Whole House Water Softener

[jas9503]

We are looking at having a whole house water softener/conditioner system installed. We are in the process of receiving quotes. Does anyone know what I should expect to pay for installation? First quote we received was for approximately $2600 - $2800. This is for a system that does auto-regeneration and 40,000 grain capacity. Thanks for your help. Btw: we live in the Houston area if that makes a difference in price.

 

[johnmfaeth]

Not 100% on topic but when we bought a house in the Poconos of PA had the well water tested as a lark as part of a package of tests the inspector did.

Sure enough we discovered a coliform bacteria problem in the well in addition to a couple of minerals over the recommended limits. And of course the water was too hard which we knew already.

Spent $3,000 on a two stage treatment system that removes metals and dissolved minerals as well as a water softening unit.

So far it's worked well.

The coliform issue was quickly solved when they "shocked" the well with bleach and ran the water non-stop for two days after a one day wait. We raised the wellhead above ground level as runoff (and deer droppings) were identified as the contamination source.

My only point is to invest in a water test when doing a house inspection. I was delighted to know and spend the money rather than risking my health.

And if you have well water, it should be tested every few years just in case.

 

[JLB]

That sorta stuff just goes with the territory here. We all have water softeners and most drink other water.

The prices mentioned here seem high, but our water softener came with the house so I don't really know.

 

[teepeeca]

I think the price quote you received was very high. We replaced our water softener system about 2 years ago.

Bought the water softener from Sears for about $370, and I installed it myself. (Don't forget, I "replaced" the water softener.) Originally, when I had the first system installed, it cost less than $100, but will probably be higher now. (Usually, a plumber should be able to install it in less than an hour ---they hook it up to existing pipes, so there is very little additional piping to be done--- just from the softener to the existing pipes.

Our softener has a "brain" and regenerates only when needed, NOT on a set schedule. (Of course, it does have a "manual" regeneration function, if you would want an extra cycle.)

Tony

 

[philemer]

Call Sears and get a quote. They have installers.

 

[Sandy]

Good topic.

We are thinking about getting the same service. Since we moved, we have not yet put in a system. Our first softener was a Culligan (!) and then we had a more modern unit (I think WaterPlant) about 5 years ago. But we left that with the house when we sold.

So I am really interested in what others recommend.

 

[JLB]

The elderly neighbor we have been assisting has Culligan. I noticed his Culligan invoice, for servicing, and his companion sent one home with me to make a copy for the buyers of his house.

The $300 for whatever time period it was seemed excessive.

We dump a couple of $5 bags of salt in ours at the most maybe once a month, and we have not had to repair anything in the nine years we have owned our house.

All of the wells in our area test bad, then you schock them, then they are bad again. Bottled drinking water is just the norm, except for the brave souls who say stuff like, "I've drank it all my life and it never bothered me, bothered me." (Clunk)

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

A couple of factors to consider.

• The salt-type of softeners add a lot of sodium to the water. This can be a major health issue for anyone in the household who needs to restrict sodium intake.
  
• The softened water will be much more corrosive than the previous hard water. If you have iron pipes (common in many older houses), there's a good chance pinhole leaks will develop in the pipes within a few yeas. It's a mess when you have a leaking pipe located inside a wall or a ceiling.

You might want to consider installing demineralizers (not softeners) to treat a portion of the water, then blend that demineralized water back in with untreated water. This will simply dilute the entire dissolved mineral content of the water.

**

Technical note on the difference between a demineralizer and a softener. Hardness is caused by calcium and magnesium salts that are dissolved in the water. Most softeners exchange sodium ions for calcium and magnesium ions. Also, two ions of sodium need to be added for each ion of calcium or magnesium removed. So ion exchange softeners increase the overall salt content of the water and they greatly increase the sodium content.

A demineralizer removes all salts from the water, be they calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, etc. Obviously, demineralizing will cost more. But demineralizing has some great advantages over softening, and doing a blend as I suggest is a way to get many of the benefits of softening, while avoiding or reducing many of the problems, including the sodium related health issues and the corrosion problems.

 

[Sandy]

Steve good info, but

Please could you provide more on the specifics of which name brands to look for when buying a system as you describe.
Thanks.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Please could you provide more on the specifics of which name brands to look for when buying a system as you describe.
Thanks.

Any of the common home water treatment unit companies should be able to put together a system such as I described. Culligan is probably as good a place to start as any.

