Grupo Mayan--[2009 thread--revisited Jan. 2011]

[pjrose]

. . . Any posts that get personal should be deleted. Period. . . .

I'd rather see this than locking a thread.

 

[ondeadlin]

Yes, I think sometimes certain elements want to get a thread locked, so that it disappears and can't be discussed.

I think consistent deletions would quickly cause people to excise certain behaviors from their posting repertoire, and that deletions would then become fairly rare.

 

[mikenk]

There are a small contingent of folks who work very, very hard to drive off or discredit people who disagree with them about a small select number of subjects. Safety concerns in Mexico in general and the Grand Mayan properties in particular are two of those subjects. Some of the folks involved obviously have a financial interest in promoting both. They're not content to simply post an opposite viewpoint without attacking those who disagree with them.

I know you meant this one way, but it works both ways. There are a number of people who work very, very hard to harbor unfounded fears about Mexico safety and to bash the Grand mayan resorts just for the fun of it and to get reaction. IMHO, they deserve to get discredited.

One thing I believe is if someone tells you something that you have personal experience otherwise, it is perfectly OK to challenge it.

Mike

 

[ondeadlin]

Mike,

I agree it works both ways.

But it's completely possible to simply say, "That's not my experience. Here's my experience ..." without ridiculing someone else's opinion and basically saying they're too cheap or lowbrow to enjoy Grand Mayan (which has happened multiple times on this thread).

For instance, isn't there a huge difference between saying "I don't think anyone bashes the GM resorts just for the fun of it. They do it because they've had bad experiences. It's just not that much fun to do for amusement, really."

... or writing a sneering post filled with adjectives that suggest anyone holding such an opinion not only has two screws loose, but is so far below both of us on the food chain that it's questionable why we're even talking to them on a message board.

Sometimes we have to accept that what we view as "unfounded" is just our own personal opinion, and there is no plain and simple "correct" answer. That seems to be the No. 1 issue here.

 

[pjrose]

Hypothetical examples:

"I disagree, I think the resort ....." That is about the resort.

vs

"You .... and your ...." That is about a TUGger.

I respectfully suggest that in cases such as the second example, mods strike that part of the post and insert a reminder to stay on topic.

 

[mikenk]

There are a number of different type of posts on this and every forum. There are spammers - those that fire for effect (they do exist on TUG). IMHO, they should be discredited. There are people who state things that are just wrong - they should be corrected. There are ranters; they should be just ignored. There are posts on opinions; they should be discussed openly and fairly as this is what it is supposed to be all about. The trick is knowing which you are dealing with as they all tend to blend together on many threads. I must admit, I react differently on my posts depending on my interpretation of intent. I suspect most will do the same.

However, no reason ever to get personal.

Mike

 

[sally13]

people ,people people...

Are you all not aware of what is going on here??...ondeadline,greg ,prose??

full moon folks...emotions are at a peak!!It is great these topics are coming out.. but at times like these it is better to break out the merlot and relax...heck were not going to solve all the worlds problems tonight..

although if your up for it..have at it!!I agree with you ondeadline..Threads are locked too often....

Mike...hope all is well..you must have a birthday in september/october...your a peacemaker for sure!!

 

[Karen G]

I respectfully suggest that in cases such as the second example, mods strike that part of the post and insert a reminder to stay on topic.

As the moderator of this forum, I'd like to give you my opinion. We're all adults here and I think we can have conversations and express our experiences and opinions politely. I actually do have a life beyond TUG and I am a volunteer, not a paid employee. I don't always have time to read every post on every thread every day 24 hrs. a day. Sometimes by the time I get to a thread it may have several posts in it. I may not have time to go through each post and pick and choose what to delete and what to leave, & whatever I do I'm sure there will be those who'd love to jump on the bandwagon and criticize the edits or closures I've made. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it!

Even if a green light appears on a post I've made, I may or may not be reading TUG at the time. I have TUG open on my computer all the time whether I'm looking at it or not.

I was thinking about the contentious discussions we've had lately and trying to figure out why there is such "passion" about Grupo Mayan resorts. At first glance the heated arguments make about as much sense as two people arguing about which dessert is the best--chocolate cake or banana cream pie. Each one likes his dessert and can't understand why the other person doesn't see it his way. How could one be so stupid as to prefer pie over cake or vice versa.

