MFs and Housekeeping

[dioxide45]

Looking at our 2013 budget amounts for Harbour Lake I see that the housekeeping costs are $155.30. 8.2% higher than in 2012. Grande Vista is larger but I don't have the 2013 budget breakdown yet but I suspect it is over the 2012 amount of $180.

I understand that housekeeping is the most expensive part of the MFs, but what warrants these high charges? I would think that labor is the highers part of the housekeeping charges, but I wouldn't think it takes more than a couple hours to clean a unit. Even if payroll with all benefits includes works out to $30 an hour, that would mean the labor portion of MFs is only about $70 a unit. What else am I missing to warrant another $100 in housekeeping costs?

 

[tschwa2]

Just for reference I looked up the housekeeping portion for Sheraton Broadway Plantation Palmetto phase. My 2 bedroom dedicated unit has a MF's of $739.30 including Reserves and has a housekeeping fee of $138.80. The 2 bedroom lock off has a MF of $975 and a housekeeping fee of $183.

 

[dioxide45]

Both of the resorts I speak of have lock off units. In the pre DC days, we paid $75/80 to lockoff, which I understand went to the HOA to cover additional housekeeping costs. It seems with that lockoff fee going away, the additional costs are being slid in to the MFs.

 

[tschwa2]

Except for those not in the DC who have to pay the higher fee and still have to pay the lock off fee. My bet it is to pay for the extra housekeeping due to DC points stay of less than a week.

 

[GrayFal]

Except for those not in the DC who have to pay the higher fee and still have to pay the lock off fee. My bet it is to pay for the extra housekeeping due to DC points stay of less than a week.

I agree - before our costs were for a once a week cleaning and possibly a mid week tidy - now a unit can turn over 3-4-5 times a week.
When a unit was rented thru marriott.com, the higher rental rates included/covered the cleaning.
Now I think the owners are footing the bill for the DC reservations.

 

[ilene13]

When we bought our first Marriott timeshare in the late 1980's ( on HH) we had daily maid service. In about 1995, Troy Asche who is now in corporate headquarters sent a communication out to all owners that if we continued with daily maid service our MF would increase. So owners voted to discontinue the daily service, but guess what our fees went up anyway.

 

[BocaBoy]

2013 Ko Olina housekeeping charges for a 2BR are $332/week (up 7.8%), and Maui (up approximately 8%) is nearly as high for a 2BR in the new towers when you add both operating entities at that resort. Note that Hawaiian resorts include a midweek tidy service for all units which undoubtedly accounts for part of the higher costs when compared to mainland resorts. As an owner at both of these resorts, I would like to see the midweek tidy service scrapped. Nonetheless, housekeeping at these resorts seems extremely expensive, even when you realize that laundry costs are included in housekeeping costs.

By contrast, 2013 housekeeping charges for a 2BR at Grand Chateau are $121 (up 6.7%) and they are $198.75 (also up 6.7%) for a 3BR.

I have two thoughts: First, it does appear that the DC short stays may be responsible for the hefty percentage increases in housekeeping costs at nearly all the resorts. And second, the Hawaii housekeeping costs for a week are nearly half as much as the average room rate at some Fairfield Inns and Towne Place Suites, where they have daily housekeeping.

 

[SueDonJ]

SurfWatch is $173.51 for a 2BR and $201.62 for a 3BR, up 3.5% for 2013 (compared to 2.2% last year.)

Barony is $160.46 for a 2BR, up 3.9% for 2013 (compared to 1.3% last year.)

Both resorts are non-lockoff.

 

[csxjohn]

Looking at our 2013 budget amounts for Harbour Lake I see that the housekeeping costs are $155.30. 8.2% higher than in 2012. Grande Vista is larger but I don't have the 2013 budget breakdown yet but I suspect it is over the 2012 amount of $180.

I understand that housekeeping is the most expensive part of the MFs, but what warrants these high charges? I would think that labor is the highers part of the housekeeping charges, but I wouldn't think it takes more than a couple hours to clean a unit. Even if payroll with all benefits includes works out to $30 an hour, that would mean the labor portion of MFs is only about $70 a unit. What else am I missing to warrant another $100 in housekeeping costs?

How in the world are they charging $155.30 to clean a unit?

I don't know the details of any of these resorts mentioned above but I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the people doing the cleaning are not getting anywhere near this amount.

