Newbie deciding between WKV, SDO, non-Starwood, or no TS at all?

[sb74]

I've lurked for the past week, reading all the FAQs/stickys and spending some time digging around II, Redweek, eBay, etc. Really grateful for all the useful information on TUG, especially those threads that lay out so clearly the pros/cons of owning certain TS. Even with all my research, I'm still stuck on which ownership route to pursue if any. My hope is that, by saying more about our past, present, and future travel tastes/patterns, the more experienced folks here can help guide me further.

Wife and I are in our 30s and have a six month-old. Before he was born, we tried to squeeze in as much world travel as possible. Our trips mostly ranged from weekend getaways to a week in the same country but spending at most 2-4 days in the same city -- neither of us had traveled much before meeting each other, and wanted as many different experiences as we could. Mostly major cities, but some resorts too (Kauai, Bora Bora, Maldives, southern Greece). I've been a happy SPG plat since 2010 and our trips are usually planned around trying the best properties that Starwood has to offer. But with parenthood, this approach is no longer practical, and vacations with one "home base" is likely our future.

My interest in buying a TS, like many folks here, is purely to trade up and with the maximum value, but with low-ish MFs.

WKV Platinum seemed like the right choice, as I liked the idea of having a large chunk of StarOptions and the flexibility to book a week, but also fewer days with ease and confirmation right away. The downside is that we don't see ourselves loving any of the SVOs apart from WPORV. Maybe we'd try WSJ, HR, or Broadway once, but we don't foresee repeat visits to any other SVO property. And of course the resale buy-in is high though we can afford it.

Then I looked at SDO and trading through II. The low buy-in and potential flexibility to exchange around the world with a valuable TS in hand was very appealing. But I'm still somewhat resistant to the idea of vacationing in one week chunks, and it sounds like the Short Stay exchange market can be thin, especially in the cities where I envision repeat visits most often -- NYC, San Francisco, Paris, Barcelona, London, Southern CA.

Then I spent some time looking at buying non-Starwood and exchanging through RCI or SFX, which supposedly have more options, but unless I sampled the wrong threads it still sounds like the market for exchanging into cities like the ones above is not super-great.

Maybe the right move is just to forgo TS altogether? Though as our son gets older (and if we have a second kid) hotels may not be the best or cost-effective choice long-term. We're not really in any hurry to buy, and our trips through next spring are booked, so I still have time to reassess any or all the assumptions laid out above.

Sorry for the long-windedness and if these questions should've been posted in one of the more general forums, but given my SPG history and focus on two specific SVO properties, this seemed like the best place. Thanks in advance for your insights!

 

[Sloane S]

But I'm still somewhat resistant to the idea of vacationing in one week chunks,

In my opinion, you don't want Starwood or Marriott then. I'd look to Wyndham. We primarily use our Wyn points for long weekends, and our Starwoods for week long trips.

Though as our son gets older (and if we have a second kid) hotels may not be the best or cost-effective choice long-term.

Hotels definitely won't be the most cost effective way to vacation with a family of four, especially if you factor in meal costs you can save on by preparing them in your unit.

If you're not in a hurry to buy, just rent some Wyndham points from an owner.

 

[lizap]

If you want Westin quality, I would not buy Wyndham. Properties are inconsistent in quality and overall not as luxurious as Westin. If you want to continue the type of travelling you have done in the past (locations and time frame), I'm not sure TSs are for you at this point. I know for us when we were at a similar point in the early part of our marriage, TSs were not a good fit. Now if you decide that you would be happy travelling to one location and using that as a base, that might change things.

In my opinion, you don't want Starwood or Marriott then. I'd look to Wyndham. We primarily use our Wyn points for long weekends, and our Starwoods for week long trips.



Hotels definitely won't be the most cost effective way to vacation with a family of four, especially if you factor in meal costs you can save on by preparing them in your unit.

If you're not in a hurry to buy, just rent some Wyndham points from an owner.

 

[vacationhopeful]

Wait until you experience several trips lugging 3 or 4 bags of necessary "kid's stuff" plus your bag(s) for your adult clothes. One week chunks will look very appealing verses moving in for 2 night stays. Or where you need a refrigerator for baby/toddler food & drinks. Or where you need a washer/dryer for baby clothes (or your clothes) when the food doesn't agree with the little one. Or that sofa in the LR, so at least one of you can drive the car without falling asleep at the wheel.

Etc. Etc.

 

[lizap]

This is an excellent point, although we travelled with our daughter from a very early age, staying in hotels (not at any one for very long), really all over the world. Easy, no, but it can be done..

