PCC style companies in europe are creative!

[TUGBrian]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/jan/27/scam-timeshare

although the most interesting part of this article was at the bottom:

Many timeshare companies are now changing their rules in response to new regulations to make it easier for owners to dispose of their timeshares and many have rules about who is eligible to take over ownership, according to Mark Caldicott of the Timeshare Association.

wonder how long itll take for the US developers to catch up with the times.

 

[timeos2]

It is already well underway at many US resorts. They will refuse to transfer to questionable "buyers". I'll bet many more will start doing the same soon.

 

[BocaBum99]

It is already well underway at many US resorts. They will refuse to transfer to questionable "buyers". I'll bet many more will start doing the same soon.

At the end of the day, the resorts cannot withhold transfers to a buyer without setting forth clear and objective criteria that apply equally to all potential new owners and do not violate Fair Housing laws.

I have seen resorts require lots of ID such as driver's license, utility bills and social security cards. Some resorts do not allow transfers to companies. Others (the smart ones) simply take deedbacks for the cost of 1-2 years maintenance fees. One very clever resort put on their estoppel the fact that they do take deedbacks and prefer that to transferring the deed to a company.

It is completely misleading to leave the impression that PCCs cannot be compliant with such rules and complete the transfer anyway. These people are smarter than the resorts. Since many resorts don't get the fact that their best course of action is to just take deedbacks and ask the new buyer to prepay maintenance fees for 1-2 years, the PCCs will continue to thrive. Sooner or later the resorts will figure this out and start implementing these policies.

Instead of demonizing the PCCs, we should demonize the HOAs who need to change their policies which will put the PCCs out of business. Such policies may also put them out of business, but if they cannot create a resort experience worth more than $0 on the open market, then the resort should close down.

 

[TUGBrian]

I was more referring to "making it easier to dispose of the units"...which I read to believe them taking the units back etc.

per my opinion on PCC's and transfer companies....ill just say this.

if your whole business model relies on you lying to and or misleading your customers (despite the outcome), you are scum.

 

[Carolinian]

For the most part, it is the developer controlled resorts that are mostly likely to refuse a deedback and the member-controlled HOA's which are more likely to accept one, although few advertise that fact.

I currently own weeks at three resorts on three continents. All are member-controlled and all accept deedbacks.

RCI's fruit basket turnover of RCI Weeks, when they brought in Points Lite, has led to a lot of dissatisfaction among off and shoulder season members who primarily exchanged. Right after Points Lite was imposed on RCI Weeks, resorts started getting deluged with calls of these members wanting out. The vast majority of them, however, paid their m/f the first full year of Points Lite, and when they found out it was indeed as bad as it looked, many have now deeded back. The number of HOA owned weeks has shot up as a result of this RCI policy. The own to use members are still happy; it is the exchangers who are often seething. This is a challenge for HOA's, but I am not aware of any of them which previously accepted deedbacks changing this policy as a result of this new set of circumstances. Here the problem is not the resort experience for the own to use members, as they are happy with it. The problem is the massive change in the exchange experience that RCI members have been confronted with.

When the PCC's are doing the Viking Ship startegy they, and their clients, are engaging in fraudulent conveyances. I hope that those who do so do get sued for it, both PCC's and their clients, as some timeshare management companies have told Timesharing Today magazine that they plan to do.

At the end of the day, the resorts cannot withhold transfers to a buyer without setting forth clear and objective criteria that apply equally to all potential new owners and do not violate Fair Housing laws.

I have seen resorts require lots of ID such as driver's license, utility bills and social security cards. Some resorts do not allow transfers to companies. Others (the smart ones) simply take deedbacks for the cost of 1-2 years maintenance fees. One very clever resort put on their estoppel the fact that they do take deedbacks and prefer that to transferring the deed to a company.

It is completely misleading to leave the impression that PCCs cannot be compliant with such rules and complete the transfer anyway. These people are smarter than the resorts. Since many resorts don't get the fact that their best course of action is to just take deedbacks and ask the new buyer to prepay maintenance fees for 1-2 years, the PCCs will continue to thrive. Sooner or later the resorts will figure this out and start implementing these policies.