Demineralizer systems are very common - almost every boiler that produces steam requires a demineralized feed. So purveyors that provide and service that equipment are easy to find. Check your yellow pages.

 

[JLB]

OK, I'll just put this over here on this big pile of other stuff to worry about!

 

[jas9503]

Sodium vs Potassium

The folks who gave me the $2600 quote came by to do a test on our water tonight. Our hardness is 10+ but chlorine is fine. I asked about the sodium issue (this is a concern for us). He said older units did added sodium but newer, modern units added a very minimal amount - they install Fleck system. I know he is trying to make a sale so I don't know how true this statement is. He also said they could install a system that uses potassium instead of sodium. Since sodium is readily available at Sams Club and Home Depot I tend to lean this way, especially if sodium increase is minimal. The water guy also stated that potassium usually costs twice as much as sodium. If refilling the sodium/postassium is not done frequently, potassium may be the way to go.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[WO312]

The folks who gave me the $2600 quote came by to do a test on our water tonight. Our hardness is 10+ but chlorine is fine. I asked about the sodium issue (this is a concern for us). He said older units did added sodium but newer, modern units added a very minimal amount - they install Fleck system. I know he is trying to make a sale so I don't know how true this statement is. He also said they could install a system that uses potassium instead of sodium. Since sodium is readily available at Sams Club and Home Depot I tend to lean this way, especially if sodium increase is minimal. The water guy also stated that potassium usually costs twice as much as sodium. If refilling the sodium/postassium is not done frequently, potassium may be the way to go.

Thanks for the feedback.

As someone said, get a quote from Sears. I have had a number of softeners over the years. Many have been Sears and I have been very happy. My current one is a Sears. It will take either sodium chloride (salt) or potassium chloride . You just have to tell the softener which one you are using. Potassium is NOT twice the expense, but it usually is much harder to find. IIRC, when I do see it, it is in the range of 30% - 50% more expensive.

Make sure you get a better softener with electronic controls. You should be able to get a really good one on sale for $400 - $500. Installation should be in the hundreds of dollars tops. IMHO, you should be able to get what you want for at the VERY most $1,000 installed.

As far as putting less salt in, I think your salesman is confusing the issue. It is true that modern softeners USE less salt during regeneration, but since you are simply exchanging sodium for other minerals, you will still have just as much sodium in your water. If sodium is an issue, use potassium.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

The folks who gave me the $2600 quote came by to do a test on our water tonight. Our hardness is 10+ but chlorine is fine. I asked about the sodium issue (this is a concern for us). He said older units did added sodium but newer, modern units added a very minimal amount - they install Fleck system. I know he is trying to make a sale so I don't know how true this statement is. He also said they could install a system that uses potassium instead of sodium. Since sodium is readily available at Sams Club and Home Depot I tend to lean this way, especially if sodium increase is minimal. The water guy also stated that potassium usually costs twice as much as sodium. If refilling the sodium/postassium is not done frequently, potassium may be the way to go.

Thanks for the feedback.

Sounds to me like you're getting fed a line.

I'd never heard of Fleck, so I Googled it. Fleck is just the brand name for a type of valve used in a water softener brine tank; it's not any particular treatment technology.

Ok - let's run through some numbers here. I'm guessing that when he says you have a hardness scale of 10, that's 10 grains of hardness per gallon. Now, if you soften that water with a sodium exchange process, you will add a minimum of 79 mg/l of sodium to the water.

That is chemistry. I don't care how someone dresses up the process; the minimum amount of sodium that will be added to the water is 79 mg/l. If he has a system that minimizes the amount of sodium added to the water, the most that system could do is reduce the amount of excess sodium that might be added to the water. More likely though, the Fleck system more effectively manages the amount of sodium added during the regeneration cycle - i.e., you simply send less sodium down the drain. But the amount of sodium added to water remains the same.

What's the significance of adding 79 mg/l of sodium to your water?? The US EPA drinking water advisory for sodium in drinking water is 20 mg/L (for individuals on a 500 mg/day restricted sodium diet). The taste threshold for sodium in drinking water is 30-60 mg/l.

I would say that's pretty significant.