Some resorts that I know about contract out the cleaning services on a per clean basis. Very low wages to the housekeepers and temporary part time workers so no benefits.

If this is the same at your resorts, Marriott is making a killing on you by marking up the cleaning services. If they have hired staff to do this work, they are still gouging the owners.

If they are paying $30 an hour to clean units, where do I apply?

 

[dannybaker]

What can we do?

We really love our Marriott but are frustrated with the cost and fee increases. I am amazed at the cost and time of cleaning up a room. We usually receive no mid week cleaning at most of our Marriott stays. When we first started going to Marriott's there was always a mid week clean, those are gone and cost still go up. What can we do? We can sell our Marriott, not a chance. We own several other timeshares and Marriott continues to lead in increased fees and total cost. However the units are awesome and quality is usually consistent. We will have stayed in at least 32 weeks of time share this year with Marriott being our favorite. We are members of both RCI and II and have found II to be far superior overall. Overall quality of room from a clean and maintenance has Marriott in the lead with Hilton close behind.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

We really love our Marriott but are frustrated with the cost and fee increases. I am amazed at the cost and time of cleaning up a room. We usually receive no mid week cleaning at most of our Marriott stays. When we first started going to Marriott's there was always a mid week clean, those are gone and cost still go up. What can we do? We can sell our Marriott, not a chance. We own several other timeshares and Marriott continues to lead in increased fees and total cost. However the units are awesome and quality is usually consistent. We will have stayed in at least 32 weeks of time share this year with Marriott being our favorite. We are members of both RCI and II and have found II to be far superior overall. Overall quality of room from a clean and maintenance has Marriott in the lead with Hilton close behind.

Did I read that right? 32 weeks? We're in week 50 now, so you have only been home 18 weeks this year? Good for you!

Wow!




.

 

[dannybaker]

Dang Doctors appointments. Currently in Northern California, heading to Tahoe next week, then Marriott Newport. Spending the first four weeks of 2013 in Marriott Kolina and Waikoloa Hilton. All two bedrooms.

 

[dioxide45]

I am not so much bothered by the increase percentages (of course that did lead to this problem). I am just trying to understand how it can cost between $150 to $200 to clean a unit once a week. It does seem that owners are going to carry the burden of the extra housekeeping and front desk costs related to DC.

If I recall correctly, the DC trust MF/annual fee was supposed to cover these extra costs. I suppose that most of the DC annual fee for legacy enrolled owners go to II, but I would suspect very little of it from trust point owners does. Better yet if a legacy owner elects points, very little should go to II. I would think that MVCI would be passing that DC fee on to the MVC Exchange Company that would then be passed through to the HOAs to cover the additional costs associated with short stays.

Have any of the fees that MVCI used to pass through the the HOAs (short stay, lock off), been replaced with anything now that those fees are rolled in to the DC annual fee.. Perhaps Eric with the BeachPlace board could answer that?

ETA: Looking at our Harbour Lake 2013 operating budget, I don't see any income that looks like it could be replacing these fees. Of course I don't see any in the 2010 budget either.

 

[BocaBoy]

I am just trying to understand how it can cost between $150 to $200 to clean a unit once a week.

I don't understand it either, but Housekeeping does include more than just the labor costs. It also includes all laundry costs, as well as all soap, shampoo, detergent, facial tissues, toilet paper, etc., and probably the cost of the towels, bed linens and blankets also. Even so, it seems way too high.

 

[timeos2]

And automatic overhead on every dollar - that adds up quickly & should be disallowed by your Board. Except they are under management control rather than managing them as they are supposed to do. A common problem with incestuous developer/management relationships rather than proper owner control.

 

[PearlCity]

Isn't the skim in points supposed to cover the housekeeping for DC or am I missing something?

 

[SueDonJ]

And automatic overhead on every dollar - that adds up quickly & should be disallowed by your Board. Except they are under management control rather than managing them as they are supposed to do. A common problem with incestuous developer/management relationships rather than proper owner control.

The 10% Management Fee is written into the Management Agreement governing documents of every Marriott timeshare, which are not 100% under the various resorts' BOD/HOA control. If we were able to surmount the required, almost-impossible ownership majority vote to effect a decrease in the management fee, we'd pretty much be guaranteeing that our resorts would no longer carry the Marriott name because Marriott has unilateral authority to sever the management agreement at will. Following the name change we'd also lose the various perks related to the Marriott Rewards program, our inclusion in Marriott's DC system, our Marriott preference in II, etc.

