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MFs and Housekeeping

The 10% Management Fee is written into the Management Agreement governing documents of every Marriott timeshare, which are not 100% under the various resorts' BOD/HOA control. If we were able to surmount the required, almost-impossible ownership majority vote to effect a decrease in the management fee, we'd pretty much be guaranteeing that our resorts would no longer carry the Marriott name because Marriott has unilateral authority to sever the management agreement at will. Following the name change we'd also lose the various perks related to the Marriott Rewards program, our inclusion in Marriott's DC system, our Marriott preference in II, etc.

In short, we'd end up owning a non-Marriott resort. If we wanted to own a non-Marriott resort, we would have bought a non-Marriott resort!

No matter how many times you bring this rallying cry to this board whenever fees are discussed, your simplistic idea of us rising up and demanding a decrease in the management fee will never happen, at least not until Marriott decides that they no longer want the resorts. For most of us Marriott owners, that's the day that we'll also not want the resorts.

I wish the resorts in Europe were only 10% for the management fee - they are 15%. But the subject here is housekeeping costs and the HOA or ABOD (in Europe) should be reviewing the cleaning and other housekeeping contracts to ensure best value. At my resorts in Europe these contracts are all outsourced and the Advisory Board of elected owners is responsible for ensuring that the management (Marriott) get best value.
 
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... I am just trying to understand how it can cost between $150 to $200 to clean a unit once a week.

... Are you suggesting that MVCI is getting kick backs from the linen and soap vendor?

MVCI managers may or may not be getting a kick back from vendors but they have no incentive to get the most value out of any purchase.

In fact, just the opposite is true. If MVCI gets a 10% fee for every dollar they spend, they will be paying the most they can to get services and products.

Why pay $100 for a service and make $10 when they can find the same service for $200 and make $20. This charge is passed on to the owners whether it's the lower or higher number. It's real easy to spend other peoples money.

As long as some people see buying retail as a value, retail will be sold.

As long as some people think they are getting value out of name brands, they will pay the extra cash and those brands will be sold.
 
MVCI managers may or may not be getting a kick back from vendors but they have no incentive to get the most value out of any purchase.

In fact, just the opposite is true. If MVCI gets a 10% fee for every dollar they spend, they will be paying the most they can to get services and products.

Why pay $100 for a service and make $10 when they can find the same service for $200 and make $20. This charge is passed on to the owners whether it's the lower or higher number. It's real easy to spend other peoples money.

As long as some people see buying retail as a value, retail will be sold.

As long as some people think they are getting value out of name brands, they will pay the extra cash and those brands will be sold.

The implication is that Marriott doesn't make any effort at all to curtail HOA spending at the resorts because their bottom line would be affected, but the reality is that the BOD/HOA can have some influence and the good ones will exert it. One example I've reported before is from (either SurfWatch's or Barony's - can't remember at this moment) latest refurb: the tv's were replaced and it turned out that they were too big for the existing armoires. In keeping with their required "brand standard" Marriott recommended replacing the armoires with $800 models that matched the other pieces in the units. The board instead found a local carpenter who was able to remove the upper cabinet and replace it with a flat top at a cost of $100 each. When presented with that alternative Marriott agreed to it because the standard wasn't compromised. I've seen the "new" tv cabinets and they're beautiful. If they looked cheap I would not be happy - given the choice between crappy refurbs and Marriott's suggestions, I'd choose Marriott's every time.

Of course Marriott is going to insist on exerting influence on their resorts - their reputation is on the line! I'm sure that there are times when owners would be willing to sacrifice the "brand standard" in order to save money as well as times when the BOD's don't come up with cost-savings alternatives to Marriott's suggestions. But this one example proves that Marriott isn't always the money-grubbing overlord that some non-owners think is in place. They can be reasonable in working with the BOD's and owners. They know that it's a fine line they're walking between their reputation and the owners' satisfaction.

TUGger Minoter practically bends over backwards imploring us to exercise our voting rights and try to elect board members who will actually work with Marriott for us owners. As the BOD president at BPT he knows better than anyone that it's practically the only influence we have. Hopefully we TUGgers are all doing our part regardless of the fact that's been reported so often, that owners simply don't vote in majority numbers. :(
 
MVCI managers ..... have no incentive to get the most value out of any purchase.

