Buying Additional Points...resale of course.

[justliked]

Hello all,

Thank you for all that post. I have learned so much from reading your threads.

I was given 84,000 points in Orlando late last year and only had to pay for the closing. (Fees $48 per month) So far we have stayed at National Harbor and will be staying at Edisto late summer. We would like to buy another small contract/deed to give us more time/points and try to keep maintenance fees below $100 combined.

We don't care about having advanced reservations (we tend to travel to places off season/low season to miss crowds) and we love to travel to different places every year, so is there any problem on searching for resale points looking at only who has the lowest maintenance fees and not care about where the "home" resort is? Afraid I am missing something. Any input would be helpful.

Thank you in advance.
Kevin

 

[ronparise]

Hello all,

Thank you for all that post. I have learned so much from reading your threads.

I was given 84,000 points in Orlando late last year and only had to pay for the closing. (Fees $48 per month) So far we have stayed at National Harbor and will be staying at Edisto late summer. We would like to buy another small contract/deed to give us more time/points and try to keep maintenance fees below $100 combined.

We don't care about having advanced reservations (we tend to travel to places off season/low season to miss crowds) and we love to travel to different places every year, so is there any problem on searching for resale points looking at only who has the lowest maintenance fees and not care about where the "home" resort is? Afraid I am missing something. Any input would be helpful.

Thank you in advance.
Kevin

Nope, not missing a thing...if arp is not needed, than points are points and mf is the prime consideration. But also be aware of the purchase price (incl transfer fees and closing costs and compensating the previous owner for mf he has paid to date) This so called "sunk money" although just a one time thing, if you were to spread them over the next 5 or 10 years can add to the cost of your vacations significantly

There are some here that will advise you to avoid the newer resorts where there is an active sales force. The expectation being that when the sales force leaves..mf will go way up. I disagree and firmly believe that if mf is low now it is likely to remain low (relative to the other resorts.

Generally speaking however the lower the mf the higher price a contract will command. It is for that reason I generally wont but San Francisco, or National Harbor. Prices to buy seem to go higher than Im willing to pay.

I see some of the best deals in the converted fixed weeks; . Prime season, lock offs or 3 bedrooms. These convert to the most points and mf is the same as the off season weeks at the same resort...eg a lock off at Kingsgate in prime season is 238000 points and the mf works out to be under $4/1000 points...some of the Hawaii weeks are even better.

 

[SOS8260456]

There are some here that will advise you to avoid the newer resorts where there is an active sales force. The expectation being that when the sales force leaves..mf will go way up. I disagree and firmly believe that if mf is low now it is likely to remain low (relative to the other resorts.


I see some of the best deals in the converted fixed weeks; . Prime season, lock offs or 3 bedrooms. These convert to the most points and mf is the same as the off season weeks at the same resort...eg a lock off at Kingsgate in prime season is 238000 points and the mf works out to be under $4/1000 points...some of the Hawaii weeks are even better.

I agree with everything that Ron posted except I am one who disagrees about the maintenance fees at the newer resorts. Things can and do change though, but I know Atlantic City in particular, when it was in active sales, Wyndham subsidized the maintenance fees, to entice the owners to buy and then bailed on them later creating increased maintenance fees within a few years of opening. Once the Wyndham forums are back to normal, there should be files there showing the history of the fees at the various resorts.

In addition to the converted weeks Ron mentioned, there are also a few in Fort Lauderdale FL. It was either Palm Aire or Sea Gardens that had some great converted week maintenance fee ratios.

 

[vacationhopeful]

....In addition to the converted weeks Ron mentioned, there are also a few in Fort Lauderdale FL. It was either Palm Aire or Sea Gardens that had some great converted week maintenance fee ratios.

Sea Gardens - converted lockoff Prime season in the Waterfalls section. Of course, they had a special assessment for last year and this year.

 

[pacodemountainside]

It is a no brainer what happens when subsidizes stop.Ye Olde Dreaded Special assessment!


Obviously Developer says no reserve required at new resort as contractors, manufacturer, appliance provider, etc. provide warranty coverage for a couple years and I will be outta de picture in couple years when rooms need refurbishing.


If reserve fund portion of HOA fee is not around a $1.00(20%) ball park say just $.30 and reserve fund cash in bank is a couple bucks a special assessment is guaranteed!