Instead of demonizing the PCCs, we should demonize the HOAs who need to change their policies which will put the PCCs out of business. Such policies may also put them out of business, but if they cannot create a resort experience worth more than $0 on the open market, then the resort should close down.

 

[BocaBum99]

if your whole business model relies on you lying to and or misleading your customers (despite the outcome), you are scum.

I agree with this statement. You should never lie to your customers. As a PCC, you do not need to lie to them. You take a fee for liquidating a timeshare. If you liquidate it as promised, you didn't lie and did the job you promised and earned your fee.

PCCs have gotten a bad name because most of them took short cuts and scammed their clients. They should be fined and serve jail time. Many were just incompetent and it looked like they were scamming them when they just didn't know what they were doing. Others tried to double dip by charging the client and selling it to a buyer at the same time. Lots of bad stuff has transpiring in this part of the timeshare industry.

That said, the upfront fee advertisers are almost always fraudulent. I am happy to see laws that prevent them from operating the way they have. However, you will see that there will be several PCCs that are successfully able to operate in the context of the Timeshare Resale Accountability Act without breaking any laws. That's because earning a fee for liquidating a timeshare is a valuable service worth paying for.

 

[Carolinian]

This is an interesting piece in several regards. The Mindtimeshare guy is closely connected to one of the more sleazy timeshare developers in Spain. You might want to look up the website Mindtimesharetruth.

The term ''timeshare association'' is also a bit misleading, as there are two that purport to represent consumers, TATOC, a long established association of HOA boards which are (mostly) member run, and the TCA, also long established, which represents timeshare owners generally. I am not familiar with the person quoted. Harry Taylor is the CEO of TATOC and Sandy Grey is the president of the TCA. In the last few years, TATOC has climbed in bed with some questionable developers, who have helped finance their timeshare HelpLine which focuses on resale scams but tiptoes lightly when developers are concerned.

Cold calling, and the ''timeshare lawyer scam'' are both big problems in Europe.

 

[BocaBum99]

When the PCC's are doing the Viking Ship startegy they, and their clients, are engaging in fraudulent conveyances. I hope that those who do so do get sued for it, both PCC's and their clients, as some timeshare management companies have told Timesharing Today magazine that they plan to do.

Resorts can certainly spend their resources suing whomever they want whether or not they have a good case. I think you over estimate their ability to successfully prosecute and win a lawsuit. You assume there is a "Viking Ship" strategy in play. You think that because you can't imagine ways to liquidate worthless timeshares without it.

Certainly, the stupid ones will get caught. After all, they are stupid. The smart ones, however, won't be doing anything illegal in the first place, so there is nothing to get caught for.

The resorts have the opportunity to approve or disapprove any transfer they want as long as they have objective criteria that meet Fair Housing Laws.

The HOAs can end the PCC business model simply by taking deedbacks plus 1-2 year future maintenance fees. Most PCCs would be willing to partner with those resorts to take them back for the cost of the transfer fees as many are starting to do now. This, by the way, is the answer. I prefer laws that require it. In the absence of such law, it will happen over time because it is the ONLY long term sustainability plan for the resorts. Unviable timeshare resorts need to be allowed to die, not sucking their owners dry for a resort whose maintenance fees are higher than the rental value of their properties. Hundreds, maybe even thousands of timeshare resorts should be terminated, sold off to the highest bidder and proceeds distributed to owners of record.

I realize that I am in the minority on this topic. However, I am right about it. Timeshare reform starts with the HOA, not with the Attorney General.

 

[Carolinian]

Boca, maybe you ought to be upfront with something you have admitted before and bears on your defense of PCC's. You, in fact, buy some of the inventory you sell in your own timeshare business from PCC's.

PCC's lie regularly, telling people who have good summer weeks that have a decent market value that they are worthless. Telling people that their HOA will not take deedbacks, when in fact they will. Misrepresenting tax law as to loss of value of their timeshare. Some only do POA's from their clients and never actually do a transfer. Many use Viking Ships, which is a fraudulent conveyance.