Wait until you experience several trips lugging 3 or 4 bags of necessary "kid's stuff" plus your bag(s) for your adult clothes. One week chunks will look very appealing verses moving in for 2 night stays. Or where you need a refrigerator for baby/toddler food & drinks. Or where you need a washer/dryer for baby clothes (or your clothes) when the food doesn't agree with the little one. Or that sofa in the LR, so at least one of you can drive the car without falling asleep at the wheel.

Etc. Etc.

 

[sjsharkie]

Since you already have your upcoming trips booked, you may want to wait before buying. There is no rush -- timeshares have been around for a long time and they will continue to be there when you are ready.

As a parent of a 2+ year old, I can attest to the fact that your vacation needs will change. They will continue to change throughout your life -- I can trade now during shoulder and off-season to Hawaii, but this will not likely be possible once my daughter turns 5.

IMHO, you should write down a list of the places you want to go on a consistent basis and other vacation requirements (e.g., short trips or week-long trips, view important or not, etc.) Based on that, you can get some advice as to what to buy into. SVO is great, but it does not have any of the locations listed in your laundry list except Southern California. Wyndham's quality is not as consistent so you may not be as happy at one property as you are at another.

Good luck.

-ryan

 

[sb74]

Ugh, duplicate post...sorry.

 

[sb74]

Thanks to all for confirming my thoughts in some areas, and challenging me in others. While I can clearly wait to buy, if the SVO resale values may be rising in the next few years with an improved economy (obviously no one has a crystal ball on this point), it seems wise to at least have something in hand sooner rather than later, no?

That said, recognizing that the "shorter trips in large cities" approach is likely unsustainable in the long run, what if we went a hybrid route, where if we planned around two major trips per year, one of them was stay in one place while the other was more like our old style? Sprinkle in the occasional weekend getaway here and there (my parents live in the area and are happy to babysit their grandson for those). I still intend to stay enough at SPG properties through work and cheap mattress runs and supplement with SPG AMEX spend to have enough points for redemption in cities on my laundry list.

In that case, I could see buying Platinum 1BR WKV, as it would still give me enough flexibility with StarOptions to visit Kauai once every few years and try some of the other SVOs too, and then in the years where we don't, I'd reserve/rent home base for March and at least cover the MF and maybe more to recoup partially the initial buy-in? Or is SDO/II trade the better route, if I've committed to at least one week-long trip per year? View is not important either way.

I took a look at Wyndham just now, and it seems like the points required for NYC and other major cities seems so steep that I'm better off just booking SPG either on points/cheapest cash rate and apply suite nights as a plat.

 

[lizap]

Well, I obviously like the WKV 2BR plat. route since I just purchased one. If you strategically plan your vacations, you will definitely recoup your cost in several years. But, it's hard to argue with the trader route too. Really a matter of preference. But, I would not buy a WKV plat. to use as a trader in II; too expensive.

Thanks to all for confirming my thoughts in some areas, and challenging me in others. While I can clearly wait to buy, if the SVO resale values may be rising in the next few years with an improved economy (obviously no one has a crystal ball on this point), it seems wise to at least have something in hand sooner rather than later, no?

That said, recognizing that the "shorter trips in large cities" approach is likely unsustainable in the long run, what if we went a hybrid route, where if we planned around two major trips per year, one of them was stay in one place while the other was more like our old style? I still intend to stay enough at SPG properties through work and cheap mattress runs and supplement with SPG AMEX spend to have enough points for redemption in cities on my laundry list.

In that case, I could see buying Platinum 1BR WKV, as it would still give me enough flexibility with StarOptions to visit Kauai once every few years and try some of the other SVOs too, and then in the years where we don't, I'd reserve/rent home base for March and at least cover the MF and maybe more to recoup partially the initial buy-in? Or is SDO/II trade the better route, if I've committed to at least one week-long trip per year? View is not important either way.

I took a look at Wyndham just now, and it seems like the points required for NYC and other major cities seems so steep that I'm better off just booking SPG either on points/cheapest cash rate and apply suite nights as a plat.

 

[sjsharkie]

In that case, I could see buying Platinum 1BR WKV, as it would still give me enough flexibility with StarOptions to visit Kauai once every few years and try some of the other SVOs too, and then in the years where we don't, I'd reserve/rent home base for March and at least cover the MF and maybe more to recoup partially the initial buy-in? Or is SDO/II trade the better route, if I've committed to at least one week-long trip per year? View is not important either way.

It depends when you are traveling, and it you are OK with staying only in Princeville when you visit Kauai. Remember that Princeville is a bit rainier than south shore Kauai (Poipu).

The WKV will work -- you can definitely rent for more than maintenance fees at the current time.

