WKV Devaluing

[SteelerGal]

Since MVC devalued WKV in Abound, will WKV eventually be devalued in Vistana/Westin as well? I know we don’t have a crystal ball however I’m looking at re-swizzling our portfolio?

 

[DavidnRobin]

Since MVC devalued WKV in Abound, will WKV eventually be devalued in Vistana/Westin as well? I know we don’t have a crystal ball however I’m looking at re-swizzling our portfolio?

How did MVC devalue WKV?
Our WKV P+ has an associated $0.44/CP. That is one of the better values in Abound for Vistana properties.


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[dioxide45]

I don't see how it could be devalued in VSN, the SOs won't change from here on out. I suspect that SO values will now be frozen in time forever. All that said, I would never sell or get rid of a VOI that is enrolled in Abound. They are impossible to replace, without a large expense, given the 8/9 cutoff date. Enrolled VOIs are the best of both worlds, no exchange fees in II, not a la cart fees, you can still book your week, use VSN or take Club Points. The best of all worlds.

 

[DanCali]

Since MVC devalued WKV in Abound, will WKV eventually be devalued in Vistana/Westin as well? I know we don’t have a crystal ball however I’m looking at re-swizzling our portfolio?

What could potentially happen over time is that some exchanges will be harder to get in Vistana. That can happen if owners at certain resorts (especially mandatory ones where 100% of owners are in Abound like WKORV/N and WSJ Phase 1) overwhelmingly prefer to trade their timeshares via Abound rather than VSN. I don't think it will happen and definitely not overnight, and new resales (not automatically in Abound) will actually reverse this trend somewhat. Personally, I think plenty of owners will be hesitant with Abound, and the deadline to elect points several months before the use year starts, something foreign to Vistana, will be new and inconvenient to many Vistana owners at first. To the extent it's harder to trade in VSN, resale values may be impacted over time.

As others points out, WKV Plat has a pretty good MF/CP ratio ($0.46). Some, including myself, feel it was short changed because it has Staroptions like Maui and rents out almost like Maui, but got 35% less Club Points. The 2BR also got substianlly less CPs than the combination of the two 1-BR units it is comprised off, which is also "unfair" in the Vistana world. I believe the combination of the two 1BR units is about 4700 points vs. 4050 for the 2BR lockoff, which is a large difference given the developer was selling the combination of the 2 smaller units for the same price as the lockoff.

That said, 4050 points can get you some good and "fair" exchanges outside of Hawaii. As an example, Marriott Frenchman's Cove on St. Thomas prices a 2BR at 4125 during most of their Platinum (winter/spring) season and 2975 during most of the summer. Without investigating rental values and such, to me that's a fair exchange. If I go in the winter/spring I just need 75 extra points and if I go in the summer, I can get 10 nights. in a 2BR. For things like 75 extra points, you can always attend a presentation and opt for the CP offer (usually ~400 points) instead of cash or Bonvoy points.

 

[timsi]

I don't see how it could be devalued in VSN, the SOs won't change from here on out. I suspect that SO values will now be frozen in time forever. All that said, I would never sell or get rid of a VOI that is enrolled in Abound. They are impossible to replace, without a large expense, given the 8/9 cutoff date. Enrolled VOIs are the best of both worlds, no exchange fees in II, not a la cart fees, you can still book your week, use VSN or take Club Points. The best of all worlds.

VKV has high valuation because of the VSN exchanges at low annual cost and the potential to rent way above the MF. I do not think the benefits you mentioned can offset the downside in case it becomes harder and harder to book through VSN (good weeks in Hawaii, spring break at Lagunamar etc) and if many prime WKV weeks end up in Abound so fewer people can make a profit by renting consistently.

To someone who does not intend to use Abound, the low MF/point relative to other options does not matter much and you will have to take into account the potential loss of value if you want to sell down the road.

 

[SteelerGal]

How did MVC devalue WKV?
Our WKV P+ has an associated $0.44/CP. That is one of the better values in Abound for Vistana properties.


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I meant the amount of points assigned into Abound.

 

[timsi]

no exchange fees in II

For no exchange fees, do you have to elect and use Abound points in II or the corporate II account should show no fees for any regular II week exchange into Marriott/Vistana?

 

[dioxide45]

For no exchange fees, do you have to elect and use Abound points in II or the corporate II account should show no fees for any regular II week exchange into Marriott/Vistana?

You can't exchange Abound points through II into other Marriott/Vistana resorts, so you have to be using a weeks based deposit and exchanging into Vistana to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott. I checked the other day and noticed that the exchange fees are still not waived in II.

