Wydham maintenance fees...

[dqdude]

I couldn't find this anywhere...

What is the trend with maintenance fees in the wyndham network. Are they increasing each year? How much on average?

 

[timeos2]

Fees change - usually up

Nearly all resorts /systems are having increases in annal fees. What do you know of (insurance, utilities, labor, hard goods) that are going down? The resorts have to pay those costs just as we do.

Wyndham costs, while up, haven't been anywhere near as bad as many other "brand names" like Marriott, Starwood and others have recently been prone to. However at individual Wyndham resorts - say Kingsgate as one I'm familiar with - there have been significant special assessments. These are in many ways worse than regular fee increases as they tend to be in the high hundreds or even thousands of dollars and reflect poor planning. They also are due in a short time frame and may come at unexpected & inconvenient times.

No one likes increases planned (reserves) or surprise (special assessments) but it is certain that all resorts need to be maintained and upgraded or else they are going to deteriorate and lose appeal for both owners and guests. So Wyndham fees in general are up but may still not fully reflect the true needs of the resorts. Predicting which resorts are properly funded or under-funded is not a easy thing to do. You have to look at the history of fees, the history (or lack) of improvements/renovations and special assessments to try to decide where the true value for the money really is. There is no magic way to know for certain.

 

[dqdude]

Of course maintenance fees are going to increase. I didn't think I implied that they shouldn't.

I simply asked what trend...if any...Wyndham fees have been increasing. I believe there are threads going in some of the other company forum listing increases.

I have also considered assesments & picked a fairly new resort as way to push these back as long as possible. I prefer an updated property so fees & assesments are fine...just trying to get a handle on how much I can expect the maintenance fees to increase on average.

 

[timeos2]

I have also considered assesments & picked a fairly new resort as way to push these back as long as possible. I prefer an updated property so fees & assesments are fine...just trying to get a handle on how much I can expect the maintenance fees to increase on average.

New resorts under the Wyndham banner are the most likely to be hit with big increases as they tend to be subsidized for the sales period and reserves severely under-funded also to help sales.

If one of those is where you bought you can reasonably expect a serious jump in fees as well as a special assessment or two at the 6-10 year point in the resort age. It has happened at many Wyndhams in the past and will most likely occur again as the current, newer & currently subsidized resorts age. During the early years fees will rise very little - perhaps as low as 1-2% or even be steady. But then expect a double whammy when the true costs hit 5-8 years down the road.

 

[Ridewithme38]

There is a spreadsheet on a different forum a "wyndhams forum" that has all the "atozed" stuff on this topic(i don't think i can link here) that lists the MF's for each resort going back years and years....From what i've seen, i've guesstimated 10% a year as an average(but i over estimate just in case)...now some years it will be much more AND it will have a special accessment and some years will be less...the best thing you can do is look up any resort your thinking about buying on that spreadsheet and get your own guesstimate PLUS check for special accessments in the last 5 years...

MF's increases are something everyone has to account for...the only way to really do that math behind ownership is to calculate...the costs over ownership vs the comparable costs of hotel rentals over that same time...and you can't get that first number, without calculating increasing MF's

 

[dqdude]

I'll do some more looking at the other forums you referenced...

Thanks to everyone for the responses

There is a spreadsheet on a different forum a "wyndhams forum" that has all the "atozed" stuff on this topic(i don't think i can link here) that lists the MF's for each resort going back years and years....From what i've seen, i've guesstimated 10% a year as an average(but i over estimate just in case)...now some years it will be much more AND it will have a special accessment and some years will be less...the best thing you can do is look up any resort your thinking about buying on that spreadsheet and get your own guesstimate PLUS check for special accessments in the last 5 years...

MF's increases are something everyone has to account for...the only way to really do that math behind ownership is to calculate...the costs over ownership vs the comparable costs of hotel rentals over that same time...and you can't get that first number, without calculating increasing MF's

 

[ausman]

Here is a link:

http://forums.atozed.com/index.php?sid=17181c3579337cbc188695c27fb62758

 

[Timeshare Von]

Everything is going up . . . the amount is controlled by the POA/HOA's and not Wyndham so to say "average in the Wyndham network" is about as pointless as to say "average in RCI" (or II for that matter).

I have dumped two of my three Wyndham ownerships this past year, not so much due to MF/SA increases as changes in our vacation preferences and some poor services issues at Kingsgate.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Everything is going up . . . the amount is controlled by the POA/HOA's and not Wyndham so to say "average in the Wyndham network" is about as pointless as to say "average in RCI" (or II for that matter).

I have dumped two of my three Wyndham ownerships this past year, not so much due to MF/SA increases as changes in our vacation preferences and some poor services issues at Kingsgate.