In short, we'd end up owning a non-Marriott resort. If we wanted to own a non-Marriott resort, we would have bought a non-Marriott resort!

No matter how many times you bring this rallying cry to this board whenever fees are discussed, your simplistic idea of us rising up and demanding a decrease in the management fee will never happen, at least not until Marriott decides that they no longer want the resorts. For most of us Marriott owners, that's the day that we'll also not want the resorts.

 

[GregT]

In short, we'd end up owning a non-Marriott resort. If we wanted to own a non-Marriott resort, we would have bought a non-Marriott resort!

No matter how many times you bring this rallying cry to this board whenever fees are discussed, your simplistic idea of us rising up and demanding a decrease in the management fee will never happen, at least not until Marriott decides that they no longer want the resorts. For most of us Marriott owners, that's the day that we'll also not want the resorts.

I agree with these comments.

I sense a thread Closing coming.

 

[timeos2]

The 10% Management Fee is written into the Management Agreement governing documents of every Marriott timeshare, which are not 100% under the various resorts' BOD/HOA control. If we were able to surmount the required, almost-impossible ownership majority vote to effect a decrease in the management fee, we'd pretty much be guaranteeing that our resorts would no longer carry the Marriott name because Marriott has unilateral authority to sever the management agreement at will. Following the name change we'd also lose the various perks related to the Marriott Rewards program, our inclusion in Marriott's DC system, our Marriott preference in II, etc.

In short, we'd end up owning a non-Marriott resort. If we wanted to own a non-Marriott resort, we would have bought a non-Marriott resort!

No matter how many times you bring this rallying cry to this board whenever fees are discussed, your simplistic idea of us rising up and demanding a decrease in the management fee will never happen, at least not until Marriott decides that they no longer want the resorts. For most of us Marriott owners, that's the day that we'll also not want the resorts.

That is a very closed view. It has been done in many other cases - I believe even a Marriott or two - that owners get rightful control they should have and keep the management /name of the Developer of that property. The only difference is then whoever that developer was - in this Board it's Marriott - has to negotiate the terms rather than simply dictate them and assess whatever the resulting fees are.

In no way does it guarantee a Marriott walk out. Why would THEY want to leave & why, if you are satisfied, would the owners want them out? It just means they answer to the owners - as the documents were written to have occur - rather than control the owners.

I know you want to make it sound like being responsible means that Marriott would leave but that simply isn't the case. It is the type of negative argument managements use when threatened with loss of total control but it is just that - a threat not a likely occurrence.

It is really too bad that it seems so many owners of these manipulative developers are all too willing to buy into the company line and pay the overhead as demanded. It isn't in their best interest only, in this particular case, Marriott's. Eventually the costs (and it is more than 10% - take a closer look) will get high enough that owners will act. I just hope that by then it isn't too late for them (in other words too many gave up voting rights to Marriott & the control will always be with them & not the individual owners).

You can see that some owners realize this is wrong - hopefully those can take the actions needed to make Marriott a responsible management that answers to the owners & not the corporate bottom line profit.

 

[GregT]

All,

As others have noted, MOC's housekeeping fees have increased alot as well.

2010: $197 per ownership interest
2012: $230 per ownership interest
2013: $258 per ownership interest

Each ownership interest then gets a Multiplier based upon the size of the room. These ownership interests are for a 1BR in the Original Towers.

Multipliers against the 1BR ownership interest:

2BR Original Tower: 110%
2BR New Tower: 123%
3BR New Tower: 148%

So.....of my MFs of $2,600 for 2013, $382 are for cleaning alone (148% times $258). But my unit also looks fantastic every time I check in!

I do believe that this increase has to be related to the introduction of DClub and represents a way that the cost burden of the daily check-ins is being borne at least partly by the weeks owner.

Interesting stuff....

Best,

Greg

 

[dioxide45]

And automatic overhead on every dollar - that adds up quickly & should be disallowed by your Board. Except they are under management control rather than managing them as they are supposed to do. A common problem with incestuous developer/management relationships rather than proper owner control.

The management fee is a completely separate line item on our operating budget. So the housekeeping costs I am talking about are void of additional overhead you speak of. Are you suggesting that MVCI is getting kick backs from the linen and soap vendor?