 

[rickandcindy23]

What could potentially happen over time is that some exchanges will be harder to get in Vistana. That can happen if owners at certain resorts (especially mandatory ones where 100% of owners are in Abound like WKORV/N and WSJ Phase 1) overwhelmingly prefer to trade their timeshares via Abound rather than VSN. I don't think it will happen and definitely not overnight, and new resales (not automatically in Abound) will actually reverse this trend somewhat. Personally, I think plenty of owners will be hesitant with Abound, and the deadline to elect points several months before the use year starts, something foreign to Vistana, will be new and inconvenient to many Vistana owners at first. To the extent it's harder to trade in VSN, resale values may be impacted over time.

As others points out, WKV Plat has a pretty good MF/CP ratio ($0.46). Some, including myself, feel it was short changed because it has Staroptions like Maui and rents out almost like Maui, but got 35% less Club Points. The 2BR also got substianlly less CPs than the combination of the two 1-BR units it is comprised off, which is also "unfair" in the Vistana world. I believe the combination of the two 1BR units is about 4700 points vs. 4050 for the 2BR lockoff, which is a large difference given the developer was selling the combination of the 2 smaller units for the same price as the lockoff.

That said, 4050 points can get you some good and "fair" exchanges outside of Hawaii. As an example, Marriott Frenchman's Cove on St. Thomas prices a 2BR at 4125 during most of their Platinum (winter/spring) season and 2975 during most of the summer. Without investigating rental values and such, to me that's a fair exchange. If I go in the winter/spring I just need 75 extra points and if I go in the summer, I can get 10 nights. in a 2BR. For things like 75 extra points, you can always attend a presentation and opt for the CP offer (usually ~400 points) instead of cash or Bonvoy points.

There is the "skim" that Marriott owners talk about, the higher points it takes to book the one bedroom and studio separate. I feel that is a definite devaluing of SO's in the Marriott system, if it becomes a thing in SO's.

Does anyone know if that will be the case? I wonder because I planned to rent the studio every year as 7 nights for each week.

 

[dioxide45]

There is the "skim" that Marriott owners talk about, the higher points it takes to book the one bedroom and studio separate. I feel that is a definite devaluing of SO's in the Marriott system, if it becomes a thing in SO's.

Does anyone know if that will be the case? I wonder because I planned to rent the studio every year as 7 nights for each week.

We see no indication that any changes will happen to the StarOption charts.

 

[DanCali]

There is the "skim" that Marriott owners talk about, the higher points it takes to book the one bedroom and studio separate. I feel that is a definite devaluing of SO's in the Marriott system, if it becomes a thing in SO's.

Does anyone know if that will be the case? I wonder because I planned to rent the studio every year as 7 nights for each week.

First, if you book your studio as home resort then SOs don't come into play at all. You're guaranteed a week.

Second, I don't foresee changes in the SO charts in VSN. It's an exchange with engrained features that work well and there is really no reason to tinker with that. It's not like they will build new phases at WSJ and they need to give the entire resort more SOs so they can sell new product better.

Lastly, what you described is not "skim" but rather a feature of Abound. In Abound, which is priced more like hotels, the "cost" of booking a studio + a 1BR unit will be higher than booking a 2BR unit. But, equivalently, the smaller larger units at WKV (or Maui) also get more points combined than the 2BR unit alone. That's what I was referring to in my post which you cited when I said I'm not happy as a 2BR owner when I could have bought small and large 1BR units for the same price and been about 700 points better off in Abound annually. But that's not "skim".

Skim is the number of points you get for your week, whatever size it might be, compared to average number of points it takes to book that same unit for a week in its deeded season. In Vistana, there is no "skim" because you get exactly the number of points it takes to book a week in your season (and all weeks are priced the same, to make things simple). In Abound it will usually be 5%-7% less. The equivalent in Vistana would be if the SO charts were the same, but a 2BR OV Maui got 138,000 SO (instead of 148,100) and the 1BR OV got 75,500 (instead of 81,000). You could still book your week as a home resort, but when you use SOs you'd find it harder to book 7 nights at "equivalent" resorts/seasons.

 

[dioxide45]

It's not like they will build new phases at WSJ and they need to give the entire resort more SOs so they can sell new product better.

I suspect any new buildings at any resorts will have their deeds placed into the Abound Trust. Since most resorts with unsold inventory all all Voluntary, Marriott doesn't have to put that inventory in to VSN and can hold it 100% for Abound based reservations. The big question is though, do they plan to ever finish building at those unfinished resorts; WDW, SBP, WRF?

