Deeds to corporations?

[csxjohn]

I have seen it written that some people transfer their TS deeds to corporations and the resort in question never collects any MFs from them. I'm not sure of the exact details of these transactions and I can't find where I read about it.

Has anyone here done that?

Anyone have specifics on how to do it?

Sounds like a possible business opportunity.

 

[timeos2]

Yeah, it's a real possibility. For a scam operation. And one that could easily lead to a nice prison term.

I wouldn't recommend "looking into it" as an operator or a customer.

 

[csxjohn]

Yeah, it's a real possibility. For a scam operation. And one that could easily lead to a nice prison term.

I wouldn't recommend "looking into it" as an operator or a customer.

Well that doesn't sound good. You're saying that it would be illegal then. Well, that's not for me.

What does the term Viking Ship mean. I've seen that thrown around also.

 

[theo]

Well that doesn't sound good. You're saying that it would be illegal then. Well, that's not for me.
What does the term Viking Ship mean. I've seen that thrown around also.

Not actually "illegal", per se, but a resort might well refuse to acknowledge any deed to a corporation, since a corporation lacks any specific individual(s) to be easily accountable and responsible for maintenance fees.

"Viking Ship" is a term for a "vehicle" full of bogus deeds ("grantees" being a phony corporation or LLC, more often than not), which has no intentions of ever acknowledging or paying any future maintenance fee bills. At some point the "vehicle" itself is simply abandoned / dissolved, hence the analogy to a Viking Ship" being set adrift with the "departed" on board...

 

[csxjohn]

OK. Thank you both for your help.

 

[Craigvince]

I own 19 timeshare weeks and/or points contracts. All of them are deeded to my corporation.

Some of them I use myself, some I rent out, some I let my employees and their families use, some I let my clients use. All of them are fully owned with annual maintenance fees paid on time, every year.
I didn't have any problem with the resorts accepting my corporate documents proving it to be a legit company.

Not all corporate deeds are scams, for what its worth.

 

[theo]

Yesterday vs. Today...

I own 19 timeshare weeks and/or points contracts. All of them are deeded to my corporation.

Some of them I use myself, some I rent out, some I let my employees and their families use, some I let my clients use. All of them are fully owned with annual maintenance fees paid on time, every year.
I didn't have any problem with the resorts accepting my corporate documents proving it to be a legit company.

Not all corporate deeds are scams, for what its worth.

I'd be willing to bet that few, if any, of your referenced corporate ownerships have been recorded and accepted in the past 2-3 years. The new "dumping" / Viking Ship practices adopted in more recent years involving bogus LLC's and phony "corporations" has made many resorts very skeptical (...at best) about acknowledging deeds with "corporation" grantees.

I'm not suggesting that your practices or intentions are less than noble. I'm merely noting that resort perception / acceptance of corporations and LLC's as "grantees" has changed radically (understandably and justifiably so) in recent years...

 

[Craigvince]

I'd be willing to bet that few, if any, of your referenced corporate ownerships have been recorded and accepted in the past 2-3 years. The new "dumping" / Viking Ship practices adopted in more recent years involving bogus LLC's and phony "corporations" has made many resorts very skeptical (...at best) about acknowledging deeds with "corporation" grantees.

I'm not suggesting that your practices or intentions are less than noble. I'm merely noting that resort perception / acceptance of corporations and LLC's as "grantees" has changed radically (understandably and justifiably so) in recent years...

Actually, half of them have been deeded to my corporation in the last six months. And yes, I agree that many people have used empty corporations to "own" timeshares, with less than honest intentions. This has certainly become a piece of the larger problem. I'm just saying that some deeds to corporations are still legitimate.

 

[ronparise]

As Craig said in the above post....There is nothing wrong with holding your timeshares in a Corporation or LLC or a Trust. Put some in your wifes name, some in your name or add your childrens name to the deed if you like...All this is perfectly ok

All perfectly legal and depending on your situation and needs one form of ownership might be better than another (check with your attorney, accountant and estate guy)

Where some might say its wrong or illegal is when your intent is wrong or illegal. When for example you plan to stop paying maintenance fees, put the timeshare in a corporation, and abandon it or bankrupt it and you hide behind the corporate veil to avoid liability.

Some here have come to call LLCs or Corporations set up as a dumping ground for unwanted timeshares "Viking Ships" because they are loaded up with the dead, set on fire, or abandoned on the high seas...never to be seen again. This has come to be a common practice of the timeshare relief companies or as we like to call them PCCs

Why is this wrong? ask the owners of the other weeks at the resort when they see their mf going up and up to cover the weeks where no one is paying.

 

[csxjohn]

Thanks all for the additional info.

Ron said "Why is this wrong? ask the owners of the other weeks at the resort when they see their mf going up and up to cover the weeks where no one is paying."