I agree with this statement. You should never lie to your customers. As a PCC, you do not need to lie to them. You take a fee for liquidating a timeshare. If you liquidate it as promised, you didn't lie and did the job you promised and earned your fee.

PCCs have gotten a bad name because most of them took short cuts and scammed their clients. They should be fined and serve jail time. Many were just incompetent and it looked like they were scamming them when they just didn't know what they were doing. Others tried to double dip by charging the client and selling it to a buyer at the same time. Lots of bad stuff has transpiring in this part of the timeshare industry.

That said, the upfront fee advertisers are almost always fraudulent. I am happy to see laws that prevent them from operating the way they have. However, you will see that there will be several PCCs that are successfully able to operate in the context of the Timeshare Resale Accountability Act without breaking any laws. That's because earning a fee for liquidating a timeshare is a valuable service worth paying for.

 

[Carolinian]

What is happening far too often is PCC's telling timeshare owners that they cannot deed back, and induce the member to pay big bucks, often ~$3K to take the timeshare off their hands, and then the PCC itself deeds it back to the HOA, which the member himself could have done without paying the PCC for the ''service''. This constitutes the criminal felony of Obtaining money or Property by False Pretenses. I would like to see some PCC's being prosecuted criminally for this.

I also remember a post from someone on these boards about a PCC that was demanding that HOA's pay them for weeks they had taken back. PCC's frequently shirk the m/f's.

The HOAs can end the PCC business model simply by taking deedbacks plus 1-2 year future maintenance fees. Most PCCs would be willing to partner with those resorts to take them back for the cost of the transfer fees as many are starting to do now.

 

[BocaBum99]

Boca, maybe you ought to be upfront with something you have admitted before and bears on your defense of PCC's. You, in fact, buy some of the inventory you sell in your own timeshare business from PCC's.

PCC's lie regularly, telling people who have good summer weeks that have a decent market value that they are worthless. Telling people that their HOA will not take deedbacks, when in fact they will. Misrepresenting tax law as to loss of value of their timeshare. Some only do POA's from their clients and never actually do a transfer. Many use Viking Ships, which is a fraudulent conveyance.

Yes, I have bought and sold lots of inventory from PCCs. I would venture to say that so do most of the members on this board. So what?

PCCs that lie, should be jailed for misrepresentation of what they do.

However, any PCC that simply says that they will liquidate your timeshare for a fee and do it according to the statutes such as the Timeshare Resale Accountability Act without lying or breaking any laws should be considered a hero to TUG.

 

[BocaBum99]

What is happening far too often is PCC's telling timeshare owners that they cannot deed back, and induce the member to pay big bucks, often ~$3K to take the timeshare off their hands, and then the PCC itself deeds it back to the HOA, which the member himself could have done without paying the PCC for the ''service''. This constitutes the criminal felony of Obtaining money or Property by False Pretenses. I would like to see some PCC's being prosecuted criminally for this.

Malarky. You tie two things together. You state positively that the PCC affirms that a resort does not take deedbacks, then you say that they deed it back. That is unethical. They don't need to do that.

A smart PCC will say that if the timeshare resort they own takes deedbacks, they should do that instead of using their service. When they can't figure out how to do it, they pay the fee and if the PCC gives it back to the resort, then everything is fine. The client is paying for a service. There is no need to lie about the service someone provides.

If they lie and misrepresent their service, they should be fined or jailed. I am saying that there is no need to lie about it. Any business can lie or stretch the truth about what they can do. I'd say probably every business does to a certain extent.

If I am a PCC offering a $1000 liquidation service, I am only offering that service if I can on average liquid it for much less than $1000. Otherwise, I would be out of business. Who am I to judge the creativity of some entrepreneur who figured out how to do it legally and ethically?

 

[Carolinian]

You have danced around the whole fraudulent Viking Ship operation. Many of them do that.