You can bet the farm and bippies(bring back Rowan and Martin). :whoopie:


Page 23 of 2011 10K SEC filing

" Owners of vacation ownership interests pay annual maintenance fees to the property owners' associations responsible for managing the applicable resorts or to the Clubs. The annual maintenance fee associated with the average vacation ownership interest purchased ranges from approximately $400 to approximately $900. These fees generally are used to renovate and replace furnishings, pay operating, maintenance and cleaning costs, pay management fees and expenses, and cover taxes (in some states), insurance and other related costs. Wyndham Vacation Ownership, as the owner of unsold inventory at resorts or unsold interests in the Clubs, also pays maintenance fees in accordance with the legal requirements of the states or jurisdictions in which the resorts are located.

*********
In addition, at certain newly-developed resorts, Wyndham Vacation Ownership sometimes enters into subsidy agreements with the property owners' associations to cover costs that otherwise would be covered by annual maintenance fees payable with respect to vacation ownership interests that have not yet been sold."
******************************

See page 6 of PTVO Financials for info on WVR subsidy to CWA! Official name is Additional Developer Assessments(ADA)! Was $2.5 million for 2010(last year available)!

 

[VivianLynne]

Sea Gardens has 5 HOAs onsite. Four (4) have existed for years before Wyndham and tend to have been CHEAP in the past all on their own. Original kitchens and ugly tile flooring, $4 miniblinds, dollar store pots & pans ... if it was broke, patch it til it crumbled.

After Hurricane Hugo blew the roofs off North and South Oceanview, then Wyndham could start to wrangle control (and votes of the defunk units) to renovate the resort. Yes, there have been large special assessments - but the units have never looked better and each HOA has a distinct look.

Ocean Palms was the HOA which Wyndham took over from the developer and has both Fixed Week and UDI owners. The other HOAs are Fixed Weeks with some converted Fixed Weeks into Club Wyndham Plus and Club Wyndham Access.

 

[ronparise]

It is a no brainer what happens when subsidizes stop.Ye Olde Dreaded Special assessment!


Obviously Developer says no reserve required at new resort as contractors, manufacturer, appliance provider, etc. provide warranty coverage for a couple years and I will be outta de picture in couple years when rooms need refurbishing.


If reserve fund portion of HOA fee is not around a $1.00(20%) ball park say just $.30 and reserve fund cash in bank is a couple bucks a special assessment is guaranteed!

You can bet the farm and bippies(bring back Rowan and Martin). :whoopie:


Page 23 of 2011 10K SEC filing

" Owners of vacation ownership interests pay annual maintenance fees to the property owners' associations responsible for managing the applicable resorts or to the Clubs. The annual maintenance fee associated with the average vacation ownership interest purchased ranges from approximately $400 to approximately $900. These fees generally are used to renovate and replace furnishings, pay operating, maintenance and cleaning costs, pay management fees and expenses, and cover taxes (in some states), insurance and other related costs. Wyndham Vacation Ownership, as the owner of unsold inventory at resorts or unsold interests in the Clubs, also pays maintenance fees in accordance with the legal requirements of the states or jurisdictions in which the resorts are located.

*********
In addition, at certain newly-developed resorts, Wyndham Vacation Ownership sometimes enters into subsidy agreements with the property owners' associations to cover costs that otherwise would be covered by annual maintenance fees payable with respect to vacation ownership interests that have not yet been sold."
******************************

See page 6 of PTVO Financials for info on WVR subsidy to CWA! Official name is Additional Developer Assessments(ADA)! Was $2.5 million for 2010(last year available)!

Paco,

but nowhere in what you quoted do you see anything that allows the new HOA to not start building reserves. Wyndham pays into thr HOA to support it "to cover costs that otherwise would be covered by annual maintenance fees payable with respect to vacation ownership interests that have not yet been sold." and that includes reserves

 

[Tia]

Trying to figure this out, to make clear to me, Reserve fund $1.00 (20%) of what? Just $.30 is what ?

Have a Wyndam resort formerly part of the Equivest system. We just paid a special assessment and there are owners who preferred paying it that way, though others like me disagree.

.............

If reserve fund portion of HOA fee is not around a $1.00(20%) ball park say just $.30 and reserve fund cash in bank is a couple bucks a special assessment is guaranteed!

You can bet the farm and bippies(bring back Rowan and Martin). :whoopie:


Page 23 of 2011 10K SEC filing

" Owners of vacation ownership interests pay annual maintenance fees to the property owners' associations responsible for managing the applicable resorts or to the Clubs. The annual maintenance fee associated with the average vacation ownership interest purchased ranges from approximately $400 to approximately $900. These fees generally are used to renovate and replace furnishings, pay operating, maintenance and cleaning costs, pay management fees and expenses, and cover taxes (in some states), insurance and other related costs. Wyndham Vacation Ownership, as the owner of unsold inventory at resorts or unsold interests in the Clubs, also pays maintenance fees in accordance with the legal requirements of the states or jurisdictions in which the resorts are located.