If the HOAs, Borads of Directors, and Managers of the resorts do not bring value to the owners I see this happening more and more. If it gets to the point where an owner cannot or will not continue to pay MFs, there will be more and more defaults, adding to the expense to other owners.

I don't know the answer but something needs to be done, I believe.

As for resorts not recognizing a corporate owner, what right do they have to say who can own their units?

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Ridewithme38]

.

As for resorts not recognizing a corporate owner, what right do they have to say who can own their units?

Thanks again for all the help.

Yup, this is interesting to me too, a Deed is a legal contract, if the Deed is legally signed over and submitted/accepted by the county, i don't see what the resort could do

 

[ronparise]

Thanks all for the additional info.

Ron said "Why is this wrong? ask the owners of the other weeks at the resort when they see their mf going up and up to cover the weeks where no one is paying."

If the HOAs, Borads of Directors, and Managers of the resorts do not bring value to the owners I see this happening more and more. If it gets to the point where an owner cannot or will not continue to pay MFs, there will be more and more defaults, adding to the expense to other owners.

I don't know the answer but something needs to be done, I believe.

As for resorts not recognizing a corporate owner, what right do they have to say who can own their units?

Thanks again for all the help.

There have been lots of long and involved threads here on TUG dealing with the responsibilities of resort HOAs and their limitations...Ive been told Im spouting platitudes and called on my lack of real world experience, when I suggest boards ought to be doing something to increase or at least maintain value. But the fact is boards do have limited powers and often to get anything meaningful done they need a super majority of their members..Difficult at best

Regarding a boards authority to say who can own their units...Theres another limitation on a boards authority. They probably cant...Butlook to their organizing documents...they may. I know condo boards (not timeshare) that require a personal interview with potential new members..They can make it difficult to transfer ownership.

 

[e.bram]

Theo:
How could the HOA not accept a corp. of LLC if it is allowed by the master deed or bylaws. Certainly no converted points resorts could take that POV.
Refusal of transfer would be a good defence for non payment of MFs.

ps. Anticipated breach is not an acceptable cause of action or excuse for nonacceptance.

 

[theo]

It's ALREADY happening...

<snip> "Why is this wrong? ask the owners of the other weeks at the resort when they see their mf going up and up to cover the weeks where no one is paying."

If the HOAs, Borads of Directors, and Managers of the resorts do not bring value to the owners I see this happening more and more. If it gets to the point where an owner cannot or will not continue to pay MFs, there will be more and more defaults, adding to the expense to other owners.

I don't know the answer but something needs to be done, I believe.

As for resorts not recognizing a corporate owner, what right do they have to say who can own their units?

It's hard to "blame" HOA's / BOD's for this predicament. In difficult economic times, people will do what they have to do --- including abandoning financial obligations and responsibilities. Meanwhile, the expenses of operating and maintaining a resort continue unabated (and in fact, usually increase), with each passing day. It's a genuine dilemma --- and no one has any easy answers, magic beans or enchanted pixie dust to solve the problem.

You raise a good question about "corporate" ownerships. I claim no knowledge or expertise whatsoever in this particular arena, but I do personally know of resorts (including some of mine) that will adamantly refuse to acknowledge any deed / ownership in which there is not a real, specifically named individual grantee, with a real and verifiable address. I certainly can't answer the legal question of "what right do they have?", but what they clearly can do is to simply refuse unit occupancy unless there is a name and a paid up fees on the ownership's account...

 

[ronparise]

It's hard to "blame" HOA's / BOD's for this predicament. In difficult economic times, people will do what they have to do --- including abandoning financial obligations and responsibilities. Meanwhile, the expenses of operating and maintaining a resort continue unabated (and in fact, usually increase), with each passing day. It's a genuine dilemma --- and no one has any easy answers, magic beans or enchanted pixie dust to solve the problem.

You raise a good question about "corporate" ownerships. I claim no knowledge or expertise whatsoever in this particular arena, but I do personally know of resorts (including some of mine) that will adamantly refuse to acknowledge any deed / ownership in which there is not a real, specifically named individual grantee, with a real and verifiable address. I certainly can't answer the legal question of "what right do they have?", but what they clearly can do is to simply refuse unit occupancy unless there is a name and a paid up fees on the ownership's account...

I think Theo has hit the nail on the head

A board probably cant or wont interfere with the transfer of ownership but they can (subject to their rules) deny use of the asset...I know of many condos in age restricted communities where a young person owns the unit, but they cant live there because the rules require at least one resident be over the age of 55

Same with Timeshares. Anyone can own it, but you need to be 21 or 25 and your dues must be paid to use it

But of course the PCCs dont care, they didnt intend to use it in the first place

I do think however that a board can refuse to recognize a new deed (if the new ownership violates their rules) and continue to send maintenance fees to the old owner...They would probably have to back off if challenged in court...but what a mess...and again the PCCs dont care, they already have their money


Oh! and the answer is (and i know I sound like a broken record here) The HOAs should accept deed backs. That way they can control who the next owner will be