I have seen the transfers where PCC's do deedbacks to HOA's that would have taken the deedback directly from the member. If you really believe a PCC told the member that they could do it themselves, then I have a prime red week on a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to talk to you about . . .

I have seen too many reports of people who have attended PCC meetings. The PCC tactics are as slimy as the worst timeshare developer sales weasels.

Malarky. You tie two things together. You state positively that the PCC affirms that a resort does not take deedbacks, then you say that they deed it back. That is unethical. They don't need to do that.

A smart PCC will say that if the timeshare resort they own takes deedbacks, they should do that instead of using their service. When they can't figure out how to do it, they pay the fee and if the PCC gives it back to the resort, then everything is fine. The client is paying for a service. There is no need to lie about the service someone provides.

If they lie and misrepresent their service, they should be fined or jailed. I am saying that there is no need to lie about it. Any business can lie or stretch the truth about what they can do. I'd say probably every business does to a certain extent.

If I am a PCC offering a $1000 liquidation service, I am only offering that service if I can on average liquid it for much less than $1000. Otherwise, I would be out of business. Who am I to judge the creativity of some entrepreneur who figured out how to do it legally and ethically?

 

[timeos2]

Instead of demonizing the PCCs, we should demonize the HOAs who need to change their policies which will put the PCCs out of business. Such policies may also put them out of business, but if they cannot create a resort experience worth more than $0 on the open market, then the resort should close down.

While I certainly respect Boca and his right to his opinion of PCC's, I believe he is in the minority with that view. To state that there is any simple answer to the resale issue - such as every resort must take in ownerships - is over simplified and is not a true option. To state that PCC's are anything but predators is totally misleading. They are not a help to anyone - owner or resort - in the industry. They are not benevolent organizations. The vast majority are out for a quick buck at the expense of those who feel desperate (who if they really studied their options rather than believing the scare tactics these groups foster they would know they always have real and often low or no cost options) to the hundreds and thousands these often scam based groups milk them for.

The reasons why simply agreeing to take back ownerships isn't always an option for resorts has been covered many times, so I won't repeat it. What is happening is not the demise of those resorts which do or don't take deeds it is the slow but sure shutdown of the mostly corrupt PCC's and so called relief groups as the owners (HOA's - they are the owners!) fight back. Lets see in three years if more PCC's have been shut down (and often fined and /or jailed) or disappeared or if more resorts have failed. I can guarantee you what the answer's going to be.

 

[BocaBum99]

You have danced around the whole fraudulent Viking Ship operation. Many of them do that.

I have seen the transfers where PCC's do deedbacks to HOA's that would have taken the deedback directly from the member. If you really believe a PCC told the member that they could do it themselves, then I have a prime red week on a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to talk to you about . . .

I have seen too many reports of people who have attended PCC meetings. The PCC tactics are as slimy as the worst timeshare developer sales weasels.

I am not dancing around anything. Viking ships exist. A PCC doesn't need to create one to be in business. Many of them don't create Viking Ships. If they do, they are foolish.

I don't care if a PCC deedbacks deeds to the HOA. That is one tool for the PCC to liquidate the timeshare legally and ethically. The more resorts that do this, the better.

If the owner can deed it back themselves, I am fine with that, too. My experience with owners is that they don't even know what they own, let alone how to transfer it to anyone including the resort. If an owner is willing to pay someone $1000 to get rid of their timeshare and that person gives it back to the resort, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that practice. I do think it is wrong to state that the resort does NOT take deedbacks and then do it. You made that allegation. I am challenging it.

 

[BocaBum99]

While I certainly respect Boca and his right to his opinion of PCC's, I believe he is in the minority with that view. To state that there is any simple answer to the resale issue - such as every resort must take in ownerships - is over simplified and is not a true option. To state that PCC's are anything but predators is totally misleading. They are not a help to anyone - owner or resort - in the industry. They are not benevolent organizations. The vast majority are out for a quick buck at the expense of those who feel desperate (who if they really studied their options rather than believing the scare tactics these groups foster they would know they always have real and often low or no cost options) to the hundreds and thousands these often scam based groups milk them for.