In fact, just the opposite is true. If MVCI gets a 10% fee for every dollar they spend, they will be paying the most they can to get services and products.

Why pay $100 for a service and make $10 when they can find the same service for $200 and make $20. This charge is passed on to the owners whether it's the lower or higher number. It's real easy to spend other peoples money.
This is way too simplistic and overlooks an important fact. Don't forget that MVCI still owns an awful lot of unsold weeks themselves. If they overpay vendors, they have to pay the increased costs on those weeks just like any other owner. Why would they want to overpay in order to get 10% of the overpayment back in management fees? And if they let the maintenance fees of trust owned weeks get out of control it will also hurt their ability to sell points.

I am continually amazed by how many people on TUG automatically seem to believe that MVCI's primary motive is to screw them. I don't agree with everything MVCI does, but I certainly don't view this as an us vs. them situation.
 
I wish the resorts in Europe were only 10% for the management fee - they are 15%. But the subject here is housekeeping costs and the HOA or ABOD (in Europe) should be reviewing the cleaning and other housekeeping contracts to ensure best value. At my resorts in Europe these contracts are all outsourced and the Advisory Board of elected owners is responsible for ensuring that the management (Marriott) get best value.

(I'm embarrassed that I don't always try to account for the European resorts with my posts, especially because you and others continue to post here despite the emphasis on US-resort matters. Keep prodding us, MALC, to make the same effort that you do. :eek: )

I've been wracking my brains trying to remember seeing cleaning staff at Barony but I'm drawing a blank. At SurfWatch, though, when we check out of a 3BR unit there's usually a team of 3-4 staff members who swoop down on the place the minute we're out the door. I'd guess it take them at least two hours to fully clean the unit, and that's after we've emptied the trash, stripped the beds, started the dishwasher and put all the furniture back in its right place. I'm sure there are units that aren't left like that which probably take them much longer to clean. So even if the $201.62 is only allocated to salaries, that's at the most $25/hour for 4 staff members. Figure in the other expenses covered by that line item (supplies, staff employment benefits, etc.) and IMO that's a reasonable amount. :shrug:

Despite that, I'm still very interested in this discussion because it's important for us to know when and how the DC's usage patterns are impacting us Weeks Owners and our resorts. I'd like to see some concrete figures from Marriott but since that's usually a pipe dream, the TUGgers' collective knowledge is a good substitute.
 
So why does it cost approximately 20% less than this when I sign-up for an extra full clean during mid-week while occupying my unit?

Also, when I stay 10 days of longer in my unit, I get a FREE full-clean at my resorts. Who is paying for that? I guess that is already figured into my MF?
 
So why does it cost approximately 20% less than this when I sign-up for an extra full clean during mid-week while occupying my unit?

I would be interested to know why a full mid week clean paid in cash is cheaper than a full clean included in the MFs. It is my understanding that that full clean is just like that done on a vacated unit. New linen, towels, soap. So the cost should be the same. I just looked at the cost of a full clean from our Oceana Palms pre-arrival e-mail and it was only $98. A bargain I am sure compared to what the owners are paying in their MFs.

Also, when I stay 10 days of longer in my unit, I get a FREE full-clean at my resorts. Who is paying for that? I guess that is already figured into my MF?

That full clean after the 7th night should be part of the MFs. However it is the second clean that happens after night 10 that there is an issue. Who is paying for that full clean?
 
One other thing worth noting regarding the "10% management fee" that Marriott earns -- that's not pure profit to Marriott. The way it is characterized is that they are a greedy developer pocketing our money without us receiving anything of value in return, but they have to incur expenses to actually manage the properties on our behalf.

So what is their profit here?

If you look at their September 10-Q, you will see the following:

Management fee revenues (36 weeks): $176M ---> this is the 10%
Management fee expenses (36 weeks): (141M)

Management fee profit ...................... $ 35M ----> this is what Marriott keeps (approx 2%)

If my MFs for MOC are $2,600 for my 3BR week, and Marriott's management fee is $260 of that amount, well Marriott is only profiting by $50 from management of my week.

I am happy to pay an extra $50 to Marriott for their management expertise for each week. Marriott is in the business of managing other people's properties, and I think this is very reasonable.

All the best,

Greg
 
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Why 15% Management Fee in Europe?