 

[GregT]

It is really too bad that it seems so many owners of these manipulative developers are all too willing to buy into the company line and pay the overhead as demanded. It isn't in their best interest only, in this particular case, Marriott's. Eventually the costs (and it is more than 10% - take a closer look) will get high enough that owners will act. I just hope that by then it isn't too late for them (in other words too many gave up voting rights to Marriott & the control will always be with them & not the individual owners).

Yes I buy into the company line and pay the overhead as demanded. I even believe the MOC Board (including the Marriott representatives) do a good job of managing MOC and the General Manager has excellent responses to my questions.

Yes it is expensive to own a Marriott -- but I would be reluctant to have a board full of independent people who thought they knew better than a professional hospitality company how to run a property.

Imagine seven clowns who sit on an HOA board together and who all have strong opinions. What if you and I were on an HOA Board together and it was independent?

No perfect answer here -- at the moment, I am content to let the hospitality professionals oversee MOC (which includes some independent members) because I am satisfied with the product that we have. I personally know the Chairman of MOC's HOA (and he is not affiliated with Marriott) and he cares deeply about the property and takes his responsibility seriously.

Best,

Greg


Countdown to thread closing: T minus 54 hours

 

[timeos2]

The management fee is a completely separate line item on our operating budget. So the housekeeping costs I am talking about are void of additional overhead you speak of. Are you suggesting that MVCI is getting kick backs from the linen and soap vendor?

Most of the Marriott contracts allow for their % on every dollar collected for whatever reason. Unit cleaning isn't exempted (nor are tax dollars or reserves - why do they need a guaranteed profit on those?).

 

[dougp26364]

John, all I can say is if you don't like Marriott and their charges, then don't own Marriott. I tend to not own with timeshare management companies I don't like.

Those who own Marriott do so of their own free will. They like the quality and accept the fee's. When the fee's outweigh the benefit of owning a Marriott timeshare, then it's time to sell and buy something different.

So it's a moot point to continue to belabor the idea of owners trying to take over Marriott. It's Marriott's name on these resorts. If owners want that name there then they'll have to pay Marriott's prices. There is no revolution that's going to change the situation.

 

[SueDonJ]

That is a very closed view. It has been done in many other cases - I believe even a Marriott or two - that owners get rightful control they should have and keep the management /name of the Developer of that property. The only difference is then whoever that developer was - in this Board it's Marriott - has to negotiate the terms rather than simply dictate them and assess whatever the resulting fees are.

In no way does it guarantee a Marriott walk out. Why would THEY want to leave & why, if you are satisfied, would the owners want them out? It just means they answer to the owners - as the documents were written to have occur - rather than control the owners.

I know you want to make it sound like being responsible means that Marriott would leave but that simply isn't the case. It is the type of negative argument managements use when threatened with loss of total control but it is just that - a threat not a likely occurrence.

It is really too bad that it seems so many owners of these manipulative developers are all too willing to buy into the company line and pay the overhead as demanded. It isn't in their best interest only, in this particular case, Marriott's. Eventually the costs (and it is more than 10% - take a closer look) will get high enough that owners will act. I just hope that by then it isn't too late for them (in other words too many gave up voting rights to Marriott & the control will always be with them & not the individual owners).

You can see that some owners realize this is wrong - hopefully those can take the actions needed to make Marriott a responsible management that answers to the owners & not the corporate bottom line profit.

When you have a Marriott Public Offering Statement in your hand and can disseminate all of the actual provisions and stipulations pertaining to the Management Fee, then I'll be happy to discuss this further with you. I have two of them and they each consist of the Master Deed and Amendments, the Timesharing Declaration, the Management Agreement and various related articles. Barony's POS is 325 pages; SurfWatch's is 376. Various management-related issues, including how to enact changes to it, are stipulated in all three major components.

John, there is nothing wrong with your ideal of what a timeshare should be. But a Marriott timeshare does not fit that mold and never will. The Marriott governing docs do not allow for negotiation of the Management Fee. The ways it can be changed are contractually stipulated, and all of them require a practically insurmountable majority vote. Should one resort's ownership attain that holy grail there's no question that all of the rest will clamor for the same concession. Marriott is just not going to let it happen. Historically, Marriott has severed agreements with several resorts when challenged, and no HOA has been successful in reducing the 10% stipulation.

Please let this go. We Marriott owners are not blindly following a pied piper here. We know exactly what the risks and costs of owning Marriott timeshares are and we've chosen to assume them. We don't need saving.