The reasons why simply agreeing to take back ownerships isn't always an option for resorts has been covered many times, so I won't repeat it. What is happening is not the demise of those resorts which do or don't take deeds it is the slow but sure shutdown of the mostly corrupt PCC's and so called relief groups as the owners (HOA's - they are the owners!) fight back. Lets see in three years if more PCC's have been shut down (and often fined and /or jailed) or disappeared or if more resorts have failed. I can guarantee you what the answer's going to be.

Until people like you recognize that the ONLY long term solution to the timeshare industry is unfettered deedbacks to the resorts, then you are part of the problem. You perpetuate the predatory practices of PCCs by not putting pressure on resorts to do the right thing and simply take back deeds.

You need to state your case for it again because it makes no sense. My logic is simple. If a resort cannot take back deeds for free with 1-2 years maintenance fees and have someone else take over those maintenance fees for little to no cost, then the HOA should put forth a proposal to terminate the timeshare plan, sell off the property and distribute proceeds to the owners of record in proportion to their ownership. Zero market value is by definition a zombie resort. We need to let zombie, undead resorts die.

Having those resorts subsidized by owners who are held hostage by their HOAs is unethical and immoral when an alternative that yields the best and highest use to all owners is at hand. HOAs are not performing their fiduciary duties if they do not consider options for terminating the timeshare plan.

 

[Carolinian]

The problem that resorts are having right now is not with the own to use members but with exchangers for whom RCI changed the equation with Points Lite and they now want out. There is nothing any HOA could have done about that, except maybe to have had the foresight to have affiliated with II.

Terminating any resort organized under the laws in effect before the Uniform Condominium Act require unamious consent in most cases, something that is extremely unlikely to happen. Even under the UCA, it takes a supermajority which is also hard to obtain.

HOA's are trying to deal with the new realities out there. Exchanging once helped stabilize timeshare, but now tends to be destabilizing with all the RCI changes.

Until people like you recognize that the ONLY long term solution to the timeshare industry is unfettered deedbacks to the resorts, then you are part of the problem. You perpetuate the predatory practices of PCCs by not putting pressure on resorts to do the right thing and simply take back deeds.

You need to state your case for it again because it makes no sense. My logic is simple. If a resort cannot take back deeds for free with 1-2 years maintenance fees and have someone else take over those maintenance fees for little to no cost, then the HOA should put forth a proposal to terminate the timeshare plan, sell off the property and distribute proceeds to the owners of record in proportion to their ownership. Zero market value is by definition a zombie resort. We need to let zombie, undead resorts die.

Having those resorts subsidized by owners who are held hostage by their HOAs is unethical and immoral when an alternative that yields the best and highest use to all owners is at hand. HOAs are not performing their fiduciary duties if they do not consider options for terminating the timeshare plan.

 

[Carolinian]

So far, the state Attorneys General have been taking the civil court approach with them - fines, restitution to their victims, and barring them from operating in the state. I think it is high time to move to criminal prosecution, as is now happening at least in FLorida with the resale scams.

While I certainly respect Boca and his right to his opinion of PCC's, I believe he is in the minority with that view. To state that there is any simple answer to the resale issue - such as every resort must take in ownerships - is over simplified and is not a true option. To state that PCC's are anything but predators is totally misleading. They are not a help to anyone - owner or resort - in the industry. They are not benevolent organizations. The vast majority are out for a quick buck at the expense of those who feel desperate (who if they really studied their options rather than believing the scare tactics these groups foster they would know they always have real and often low or no cost options) to the hundreds and thousands these often scam based groups milk them for.

The reasons why simply agreeing to take back ownerships isn't always an option for resorts has been covered many times, so I won't repeat it. What is happening is not the demise of those resorts which do or don't take deeds it is the slow but sure shutdown of the mostly corrupt PCC's and so called relief groups as the owners (HOA's - they are the owners!) fight back. Lets see in three years if more PCC's have been shut down (and often fined and /or jailed) or disappeared or if more resorts have failed. I can guarantee you what the answer's going to be.

