here's a good story to get everyone up to date. Discusses the potential lawsuit (which most FL legal experts agree that Disney will be paying) and the fact that another resort actually had people that consistently fed the gators on a beach close by.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...reveals-install-warning-signs-near-water.html

 

[rapmarks]

feeding the gators, oh yes. We have friends that bought a villa on a small lake (we would call a pond) and fed the gators every day when they were there. Despite the signs. I remember my brother in law visiting and thinking I was putting him on when I said that there were gators in the lakes. They move fast too, wish I could find the picture my neighbor took of an alligator coming out of the pond behind his house, crossing the street, and then walking behind my house and toward another pond.

 

[SMHarman]

feeding the gators, oh yes. We have friends that bought a villa on a small lake (we would call a pond) and fed the gators every day when they were there. Despite the signs. I remember my brother in law visiting and thinking I was putting him on when I said that there were gators in the lakes. They move fast too, wish I could find the picture my neighbor took of an alligator coming out of the pond behind his house, crossing the street, and then walking behind my house and atoward another pond.

I posted something similar to this thought on Facebook.

Rather than parent shaming, all those that have been feeding the alligators should be the ones feeling really guilty right now.

That feeding desensitized the alligators to human contact and had them start thinking of humans and human space as a source of food. Similarly the don't feed the wild bears signs and knowledge on the north east coast and other parts of the country is there for a reason to keep the Bears away from the humans.

The humans that fed alogators or left food on this beach have a lot to be thankful for that it was not them.

 

[davidvel]

again, this is the 1st instance in 45 years. so I disagree with you.

But we are the nation that sued subway over 11 inch "footlongs" so we'll see how it plays out.

Didn't Subway win?

 

[clifffaith]

I've got to say that I would never have interpreted "No Swimming" along a Disney shoreline as no walking on the shore with my feet in the water.

About 10 years ago we visited a wild habitat/park not too far from a resort in Hilton Head. We'd parked and were starting to walk toward the habitat (this was in May) and some people finishing up their visit said "there is an alligator". So we were walking along the grassy shoreline looking in the water. Eventually we happened to look up ahead of us and found we were within yards of tripping over a HUGE alligator that was resting on the grass. I think the water way curved slightly which caused our line of sight to look further ahead. I've always wondered how close we would have come before noticing him if the stream hadn't curved.

 

[VegasBella]

Many parents are sharing images of their own children playing on that same beach to show why Lane's parents might have felt it was safe to let him play on the beach and wade into the water. Here's an example:

See more pics and read story of pics: https://www.buzzfeed.com/morganshan...graves-parents?utm_term=.pr1bVk8vW#.ohrQXB7zZ

 

[am1]

Many parents are sharing images of their own children playing on that same beach to show why Lane's parents might have felt it was safe to let him play on the beach and wade into the water. Here's an example:

See more pics and read story of pics: https://www.buzzfeed.com/morganshan...graves-parents?utm_term=.pr1bVk8vW#.ohrQXB7zZ

How many pictures are at night?

 

[davidvel]

Many parents are sharing images of their own children playing on that same beach to show why Lane's parents might have felt it was safe to let him play on the beach and wade into the water. Here's an example:

See more pics and read story of pics: https://www.buzzfeed.com/morganshan...graves-parents?utm_term=.pr1bVk8vW#.ohrQXB7zZ

Clearly, all of those parents and children should be rounded up and restrained. Lock the parents up for being so neglectful, as multiple Monday morning social media backs have declared that the child' parents are at fault. Send the kids to foster care where they will be safer.

These parents (and even worse parents that allow this at night) are obviously too concerned about their own fun to care about their children, and despite knowing that there are hungry gators all over the pond ready to leap and snatch their kid, don't care, and leave their kids there to be taken.

Sincerely,
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