SDO will work but only if you are flexible when traveling. Summer at WPORV is tough -- usually there is a bulk bank for late August, but there was none this year. Likely owners or SO traders are booking more and more of the prime season weeks reducing availability to trade.

Good luck.

-ryan

 

[lizap]

Good points. If you are wanting to travel to other Starwood properties during peak times, you'er better off buying a mandatory Starwood resale such as WKV. Specifically, as it relates to you, your odds are better getting Kauai properties using StarOptions, especially during peak and shoulder times.

It depends when you are traveling, and it you are OK with staying only in Princeville when you visit Kauai. Remember that Princeville is a bit rainier than south shore Kauai (Poipu).

The WKV will work -- you can definitely rent for more than maintenance fees at the current time.

SDO will work but only if you are flexible when traveling. Summer at WPORV is tough -- usually there is a bulk bank for late August, but there was none this year. Likely owners or SO traders are booking more and more of the prime season weeks reducing availability to trade.

Good luck.

-ryan

 

[DeniseM]

SB74 - Timesharing works best when you can make firm reservation, 8-12 mos. in advance, for a full week. It doesn't sound like that's your style.

That being said, I can almost guarantee that your style is going to change drastically, now that you are a parent. It is a lot more attractive to stay in a full-size condo for a full week, when you have a child or children in tow. Quick get-away weekends can be a major ordeal with all the stuff you have to drag along to keep children happy.

I wouldn't even think about buying anything now - I would rent a timeshare in a few of your favorite locations and see how you like the timeshare experience FIRST.

 

[lizap]

I agree completely with this advice. Denise is right on target, as usual.. But should you decide you want to still buy, you are doing the right thing by asking questions on this forum. I wouldn't rush into anything; having said that, keep in mind that WKV (2BR LO) has increased in price in recent months and I suspect will continue to increase slightly during the rest of the year, if the economy continues to recover.

SB74 - Timesharing works best when you can make firm reservation, 8-12 mos. in advance, for a full week. It doesn't sound like that's your style.

That being said, I can almost guarantee that your style is going to change drastically, now that you are a parent. It is a lot more attractive to stay in a full-size condo for a full week, when you have a child or children in tow. Quick get-away weekends can be a major ordeal with all the stuff you have to drag along to keep children happy.

I wouldn't even think about buying anything now - I would rent a timeshare in a few of your favorite locations and see how you like the timeshare experience FIRST.

 

[SmithOp]

Are there any grandparents involved that may want to travel with you? I ask because that is one reason why we moved in to TS, I wanted to include my father in our vacations as son grew up. We are in CA and Dad is back in Ohio. If they like traveling also you could split the weeks for short 1br stays or overlap days in 2br units.


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[SMHarman]

I agree completely with this advice. Denise is right on target, as usual.. But should you decide you want to still buy, you are doing the right thing by asking questions on this forum. I wouldn't rush into anything; having said that, keep in mind that WKV (2BR LO) has increased in price in recent months and I suspect will continue to increase slightly during the rest of the year, if the economy continues to recover.

Yep but the higher priced TS are usually broker transactions so you must assume you are paying brokerage when you sell a WKV. You probably bought yours through a broker?
That brokerage fee and the MF payments in the time the OP is investigating whether TS is suitable for them will more than offset the price increase that will occur in that time. WKV retail was mid to high 20s.

 

[Ken555]

WKV retail was mid to high 20s.

Err...I think you need to expand upon this statement. Are you referring to developer purchases for platinum 2-beds, or summer weeks? I think we all know plat 2-beds from the dev were a lot more than the mid-high 20s, at least at the end of active sales.

 

[SMHarman]

Mod Pls Delete

 

[SMHarman]

Wife and I are in our 30s and have a six month-old. Before he was born, we tried to squeeze in as much world travel as possible. Our trips mostly ranged from weekend getaways to a week in the same country but spending at most 2-4 days in the same city -- neither of us had traveled much before meeting each other, and wanted as many different experiences as we could. Mostly major cities, but some resorts too (Kauai, Bora Bora, Maldives, southern Greece). I've been a happy SPG plat since 2010 and our trips are usually planned around trying the best properties that Starwood has to offer. But with parenthood, this approach is no longer practical, and vacations with one "home base" is likely our future.

Long haul vacations are a lot less appealing with little ones in tow. Keeping them amused on the 7+ hour flights is not fun and dealing with the jetlag at the other end also detracts from the vacation. Equally weekends in Cities - as mentioned by others - will become less appealing as you won't be seeing the nightlife and during the day you are dealing with stroller and other paraphanalia and subways or busses and general getting around headaches.