*********
In addition, at certain newly-developed resorts, Wyndham Vacation Ownership sometimes enters into subsidy agreements with the property owners' associations to cover costs that otherwise would be covered by annual maintenance fees payable with respect to vacation ownership interests that have not yet been sold."
******************************

See page 6 of PTVO Financials for info on WVR subsidy to CWA! Official name is Additional Developer Assessments(ADA)! Was $2.5 million for 2010(last year available)!

 

[pacodemountainside]

Paco,

but nowhere in what you quoted do you see anything that allows the new HOA to not start building reserves. Wyndham pays into thr HOA to support it "to cover costs that otherwise would be covered by annual maintenance fees payable with respect to vacation ownership interests that have not yet been sold." and that includes reserves

Ron:

There are two parts to this. Around 2003-04 law was changed to require Developer to pay MF on his unsold inventory. This wiped Developers out and is when nightly rentals were instituted and to everyone. Of course, us owners suffered as this resulted in much more wear and tear due to turn over and non-owners not worrying about damages. There were several articles in Time Share magazines addressing this and a couple resorts more or less came out and said the big increase in MF was due to having to refurbish units after 3-4 years rather than 4-5!

" Wyndham Vacation Ownership, as the owner of unsold inventory at resorts or unsold interests in the Clubs, also pays maintenance fees in accordance with the legal requirements of the states or jurisdictions in which the resorts are located."

Of course, "new" HOA is free to budget as they see fit. The problem is they generally stick with last year and increase a few bucks for inflation. No zero based budgeting here! If Developer is paying cash would probably be noticeable. But, say Developer is paying for temporary extra front desk staff, or pays huge amount for renting space sales is using for just a couple years, or has windows washed and carpet steam cleaned every month, etc. Then harder to notice.

Although my experience has been mostly with Condos(although time shares are basically Condos divided into 52 Intervals and furnished) many Boards and owners do not understand relationship of special assessments and MF and that fully funded reserves are sound business practice.!

" In addition, at certain newly-developed resorts, Wyndham Vacation Ownership sometimes enters into subsidy agreements with the property owners' associations to cover costs that otherwise would be covered by annual maintenance fees payable with respect to vacation ownership interests that have not yet been sold."

 

[pacodemountainside]

Trying to figure this out, to make clear to me, Reserve fund $1.00 (20%) of what? Just $.30 is what ?

Have a Wyndam resort formerly part of the Equivest system. We just paid a special assessment and there are owners who preferred paying it that way, though others like me disagree.

TIA:

Sorry I confused you!

CWA "Membership Assessment" is $4.89(round to $5.00 to make math easy)! It is based on raw average of HOA fees and special assessments for the 56+ resorts that have deeds deposited with it! For discussion purposes I am using as the best estimate of average Wyndham HOA fee, although Main Man states they range from around $400 to around $900 per unit. I assume he is talking about typical unit!



Given that over a 10 year period it is going to cost so much to operate a resort although no one can accurately predict to probably even nearest million. Just look at variances in actual vs budget for your resorts for this year!. However, that is what budgets are about. One uses best info available and puts it down on paper. The secret then is to review and ADJUST based on what actually happens. Same with reserves. Experts can come up with reasonable estimates. The other factor is insurance especially disasters and betterment. We all self insure, think deductibles on house and car. Ideally money would be put in savings account, but generally break out the credit card or home equity loan. HOA cannot do this so if no cash reserve then a special assessment.


Looking at MF calculator on Wyndham web site which is coming back to life $1.00 appears to be ball park for reserve amounts. My resorts average $1.04. Hence taking $5.00 average HOA fee from above I come up with a buck or 20% ballpark! The $.30 was about the lowest reserve fee I kinda recall seeing!

As far as special assessments vs pay as you go I am with you! My experience has been mostly with condos or communities with HOAs where one is likely to sell and move every so often while time shares are more long term. For some reason buyers tend to fixate on how much MF are, so Board members who are neighbors do keep low. The problem and what I feel is unfair is say neighbor sells after say 5 years and new buyer gets hit with big special assessment in year 6 or 7. And, some people live pay check to pay check. If they know what MF is can adjust TGIF to make sure they can pay. A $3K special assessment can force them to sell!


Flip side, once a special assessment has been paid and Board cussed out, MF remains low and it is easier to sell.