Well thats not 100%...you can always figure averages....i mean i'm sure there are outliers...but those can be accounted for....on average i've found to look for Special accessment charges every 5yrs...now do that mean every resort does it at 5yrs? no, some never do, some will do it 3 times in a 10yr period(Kingsgate?)...but when accounting for outliers....the average breaks down to about every 5yrs

Its like looking at the average prices of products at a grocery chain, vs another grocery chain...sure you'll find with sales some products are free, and they may have specialty items for hundreds of dollars...but cutting those out...you can still determine if ones average prices are higher then another's...and the wyndham network is has alot less products then the average supermarket

And actually if you could calculate the MF raises across II or RCI you'd have a MUCH larger sampling, and get a much more accurate percentage

 

[dqdude]

Bashams link to the MF spreadsheet was very helpful in reviewing the trends over the last 4-5 years. That is all I really wanted to see anyway. The fee's I am being quoted are accurate as per the chart.

Is there a cap on how much mf's can go up each year? What is stop a company from raising mf's 15-20% years as a way to improve their revenue stream? Are they (the ts companies) contractually bound to account for how the mf's are spent? Are they contractually allowed to profit from mf's?

 

[timeos2]

Is there a cap on how much mf's can go up each year? What is stop a company from raising mf's 15-20% years as a way to improve their revenue stream? Are they (the ts companies) contractually bound to account for how the mf's are spent? Are they contractually allowed to profit from mf's?

No cap unless the state where the resort is located has one. There is no limit to what they can charge and it is a serious risk when the operator of the system is also the management and controls the Board(s). Profit from maintenance fees? Absolutely! In fact in the Marriott world that appears to be the primary source of income for the "new" spin off of the timeshare group. You can be sure Wyndham is watching that and won't hesitate to make similar moves if they feel they can make money at it.

It is very dangerous to have all the power & control in one groups hands. We have now sold all our ownerships where the owners don't hold the control which unfortunately included our 2 weeks of points in Wyndham. We now have changed to renting our Wyndham resorts and as it turns out it is far cheaper and easier than owning the points was. Quite a turn a round from years ago when we bought. Back then the purchase cost (resale) and fees got us 4-6 or more trips per year at very low cost. The last couple years it changed and we were lucky to get 3-4 weeks use and the cost was well above what we could rent the same use for. It was time to get out so we did. The three year Kingsgate special assessments helped make the decision for us but it wasn't the only reason. The system changed and not for the better.

 

[Timeshare Von]

My point is that "averages" really don't matter and cannot be assumed to be indicative of what to expect in a newly acquired or purchase being considered.

 

[Timeshare Von]

. . . What is stop a company from raising mf's 15-20% years as a way to improve their revenue stream? Are they (the ts companies) contractually bound to account for how the mf's are spent? Are they contractually allowed to profit from mf's?

Again, it is typically the POA/HOA that controls the financial budgeting and therefore MF's being charged at timeshares. The exception would be newly developed resorts that still have the developer in control of majority interest in the ownership.

The POA/HOA account is generally maintained outside of the company's (i.e., Wyndham's) financial accounting. The money doesn't belong to or profits benefit Wyndham the corporation. The money is an asset of the resort's ownership (POA/HOA).

 

[dqdude]

Got it...Thanks!

Again, it is typically the POA/HOA that controls the financial budgeting and therefore MF's being charged at timeshares. The exception would be newly developed resorts that still have the developer in control of majority interest in the ownership.

The POA/HOA account is generally maintained outside of the company's (i.e., Wyndham's) financial accounting. The money doesn't belong to or profits benefit Wyndham the corporation. The money is an asset of the resort's ownership (POA/HOA).

 

[Timeshare Von]

. . . Back then the purchase cost (resale) and fees got us 4-6 or more trips per year at very low cost. The last couple years it changed and we were lucky to get 3-4 weeks use and the cost was well above what we could rent the same use for. It was time to get out so we did. The three year Kingsgate special assessments helped make the decision for us but it wasn't the only reason. The system changed and not for the better.

The untimely change of RCI to their TP system also adversely affected value of Kingsgate in my opinion. As a fixed week owner of a 3BR lockoff, I used to routinely get RCI trades into decent 2BR Hawaii resorts affiliated with Wyndham. I didn't see that happening again, especially using the 1BR side for the trade. I didn't mind paying the 3 years of SA's and then the $764/yr in MF's if I was going to be able to continue to get two weeks for one MF if one of the exchanges would be Hawaii. With that seeingly "gone" . . . no reason to pay that much for the priviledge of staying in Wmsburg when I do want to go there (which is typically every couple/few years).

I was happy to find someone who was interested in acquiring this TS ownership from me.