Then I came to the conclusion that maybe those who are so adamant about the virtues of GM are more than just happy owners or exchangers--maybe they have a financial interest in GM. Maybe they are trying to sell or rent their unit(s) and they want to have only glowing reports given and not negative reports allowed. Just a thought.

Whatever the motivation, can't we just all get along.

 

[MuranoJo]

Then I came to the conclusion that maybe those who are so adamant about the virtues of GM are more than just happy owners or exchangers--maybe they have a financial interest in GM. Maybe they are trying to sell or rent their unit(s) and they want to have only glowing reports given and not negative reports allowed. Just a thought.

Karen,

You say this after you deleted my post a few nights ago when I asked why a thread had been closed?
I know moderators have their hands full and are volunteers, and we sincerely appreciate this. So now I know I can't question a moderator's decision, so how far can I go in responding to your posting?

 

[Karen G]

Karen,

You say this after you deleted my post a few nights ago when I asked why a thread had been closed?
I know moderators have their hands full and are volunteers, and we sincerely appreciate this. So now I know I can't question a moderator's decision, so how far can I go in responding to your posting?

As far as you dare. But, follow the rules:

Be Courteous
As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!

Honor changes entered by moderators
You may not alter, edit, or delete any edits introduced into your message by a Moderator or Administrator. This is considered a serious offense and may result in loss of posting privileges.

In addition, do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.

 

[mikenk]

I was thinking about the contentious discussions we've had lately and trying to figure out why there is such "passion" about Grupo Mayan resorts. At first glance the heated arguments make about as much sense as two people arguing about which dessert is the best--chocolate cake or banana cream pie. Each one likes his dessert and can't understand why the other person doesn't see it his way. How could one be so stupid as to prefer pie over cake or vice versa.

Then I came to the conclusion that maybe those who are so adamant about the virtues of GM are more than just happy owners or exchangers--maybe they have a financial interest in GM. Maybe they are trying to sell or rent their unit(s) and they want to have only glowing reports given and not negative reports allowed. Just a thought.

Whatever the motivation, can't we just all get along.

Karen

I have also thought about that regarding this forum. Trust me, the defenders of the Grand Mayan resorts on TUG are just owners - nothing more. There are two other GM focused forums where most of us also belong where we are quite vocal on things we want changed within the system. Yesterday afternoon, I visited with member services to complain - including on the sales force. However, in spite of the warts, we all seem to have the best vacations in these resorts and we love Mexico.

Speaking for myself, I react a certain way based on how I am treated. If someone critiques something I care about, I react based on how I perceive their motivation and knowledge. I can thank them and learn from it, we can discuss it, or I can challenge if I perceive their motivation or knowledge does not give them that right.

I believe that on TUG, there is quite a few people who just don't like Mexico that for some reason feel they need to post on Mexico forums whenever they have the opportunity. In my judgement, this is wrong motivation usually coupled with little real knowledge; I go into challenge mode. I think your decision to move the Mexico safety issue to a sticky was great as they now don't have a subject title and new thread to attack with.

The same can be said on the Grand Mayan resorts. There are a group on here that will jump into any thread to bash the GM system because of their sales tactics and belittle the owners the best they can. The sales tactics are well known and old news; no one defends that but there is never any leeway to discuss with these folks on the good points. For me, that is bad motivation coupled with generally no knowledge, I go into challenge mode.

In reality, Grupo Mayan has created an ownership model that is innovative and avoids many of the current timeshare issues. I have tried to start in the past a discussion to explain and discuss that model on the buying, selling forum. It was impossible to do so as the GM bashers immediately turned it into a field day on the sales tactics: evil there, evil everywhere.

As a moderator, maybe you need to do what you did with the safety. Make it a sticky to allow ongoing discussion but makes it harder for spam focused threads. Maybe, make a sticky just for sales force related GM issues to free up other discussion.

BTW, I appreciate the work moderators do; tough job.

Mike

 

[mikenk]

Karen,

After a bit more reflection, if you did make a sticky just on GM sales tactics, it might do several positive things:

1: It would allow other more meaningful GM discussions. Any diverting post would be moved.