I am still wondering why the management fee at my European Resorts is 15% while it is only 10% at US Resorts?

Looks like another eMail to my board members for an answer is required.
 
Perhaps a bit off topic, but since we are also talking about MF increases- what was the points MF increase this year, and how did it compare with the percentage increases of many of the resorts? And esp. since housekeeping fees are disproportionately generated by points use (and split weeks) is the fair share of increased costs being conveyed?
 
Perhaps a bit off topic, but since we are also talking about MF increases- what was the points MF increase this year, and how did it compare with the percentage increases of many of the resorts? And esp. since housekeeping fees are disproportionately generated by points use (and split weeks) is the fair share of increased costs being conveyed?

Marilyn,

I think the points increased from $0.41 to almost $0.44 (FT, can you correct me?).

I also don't think that's attributable to higher housekeeping fees, I believe that is attributable to the addition of a load of Ritz Carlton weeks into the Trust. Dioxide and I ran a rough calculation to try and back into the Trust MFs and it seemed to our imperfect analysis that the majority of the increase was directly attributable to Ritz Carlton Vail.

I think the reality is that the weeks owners are bearing the higher cost associated with daily check-in, and therefore are providing another subsidy to the DClub program. If there is a HK subsidy in there, I do not see it broken out anywhere in the MOC budget.

I think that is a good question for the GMs of our properties and will be interesting to get that feedback.

Best,

Greg
 
If my MFs for MOC are $2,600 for my 3BR week, and Marriott's management fee is $260 of that amount, well Marriott is only profiting by $50 from management of my week.

Quoting myself again....:ponder:

Restating earlier comments -- my "profit element" from the management fee is $50 on my $2,600 MF.

But, for the Marriott owner who pays $1,200 in MFs, the amount that Marriott truly profits from managing their property is approximately $25 per week.

I do consider this reasonable, and hope TUGgers concur.

Note that this doesn't change or minimize legitimate questions on how competitive housekeeping services are, what's the general posture on deferred maintenance,etc --- which the HOAs are responsible for monitoring.

Best,

Greg
 
I don't understand it either, but Housekeeping does include more than just the labor costs. It also includes all laundry costs, as well as all soap, shampoo, detergent, facial tissues, toilet paper, etc., and probably the cost of the towels, bed linens and blankets also. Even so, it seems way too high.

DC guests...please stop taking all the toiletries & supplies home with you after your 2-4 night stays! :rofl:
 
I don't own any Marriott units, but thought this an interesting discussion. For our Starwood units, next year's "housekeeping & rooms" is budgeted at:

Westin Kierland 2 bedroom LO: $360.41
Sheraton Desert Oasis 2 bedroom LO: $206.92

I am curious as to what is included in "housekeeping & rooms." Would this include replacing damaged/missing soft goods & appliances? I realize reserves are also collected for soft goods & appliance updating, but would that only cover items at the end of their "natural" lifespan? If items need replacing prematurely and come out of the housekeeping budget, I can see that as a potentially big expense.

Also, I'm curious about how much linen/towel laundry service costs. That's got to be a pretty penny. Would pool towels also come out of the "housekeeping & rooms" line? I don't see another place where that would go.

I think there may be more in this category than just room cleaning, supplies, & toiletries.

Glorian
 
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Thank you Susan for reminding owners to vote their proxy to keep owner selected BODs in position at the sold out properties. I believe the most effective Boards are those that work in the spirit of partnership with Marriott, while keeping the owners' interests as the prioroity.

That said, there is only so much the BODs can do regarding maintenance fees. In Florida, by State law, the BODs must approve an annual budget. However, there is no law or provision for penalizing the manager for overspending the budget for example, to meet "Brand Standards". That is exactly what occurred for recurring fixed costs at BeachPlace Towers which resulted in 60% of the 9.3% increase in the 2013 maintenance fees at BeachPlace. The law does allow for the removal of the manager. In the case of the Marriott properties, only a super majority of owners can remove Marriott as manager. Frankly, that would not be a good thing for most owners who bought for the Marriott brand and the benefits related to the Brand.