****

Another strategy is to demineralize only the water that goes to the hot water heater. Since most of the concern about hardness is with bathing and laundry, and both of those use hot water, demineralizing only the hot water provides softened water to the uses where you want softened water. Uses where hardness is not an issue, such as cooking, toilet flushing, gardening, etc., don't get softened. That saves you money and is better for the environment.

**

Oh - water softened with a salt echanger is a killer for plants. When the only cations in a water are sodium, it really screws up soil chemistry and plants can't take up any nutrients.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Oh, forgot to ask. If you add a home softener system using either sodium or potassium, where will the brine go after you regenerate? City sewer system? Septic tank?

You should think about where it goes. If you're going to send it down a septic tank and you've got a well, that salt could easily go right back into your well. (Your septic tank does recharge groundwater, along with all of your neighbor's septic tanks.) If you send it down a municipal sewer system, you might check with your sewer agency to find out if they permit brine discharges from softening systems. There are quite a few that don't, particularly in the western US.

 

[Liz Wolf-Spada]

All of these posts raise good questions. When we bought our house about 12 years ago, we paid about $3000 or more to get the system installed and it included a reverse osmosis unit in the kitchen for taking the sodium out for cooking and drinking water and watering plants. We have had no trouble with leaking pipes because of it and I think our appliances, including our water heater, have lasted much longer, because our area has very, very hard water. Where we are the water comes from wells that aren't chlorinated and that also had something to do with what kind of system and filters we had to use.
Liz

 

[JLB]

What little I've paid attention to our plumbing, I know that not all our water goes through the water softener. The outside faucets I know don't. I don't know about the cold water for the rest of the house.

Should I go look?

Of course, we don't drink it anyway.

****

Another strategy is to demineralize only the water that goes to the hot water heater. Since most of the concern about hardness is with bathing and laundry, and both of those use hot water, demineralizing only the hot water provides softened water to the uses where you want softened water. Uses where hardness is not an issue, such as cooking, toilet flushing, gardening, etc., don't get softened. That saves you money and is better for the environment.

**

 

[JLB]

As to where our water goes when the softener regenerates, there is a basement drain right next to it but when we bought our house there was pvc pipe running to the outside on top of the basement floor.

One day back when I sorta cared I tried to find out why that was. I discovered that the basement drain was connected to pipe in the concrete floor, which went through the footing and then just stopped. They had not put any tile in for the basement drain to empty into.

So I sorta did that, kinda put a drywell for it to empty into.

The world, and most things in it, is not perfect.

 

[mrsstats]

We have one from Sears. We have a service contract. Whenever we have a problem with the softner it takes months to have it serviced because they only have 1 person in this area that knows anything about the water softner. Make sure they know how to repair it.

 

[jas9503]

I keep remembering more of the conversations with the sales rep as I read through this thread.

Some answers to previous questions:
1. We have pvc
2. city sewer system. Will have to see if there are any city restrictions on sending brine to it.
3. hadn't thought about having it hooked up to only soften water going to the water heater. will look into.
4. We have a sprinker system. The guy would install after the sprinkler system and also put in a hose bib that would use hard water. The other hose bibs would use soft water - which is good for washing cars, but not much else.
5. Already have a reverse osmosis system for drinking water. It sounds like (per Liz) this would take care of the additional sodium in the water.

I've noticed that the big box stores (Home Depot, Sears, etc) sell a water softener that is a single unit. Where as independent dealers sell a 2 tank system. I asked the sales guy what the difference was between his stuff vs Sears. He didn't give too helpful of an answer. His answer was that his valve was a commercial grade vs the consumer grade at Sears. He didn't go into any differences other than say that his best customers previously owned Sears/Home Depot water softeners. Not very helpful on that count. He did tell me that his system should last 10-15 years (usually the electronic parts will give out).

So, does anyone know a good reason why I should not use Sears, Lowes or Home Depot? I know follow-up service could be an issue with these companies, but is the product good? Will it last 10-15 years? Does a single unit cost more to run than a 2 tank system?

Thanks for all the answers and additional questions to ask. I was finding it very difficult to find info on water softening systems from real people (not sales folks or company web sites - i.e. Culligan, Rayne).

Steve, you know your stuff. Great points.

 

[Comitatus]

The Prices mentioned seem to be a bit high for me. When we bought our Whole House Water Softener we got it installed by a technician and he didn't charge us that more and we felt reasonable at that time.

 

[MULTIZ321]

Note, this is a reopening of a thread frpm 2006.


Richard