2: It would give new tuggers a quick place to review what to avoid and how to approach it if they choose to do so.

3: We know GM monitors this forum, it would give them an easy access to posts and to see severity of impact.

4: many of us have through the sales process many time and can give pointers for people who decide to take or don't want to be bothered.

Anyway, just a thought.
Mike

 

[ondeadlin]

Karen,

I appreciate your post and your perspective as a moderator. Thank you for the time you put in as a volunteer and, no, of course we can't ask you to read every post. I'm sorry if I came off as requesting that.

I think Mike has a good idea about a sticky concerning GM sales tactics.

Mike,

I appreciate that you have said there's no reason to get personal. That's all I'm arguing for, and it goes on too often on this forum. I'd also ask you to be a little more honest about the suggestion that "the defenders of the Grand Mayan resorts on TUG are just owners - nothing more." That quote is only partially accurate - some of the most contentious folks on the Mexico forum have websites where they make money renting timeshares. They have a different stake in the game IMO than a simple owner.

I'd suggest there's nothing wrong with going into challenge mode either, as long as you're not getting personal (and to your credit, you rarely do).

I will disagree with your contention that "The sales tactics are well known and old news; no one defends that but there is never any leeway to discuss with these folks on the good points. For me, that is bad motivation coupled with generally no knowledge, I go into challenge mode."

It's old news to you. It's not old news to the people who get abused every day. A lot of those people come to TUG seeking help and seeking to warn others. I'd suggest you should be more open to considering that perspective. Yes, it's old news to you and me. No, it's not old news to them.

 

[mikenk]

It's old news to you. It's not old news to the people who get abused every day. A lot of those people come to TUG seeking help and seeking to warn others. I'd suggest you should be more open to considering that perspective. Yes, it's old news to you and me. No, it's not old news to them.

I understand; that is why I suggested a sticky on that. The problem is that almost all Grand Mayan discussions seem to always get pulled into that discussion. That discussion is old news and does not need to be rehashed every time the GM resorts are mentioned in any thread. There have been many times on the buying selling forum, that the way Grupo Mayan works would be a constructive discussion; however, I just keep quiet as I fear it will totally derail the intent of the thread.

A personal example, we are now in Riviera Maya. One of our guests had a medical emergency - ended up in hospital - had to fly back home. The GM staff from the on-site doctor to the entire staff were great and genuinely caring. I thought of posting that as a thread on something positive, but chose against it as I know where it would have gone as a general posting.

Mike

 

[ondeadlin]

Again, I completely agree with you that a sticky might help. Thanks for the constructive back-and-forth.

 

[John Cummings]

Then I came to the conclusion that maybe those who are so adamant about the virtues of GM are more than just happy owners or exchangers--maybe they have a financial interest in GM. Maybe they are trying to sell or rent their unit(s) and they want to have only glowing reports given and not negative reports allowed. Just a thought.

Whatever the motivation, can't we just all get along.

I agree that many do have a vested interest but trust me, I have absolutely NO vested interest whatsoever in Grupo Mayan or any Mexican timeshares. In fact we have chosen not to visit Mexico period anymore. We skipped it last year and will no longer go there.

Having said that, I still believe that the Grand Mayans are excellent resorts with superb service.

 

[CatLovers]

However, no reason ever to get personal.

Glad to hear it Mike!

I consider post #28 such a post. It is a condescending post from someone who in reality knows very little about the subject - the cute little icons thrown in for effect. I'm sorry but that kind of rhetoric does not sit well with me.

Post #28 was mine. I can see how my comment rubbed you the wrong way, particularly given what I've learned in the last few days about the opposing sentiments regarding Grupo Mayan and their resorts. For the record, my comment was intended to reflect on Grupo Mayan and their management, and not any individual TUG member. However, suggesting that I "know very little about the subject" is inappropriate and disrespectful. You don't know me and what my knowledge and experiences are. Granted, less than two weeks ago, all I thought I was doing was submitting a review about my experience at GMNV, only to discover that I unknowingly stumbled into quite the firestorm. My knowledge comes from sources that are different than yours, and it is obviously contrary to your experiences, but it is no less real and no less valuable. You have suggested previously that I have just one data point to consider; I hope you now know that even though I have one first-hand data point, I have been the unexpected recipient of a deluge of second-hand data points, all of which are negative, and many of which don't just refer to the unethical sales practices at Grupo Mayan. Many (but not all) of the unsolicited emails that I have received (not as a result of my posting on TUG, but because I posted elsewhere) are from unhappy people who have been able to separate "sales" from "operations" and have been disappointed and disillusioned by both.