Regarding the housekeeping matter: During this year's budget discussions, the BeachPlace Towers Board was concerned about whether the fees paid to the Association for housekeeping for hotel guests and DC occupants were adequate. At BeachPlace Towers, the net housekeeping costs increased over 25% since the inception of the DC. Marriott indicated that these costs increased primarily as a result of market wage and benefit Brand Standard adjustments. The Board is following through on this matter and has asked Marriott to provide the calculation to support the housekeeping reimbursement to the Association for hotel guests and DC occupants.

Regarding the management fee--Our Board has also raised the question of charging 10% on the maintenance fee portion of collected property taxes. I believe it is important to understand that Marriott has a cost model that the management fee must subsidize. Although the management fee is driven by the annual budget, I have not seen any evidence of Marriott increasing the budget to derive additional management fees. That said, the budgeted expenses are paid with other peoples' (owners') money, and so the owner Board does have a responsibility to insure that Marriott researches the best price for goods and services. I cannot attest to the management fee "profit element" that is discussed in this thread. Keep in mind that certain regional and national overhead costs are passed down to the local resort in the budget areas of administration, accounting and billing and collections. These Marriott regional costs are budgeted as separate line items in addition to the 10% management fee on all budgeted line items.

Eric Minotti
 
Not having served on a board, I am wondering how HK fees are determined. Does the management company give the board a 1 year projected budget and then it is broken down by unit size and then divided by the total number of unit/owners including association owned units? I would think that the HK portion of defaulted units shouldn't be passed on to the other owners because if it can't be rented for at least the housekeeping charge than the unit should stay empty. Then for every cleaning beyond the one allotted cleaning per week, someone should be billed. If the developer wants to rent out their own units and let it be divided into short stays then they need to cover the per cleaning cost. The same for the DC. It gets really complicated with points though and makes it much harder to account for. An Ocean front weeks owner who pays for one house keeping and then stays 9 days total in an ocean view room and gets an extra housekeeping how is it accounted for. If another owner has 3 midweek stays using one week how does that work.

I thought that the skim was supposed to cover some of the extra cost but it seems like the budgets aren't getting anything extra. Hopefully the issue won't get brushed under the rug but will be resolved.
 
............................
Regarding the housekeeping matter: During this year's budget discussions, the BeachPlace Towers Board was concerned about whether the fees paid to the Association for housekeeping for hotel guests and DC occupants were adequate. At BeachPlace Towers, the net housekeeping costs increased over 25% since the inception of the DC. Marriott indicated that these costs increased primarily as a result of market wage and benefit Brand Standard adjustments. The Board is following through on this matter and has asked Marriott to provide the calculation to support the housekeeping reimbursement to the Association for hotel guests and DC occupants.

Regarding the management fee--Our Board has also raised the question of charging 10% on the maintenance fee portion of collected property taxes. I believe it is important to understand that Marriott has a cost model that the management fee must subsidize. Although the management fee is driven by the annual budget, I have not seen any evidence of Marriott increasing the budget to derive additional management fees. That said, the budgeted expenses are paid with other peoples' (owners') money, and so the owner Board does have a responsibility to insure that Marriott researches the best price for goods and services. I cannot attest to the management fee "profit element" that is discussed in this thread. Keep in mind that certain regional and national overhead costs are passed down to the local resort in the budget areas of administration, accounting and billing and collections. These Marriott regional costs are budgeted as separate line items in addition to the 10% management fee on all budgeted line items.

Eric Minotti

Eric, interesting and illuminating comments, much appreciated.

I've color coded the parts that really intrigue me.

With respect to the red comment, this appears to respond to the question on whether or not Marriott reimburses for Housekeeping for hotel guests and DC members. At least we know some money is changing hands, and I'm glad that your HOA is requesting support that the reimbursement is adequate. But at least we know some money is coming back (as it should be).

With respect to the blue comment, I do not follow the implications, can you elaborate? This seems like an important point and I would like to understand?

Thanks again for your comments, they are interesting perspective.

Best,

Greg
 
Eric, interesting and illuminating comments, much appreciated.

I've color coded the parts that really intrigue me.

With respect to the red comment, this appears to respond to the question on whether or not Marriott reimburses for Housekeeping for hotel guests and DC members. At least we know some money is changing hands, and I'm glad that your HOA is requesting support that the reimbursement is adequate. But at least we know some money is coming back (as it should be).