 

[Rent_Share]

Until people like you recognize that the ONLY long term solution to the timeshare industry is unfettered deedbacks to the resorts, then you are part of the problem. .

What is the next step when the resort can no longer operate due to too many non paying weeks in HOA inventory ?

 

[timeos2]

What is the next step when the resort can no longer operate due to too many non paying weeks in HOA inventory ?

Therein lies the flaw in Boca's (and a few others including our gracious host Brian) logic.

If you think about the situation even in extreme cases better than 50% of the owners usaully continue to pay their fees. In fact most often the number of paid owners tends to be 80 percent or more. In other words the vast majority.

Why should any resort ignore the majority of owners - the very group that are the Association - to favor the minority that for whatever reason want a relatively easy & guaranteed way out of ownership?

I am in 100% agreement that it is a problem and the need for an outlet for those truly needing to sell is critical. But the answer is not and will never be to take further advantage of their bad situation to charge them hundreds or thousands to "get rid" of what they have been steered into seeing as an inescapable situation (not true) and then to force the majority to cover whatever costs generated to recover that ownership and cover the unpaid fees for it.

Although Boca equates it to a shortsightedness for those with a view of the PCC's and others as predators, I see it their view of those groups as the incorrect one. The majority of owners want the system to perform as they were originally promised and they have lived up to. It did not include covering others fees.

It is the actions of the PCC's and the misinformation they encourage that helps create the near zero value for many ownerships. Certainly not the only reason for it but a major one. If a more structured market is maintained (see the efforts of Marriott, DVC, Happamag, proactive HOA's and some other more forward thinking groups) then the $1 or less sales aren't allowed to occur. This doesn't have to mean resorts accepting ownership but does mean offering owners a true method to reasonably sell their time when they need to,

It can be and is being done all the time. The PCC's and other groups that encourage easy ways out and depress prices are a major hindrance to those efforts and will never be considered a help to anyone in anyway (except of course to themselves).

It is the responsibility of every HOA Association to do what is in the best interest of ALL owners - not the minority that desire special treatment. If it makes sense for a given Association to accept deed backs then by all means they should do so. But if it doesn't make sense in their specific situation they need to find true alternatives for the owners. If they fail in that then yes, blame them for the situation and make changes at that level. But making the problem even worse by burdening the majority with even higher costs will never be a reasonable or desirable choice.

 

[tschwa2]

I know lawmakers are busy but I think they could also help the ts biz. Many states have laws that require all intervals to be charged the same amount of fees. I believe in all fairness there is a difference in the cost of Maintenance does differ (slightly) throughout the year. But even so off off season intervals in seasonal locations can't survive in the long term with winter weeks paying the same as summer weeks and need to be supplemented. It doesn't help that RCI changed the way trading works but they are a business and changed their model. The Timeshare HOA's have to be able to change too.

 

[timeos2]

I know lawmakers are busy but I think they could also help the ts biz. Many states have laws that require all intervals to be charged the same amount of fees. I believe in all fairness there is a difference in the cost of Maintenance does differ (slightly) throughout the year. But even so off off season intervals in seasonal locations can't survive in the long term with winter weeks paying the same as summer weeks and need to be supplemented. It doesn't help that RCI changed the way trading works but they are a business and changed their model. The Timeshare HOA's have to be able to change too.

Yes! But if it cannot be changed (even if the law is changed it would only apply to future sales - it cannot alter the original terms of the disclosure) there are ways for Associations to make that necessary adjustment. It can be through a very tough to obtain Owner approved change to the documents or there are other ways such as setting up a trust or a points program that allows the fees to be spread more fairly over the use/trade/rental value of the use time owned.

It all comes down to the Associations cannot sit back and simply say "you must pay or we dun you & your credit". They need to be proactive and recognize there is a problem and do everything they can to fix it. It may or may not involve deed backs but it usually cannot be "do nothing".