Anyway, as I have said several times before, my objective is not to change your mind nor to diminish the value of your experiences. But I would ask that you extend the same courtesy to me and to other people who don't have the same perspective on this situation as you do.

P.S. I hope you noticed that I haven't used any emoticons in this post (just dying to put a smiley face in here, but holding back ...)

 

[sally13]

Catlover...

With all due respect...Grupo Mayan not being a 1st class resort???

I agree,that you should be allowed to rant...Heck I enjoy A good rant every now and then!!

But ....facts are facts..Grupo has thousands and thousands of people that do not agree with you...

they can not all be smoking something can they??? : for GRUPO MAYAN!!...its not a cult ...its a timeshare!!

 

[tombo]

There are a lot of posts here talking about civility on this forum by the very people who are the meanest and rudest on a consisten basis (not naming any names so if you respond you must feel like you are guilty). There are mainly 3 subjects on TUG where you will get called names, belittled, ridiculed, and attacked if you post negative comments, and that is if you state that you don't like something associated with Disney, that you don't like Marriott, and worst of all here if you state anything negative about Mexico or a couple of the Mexican Timeshares.

It is sad for guests, first time Tuggers, and even regulars who get sold a timeshare by a salesman who lied about what they were selling because when the buyers come here to post their experience and want to get advice, all they get is attacked. If someone says the Grand Mayan ripped me off it is like you insulted somebody's momma. The bashers start with what happened to reading a contract, what happened to personal responsibility, what happened to common sense, you just couldn't afford it, you are an uneducated idiot, etc, etc, etc. I want to know what happened to people blaming the lying sales organization who tricks people into buying using lies and misrepresentation? Why defend a practice that is immoral and propbaly illegal? A verbal contract is enforceable in the US and possibly in Mexico too. Why defend the criminals and blame the vicitims?

If the poster defends themselves it is turned around by the attacker that they were attacked and they "Quote" the responses from the OP while ignoring where the fireworks actually started with their own posts. The OP can battle it out in an ever escalating rude discourse until the moderatoer steps in or simply quit posting and go away. Once they drive the OP from the forum they are happy and wait for the next victim to post here hoping for advice and sympathy so they can drive them forever from TUG too.

Facts: Mexico has a high crime rate. Yes I have been there and was never robbed or murdered, that doesn't mean that the high crime rate is not for real. New Orleans has a high crime rate and I have never been robbed or murdered there either, but it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US. Informing travelers about the dangers of both places has a place on TUG, and no one should be offended the statements were made. If I (or someone I read about ) get robbed getting on the Pirates of The Carribbean or at a mexican cantina I should be able to post about it without being attacked by Disney lovers or Mexico lovers.

Fact: Every owner, guest, and visitor who has been through a Mayan timeshare presentation can agree that the salesmen LIE to make sales. I can't count the lies I heard the last time, and they knew I own multiple timeshares. magine what they would have said if I knew nothing about it. The simple fact is that the lies work sometimes or they wouldn't do it. Don't attack the victim, attack the lying salesmen and the company that refuses to stop the immoral sales practice which takes advantage of many people who are simply too trusting. I fell sorry for the people (young or old, educated or not) who get home after the recission period has passed and are locked into a purchase that is nothing like they were promised it was.

I am going to get blasted now I am sure, but anyone who is honest including the posters here can start at the beginning of the thread and see that the OP was stating their feelings about what happened to them and not attacking anyone or being argumentative. That quickly degenerated to personal attacks and rude posts by Mayan/mexico lovers as it always does here. I don't think that threads should be locked, but there are some posters who need to have their posts deleted as soon as they get rude or abusive. If you re-read your posts and the shoe fits, try some compassion, understanding, and civility when someone posts something you disagree with in the future. This forum is the worst on TUG unless you want to come here and say warm fuzzy things about Mexican trips and resorts.