Good to know that some reimbursement is happening, but I question where we see it. Is it just built in to the housekeeping line item on the budget? I certainly don't see a subsidy on there where it is income to the HOA.

Something else to note, there are additional items on the budget that I would think are probably direct pass-through to MVCI. The amounts below are for Harbour Lake.

Accounting 13.73
Administration 31.66
Billing and Collections 9.48
Credit Card Fee 13.32
Human Resources 13.11
Management Fee 93.20
Owner Services 31.36

I wonder if those amounts are considered Management Fee income in their quarterly quarterly reports? If so, their total management fee is more like 20% of our budget of $1008. Would this 205.86 end up being their $174MM and not just the $93.20? If so, then their profit may be more than just the ~2%?
 
Greg,
Certain of the expenses of Marriott Vacations Worldwide represent regional overhead costs in the areas of administration, accounting and billing and collections. These costs are included in each resort's budget and are paid as a part of the maintenance fee paid by owners. These payments are in addition to the 10% management fee included in the resort's budget as a separate resort expense line item. The management fee does not subsidize these separate overhead expenses. The 10% management fee is intended to help cover (subsidize) expenses related to the "Resort management and other expenses" as you noted on page 26 of the 10Q. Hope this helps.

Eric
 
Does anyone know what exactly are "housekeeping fees;" besides just villa cleaning, are the various sundries and are all resort laundry fees, including pool towels laundry and replacement, included as housekeeping fees? Are towel hut personnel, etc., and all other resort cleaning (common areas, bathroom upkeep, etc.) included in this line? If so, that might explain the sizable difference between a paid for cleaning of a unit and the housekeeping fees line in the MF's.
 
Greg,
Certain of the expenses of Marriott Vacations Worldwide represent regional overhead costs in the areas of administration, accounting and billing and collections. These costs are included in each resort's budget and are paid as a part of the maintenance fee paid by owners. These payments are in addition to the 10% management fee included in the resort's budget as a separate resort expense line item. The management fee does not subsidize these separate overhead expenses. The 10% management fee is intended to help cover (subsidize) expenses related to the "Resort management and other expenses" as you noted on page 26 of the 10Q. Hope this helps.

Eric

Eric,

Thank you kindly -- these allocations do make sense to me because these are costs that Marriott corporate incurs on behalf of running the individual properties -- across multiple departments.

These appear to be on the Income Statement in the Form 10-Q included in Cost Reimbursement, both on the Income and on the Expense side on a dollar for dollar basis so there isn't a profit component with these services. The risk for abuse here is that Marriott passes costs along to its properties that are actually incurred for the management of Marriott Corporate itself and not the properties themselves (but I don't think that survives an audit).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I think I am seeing is this:

1) Marriott charges 10% of MFs for its property management services
2) Marriott incurs actual costs to administer those property management services
3) Those actual costs take most of the money charged (80%) leaving 2% of the 10% received as Marriott's mark-up to manage the properties. So if Marriott is paid $100 per week, they spent $80 on direct property management expenses and keep $20 for their profit.
......................
4) Marriott also employs people and supports the properties with administrative functions
5) These administrative functions cover HR, Accounting, and general Administration and Management (including Call Center)
6) Marriott passes these costs on to the properties on a dollar-for-dollar basis
7) Marriott does not mark-up these costs, ie they are purely a reimbursement of dollars expended
8) Marriott could benefit its shareholders by passing along costs to the properties that really benefit Corporate Marriott
9) We have to rely on auditors to make sure that Marriott is not passing along Corporate Marriott's expenses to the properties.

If what I have described is what is happening, then I conclude as follows:

1) Of the 10% management fee added to our MFs, approx 8% covers Marriotts expenses to directly manage the properties
2) Personally I feel that a 25% markup (ie 2% profit on 8% costs) is a reasonable profit margin for a for-profit company
3) That's $50 profit to manage each of my MOC weeks -- and a $25 profit to manage a property with $1,200 in MFs
4) Marriott appears to pass on costs that it incurs at the corporate level to direclty support a timeshare network. It hires an accounting staff (including billing and collections), human resources personnel, Vacation Ownership Advisors, IT staff, and has physical infrastructure somewhere that house all those VOA's and all that staff. That physical infrastructure requires monthly rent, electricity, water, and a periodic holiday party to maintain morale.
5) Marriott passes along the costs of #4 on a dollar-for-dollar basis to all of the properties in the Marriott network. They do not mark up this at all, but weeks owners do bear the cost of these services. They could spend our money foolishly and pass along these costs to us without our approval -- but I doubt so in this day and age.