 

[cubigbird]

I suspect any new buildings at any resorts will have their deeds placed into the Abound Trust. Since most resorts with unsold inventory all all Voluntary, Marriott doesn't have to put that inventory in to VSN and can hold it 100% for Abound based reservations. The big question is though, do they plan to ever finish building at those unfinished resorts; WDW, SBP, WRF?

You can add Westin Cancún to that. I’m hoping that it eventually lands into Aventuras but currently hasn’t and will no current plans to finish the remaining conversion. Could that all end up in Abound and not Aventuras?

 

[vacationtime1]

You can add Westin Cancún to that. I’m hoping that it eventually lands into Aventuras but currently hasn’t and will no current plans to finish the remaining conversion. Could that all end up in Abound and not Aventuras?

I would assume any unsold Lagunamar inventory will go into Abound. Anything sold in Adventuras would come with StarOptions which Marriott wants to minimize.

 

[ocdb8r]

I would assume any unsold Lagunamar inventory will go into Abound. Anything sold in Adventuras would come with StarOptions which Marriott wants to minimize.

The question was about Westin Cancun (the re-purposed resort to the south).

You can add Westin Cancún to that. I’m hoping that it eventually lands into Aventuras but currently hasn’t and will no current plans to finish the remaining conversion. Could that all end up in Abound and not Aventuras?

I know this is in direct sales still....but do we know if any inventory exists that hasn't already been transferred into Aventuras? The have to transfer into the points trust before they sell the points, so I'm wondering what (if anything) had not been put into the trust already. That's all that would be available to MVC to shift to the Abound (DP) trust instead.

In this sense, some of the Vistana trust resorts are safer as absent MVC figuring out a way to move the Vistana trusts themselves into Abound, that inventory is locked up. Anything that was first sold as weeks, MVC can pilfer the resale market (using ROFR) and then start moving those weeks into the Abound (DP) trust.

 

[vacationtime1]

I would assume any unsold Lagunamar inventory will go into Abound. Anything sold in Adventuras would come with StarOptions which Marriott wants to minimize.

The question was about Westin Cancun (the re-purposed resort to the south).

Ooops. But it's the same logic.

 

[byeloe]

pretty sure Lagunamar is sold out

 

[dioxide45]

I would assume any unsold Lagunamar inventory will go into Abound. Anything sold in Adventuras would come with StarOptions which Marriott wants to minimize.

You can add Westin Cancún to that. I’m hoping that it eventually lands into Aventuras but currently hasn’t and will no current plans to finish the remaining conversion. Could that all end up in Abound and not Aventuras?

Any Mexico inventory can't go directly into Abound as Abound is a US real estate trust. It has to go through Aventuras in order to get into Abound or go to an owner of the VOI who can then deposit it into Abound. I expect that Vistana will continue to sell Westin Aventuras for the foreseeable future. If they add The Westin Cancun Resort & Spa to Aventuras, they will continue to sell Aventuras Flex.

 

[ocdb8r]

pretty sure Lagunamar is sold out

Officially yes....but on the last Owners Update I did there after enough pushing back on Aventuras points, magically a week was available. They still get inventory from ROFRs and loan defaults.

 

[dioxide45]

pretty sure Lagunamar is sold out

It was, but I heard about 25% of Lagunamar is in Westin Aventuras and Westin Aventuras is far from sold out.

 

[dioxide45]

Officially yes....but on the last Owners Update I did there after enough pushing back on Aventuras points, magically a week was available. They still get inventory from ROFRs and loan defaults.

Do they have ROFR at Lagunamar? Mostly inventory comes back in through loan and MF default and perhaps owner deedbacks.

 

[ocdb8r]

Any Mexico inventory can't go directly into Abound as Abound is a US real estate trust. It has to go through Aventuras in order to get into Abound or go to an owner of the VOI who can then deposit it into the trust. I expect that Vistana will continue to sell Westin Aventuras for the forsewable future. If they add The Westin Cancun Resort & Spa to Aventruas, they will continue to sell Aventuras Flex.

Good catch @dioxide45 - I forgot this was one of the main impediments to MVC having any Mexico locations; lack of desire to confront this issue by starting their own Mexican trust.

 

[byeloe]

Officially yes....but on the last Owners Update I did there after enough pushing back on Aventuras points, magically a week was available. They still get inventory from ROFRs and loan defaults.

Interesting that they offered you a week. they have only ever offered us Flex

 

[byeloe]

Do they have ROFR at Lagunamar?

no they don't

 

[byeloe]

It was, but I heard about 25% of Lagunamar is in Westin Aventuras and Westin Aventuras is far from sold out.

that sounds about right