PS My son is spending a week in Mexico that I am paying for this spring for his honeymoon. I advised him that he needs to be careful where he goes because of the crime and drugs. I told him my feelings and let him choose a location from many choices including Mexico. He chose Mexico. So before you blast me as someone scared or who hates Mexico, I am paying for my son and his bride to spend a week on the Mayan Riviera.

 

[Karen G]

Thank you all for the thoughtful posts

I was really dreading opening this thread this morning. But, much to my delight, I'm seeing some really thoughtful and polite posts. I think the idea of creating a sticky for the GM is a good one. I'll let this thread run a little longer and then I'll move it to the top with a sticky.

Since today is my birthday & I've got a lot of fun stuff planned starting with my Zumba class and ending with a stay at one of the new hotels in City Center on the Las Vegas Strip:whoopie: , I'll put on my moderator hat when I return. In the meantime, play nice.

 

[LynnW]

I was really dreading opening this thread this morning. But, much to my delight, I'm seeing some really thoughtful and polite posts. I think the idea of creating a sticky for the GM is a good one. I'll let this thread run a little longer and then I'll move it to the top with a sticky.

Since today is my birthday & I've got a lot of fun stuff planned starting with my Zumba class and ending with a stay at one of the new hotels in City Center on the Las Vegas Strip:whoopie: , I'll put on my moderator hat when I return. In the meantime, play nice.

It's my birthday today as well Karen! Have fun celebrating. I will have to wait until tomorrow to celebrate because I'm too busy packing to go to Mazatlan tomorrow. It will be more fun to do it there anyway. Happy Birthday!

Lynn

 

[mikenk]

Facts: Mexico has a high crime rate. Yes I have been there and was never robbed or murdered, that doesn't mean that the high crime rate is not for real. New Orleans has a high crime rate and I have never been robbed or murdered there either, but it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US. Informing travelers about the dangers of both places has a place on TUG, and no one should be offended the statements were made. If I (or someone I read about ) get robbed getting on the Pirates of The Carribbean or at a mexican cantina I should be able to post about it without being attacked by Disney lovers or Mexico lovers.

For me, the problem with this paragraph is that it is misleading. Mexico is a huge country; people visit tourist areas not just Mexico. The crime rate in Juarez is sky high, my bet it is very low in Cabo. I would hate someone not to visit Cabo because of the crime rate elsewhere; it is unfair to the people in that really nice part of Mexico. Personally, whenever I see this type of post, i will always challenge it, but it should end there: one opinion and an opposing opinion.

Mike

 

[pjrose]

For me, the problem with this paragraph is that it is misleading. Mexico is a huge country; people visit tourist areas not just Mexico. The crime rate in Juarez is sky high, my bet it is very low in Cabo. I would hate someone not to visit Cabo because of the crime rate elsewhere; it is unfair to the people in that really nice part of Mexico. Personally, whenever I see this type of post, i will always challenge it, but it should end there: one opinion and an opposing opinion.

Mike

Not necessarily. A discussion can go back and forth and there can be various people with various opinions.

In my opinion a problem would occur (to use the subject matter of your example) if someone posted "Well you often post about high crime rates but you obviously understand the statistics..." Or "You have your head in the sand if you believe....." That's when the content has switched from the original topic to the TUGgers.

 

[buceo]

Facts: Mexico has a high crime rate. Yes I have been there and was never robbed or murdered, that doesn't mean that the high crime rate is not for real. New Orleans has a high crime rate and I have never been robbed or murdered there either, but it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US. Informing travelers...

I can't find a take home message in the comparison a country to a city in another country. But it happens on this site. I love NO; The French Quarter, can't imagine not going because of the crime in NO, it's a big city. We also go once or twice a year to MX's resort towns, maybe with guests and rent to 2-4 groups each year. That's a good deal of personal experience and feedback year after year. I don't get much, except frustrated, from occasional posts that arise from those that don't or no longer visit a destination and still feel they know best. How many plane loads of people have a great time in MX and New Orleans every day? How much does one need to study the crime stats in the US or MX if visiting The French Quarter or Playa del Carmen?

 

[mikenk]

Deleted post