I have a 100lb rule for small children. When the child is 10lbs, they need 90lbs of stuff to travel with them (car seat, stroller, diaper bag, daipers, formula, bottles, multiple changes of clothes, etc). At 50lbs the child needs about 50lbs of stuff (carseat, clothes, maybe you can ditch the stroller, probably can ditch the daipers). At 100lbs they can carry their own stuff

This year with a 2.5yr old we plunged into TS. Up until that point a pack and play in a hotel room or her Shrunks travel mattress did fine
http://www.amazon.com/The-Shrunks-T...1375044040&sr=8-3&keywords=child+air+mattress
We bought mandatory as hopefully it gives a better chance of school holiday trades as DD gets older. In the next 4 years we will use whenever to get the best value out of the SVN network.

 

[momeason]

Another very good option is to buy SDO and try trading with it. The price of SDO is less than 1 weeks vacation and they often come with a year's free usage. You can use your SDO to book a week long family vacation each year. Then you can use getaways and bonus weeks for long weekends, may be sometimes without the baby. Just because you pay a ridiculously low price for the week does not mean you have to stay 7 days.
The costs of buying and owning SDO is so low and if you buy the right product...ie 2 bedroom lock off gold, you will most likely be able to sell it if it does not work for you. You will never know if you love timesharing if you do not try it. The fact that you are asking so many questions leads me to believe you would learn how to enjoy your timeshare.
The costs are so low, this does not need to be an either/or proposition. You can take 1-2 timeshare vacations each year and possibly stay in hotels for the big city short stays. SDO also rents well in Spring training time and during the Phoenix open if you have a year you do not want to use your week.
Before long, you will be thinking about where you can go that will keep the child happy and you can have downtime. Big cities do not usually make for a relaxing vacation.

 

[lizap]

Someone at WKV in mgmt. told me that the original developer price for a plat. 2br, lo was in the 30s.

Err...I think you need to expand upon this statement. Are you referring to developer purchases for platinum 2-beds, or summer weeks? I think we all know plat 2-beds from the dev were a lot more than the mid-high 20s, at least at the end of active sales.

 

[Ken555]

Someone at WKV in mgmt. told me that the original developer price for a plat. 2br, lo was in the 30s.

I believe that's correct. There are a number of old threads here with relevant info (I just found one from 2006 which I started that had the current pricing at that time, at the end of active sales, with prices in the 40s...but we all know they artificially increase the price at the end).

I remember that when I bought my WKV Plat 2-bed in 2006 that it was a very good price at $20,500 plus fees on the resale market. Of course, back then MF was well under $1,000 as well...

 

[lizap]

We each have different perspectives; ultimately, only the OP can decide what is best for him and his family. We have one daughter, and travelled pretty extensively with her, starting when she was approx. 3. We did not own a TS, but rather stayed in hotels, usually for 2-4 nights. It worked beautifully for us, perhaps it was our expectations or flexibility, I don't know.. Now as we are in our early to mid 50s and our daughter is finishing college, we don't wish to travel like that anymore. As she marries and has a family, we will be able to invite them to stay with us for free. But, I can see how some might have the opposite view and do it in reverse.

 

[lizap]

I belive she said it was the mid 30s, if I remember correctly.

I believe that's correct. There are a number of old threads here with relevant info (I just found one from 2006 which I started that had the current pricing at that time, at the end of active sales, with prices in the 40s...but we all know they artificially increase the price at the end).

I remember that when I bought my WKV Plat 2-bed in 2006 that it was a very good price at $20,500 plus fees on the resale market. Of course, back then MF was well under $1,000 as well...

 

[Ken555]

Another very good option is to buy SDO and try trading with it. The price of SDO is less than 1 weeks vacation and they often come with a year's free usage.

I think saying SDO "often" includes free usage is not accurate. There are some which include free usage, but more often they do not. We need to consider new timeshares prospects who don't know the ins and outs of this process, and if I was new I would read your post and be disappointed if I can't find one with free usage, etc. I don't look at resales every day, but lately I have been looking at SDO and I haven't found many that include free usage.

I recently gave away a few Starwood weeks. One prospect wanted me to include free usage or else they wouldn't take it, because it was written on TUG that a buyer should be able to get a week for free with free usage (in this case it was SVR). They were quite insistent that they would graciously take the unit off my hands, but only if it was free and included free usage. I laughed. And shortly thereafter I found another buyer who was very happy to get it for free, without asking for free usage. Some buyers want it all, with cake, and expect it to arrive on a silver platter. Setting realistic expectations is always proper, and while it is possible to find SDO with free usage I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Ken555]

I belive she said it was the mid 30s, if I remember correctly.

Again, yes. Original prices were in the 30s during much of the active sales period. At the end, they were in the 40s. This info is all available on TUG.