If what I have described is truly accurate, then what we have suspected is correct -- Marriott has high MFs not because they are greedy developers and are gouging us, but because they have high Brand Standards that the properties must adhere to and because they have an infrastructure to support our properties that they deem is necessary. They don't profit from that infrastructure, and only pass along the cost.

Interesting stuff...

Best,

Greg


Search words: management fees profit corporate allocation
 
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Housekeeping

Just paid $70 for EOD towels and trash service for a 3br SurfWatch. They were in the unit for all of ten minutes. While housekeeping service costs seemingly have been padded as Dioxide suggests, it's still the only game in town. I don't want to wash towels and empty trash on my vacation.

The extra costs are all part of the resort experience. There were plenty of things at SW that were either free or low cost like live music, free hot dogs or brats, craft been tasting, etc. However, the point is well taken that nobody likes to feel that they got ripped off. Even if it is for housekeeping services.
 
One other thing worth noting regarding the "10% management fee" that Marriott earns -- that's not pure profit to Marriott. The way it is characterized is that they are a greedy developer pocketing our money without us receiving anything of value in return, but they have to incur expenses to actually manage the properties on our behalf.

So what is their profit here?

If you look at their September 10-Q, you will see the following:

Management fee revenues (36 weeks): $176M ---> this is the 10%
Management fee expenses (36 weeks): (141M)

Management fee profit ...................... $ 35M ----> this is what Marriott keeps (approx 2%)

If my MFs for MOC are $2,600 for my 3BR week, and Marriott's management fee is $260 of that amount, well Marriott is only profiting by $50 from management of my week.

I am happy to pay an extra $50 to Marriott for their management expertise for each week. Marriott is in the business of managing other people's properties, and I think this is very reasonable.

All the best,

Greg

I read the commentary beneath the figures.

"The increase in resort management and other services revenues reflects $3 million of higher management fees resulting from the cumulative increase in the number of vacation ownership products sold and higher operating costs across the system, $5 million of additional annual club dues earned in connection with the MVCD program, $2 million of higher ancillary revenues from food and beverage and golf offerings and nearly $1 million of higher resales revenues due to an increase in resale activity."

So then, go back up to the figures, and you will see that the mgmt fees were $46 million, up from $43 million in the year ago period. The other service revenues are the bulk of the total, $130 million. What does this consist of?


"Resort Management and Other Services

Our resort management and other services revenues includes revenues we earn for managing our resorts, providing ancillary offerings including food and beverage, retail, and golf and spa offerings, and for providing other services to our guests.
We provide day-to-day-management services, including housekeeping services, operation of reservation systems, maintenance, and certain accounting and administrative services for property owners’ associations. We receive compensation for such management services which is generally based on either a percentage of total costs to operate the resorts or a fixed fee arrangement. We earn these fees regardless of usage or occupancy. In connection with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations TM (“MVCD”) program, we also receive annual club dues and certain transaction based fees charged to owners and other third parties for services.
Resort management and other services expenses include costs to operate the food and beverage and other ancillary operations and overall customer support services, including reservations."

I would not construe that 80 cents of every dollar they collect in resort management fees are going to upkeep. I believe the margin on the management fees are much, much higher than the margin on other services, but we do not have clear line of sight because, althouh they separate mgmt fee revenue from other services revenue, they pool all of the expenses together. That is probably intentional.
 
Marilyn,

I think the points increased from $0.41 to almost $0.44 (FT, can you correct me?).

Greg

The MF fees for trust points increased from $.41 to .43. This increase appears to be comparable overall to most of my MVC MF increases. I still don't believe the trust is contributing their fair share to the increase in housekeeping and front desk expenses.
 
The MF fees for trust points increased from $.41 to .43. This increase appears to be comparable overall to most of my MVC MF increases. I still don't believe the trust is contributing their fair share to the increase in housekeeping and front desk expenses.

But, it isn't just the Trust. It is also partial week stays by legacy owners who are using their week(s) as points. The money to cover this should come out of the skim or the annual fee.
 
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